Here's A Photo Of The Original Cumorah

[Cumorah3]

I've been unable to locate either mountain with Google Earth. I did find the Eastern town that was close by but scanning the area I couldn't locate them by just flying over. Do you have any maps?

I'm not sure if this is right but you could try the following coordinates:

22.783333, -98.6

Here is a map

Larry P

Cerro Bernal sure looks like a land of many waters in that Google map. Especially if you are approaching from the south as probably the Nephites did.

"Corn Hill" of course could be Shim where Mormon picked up the records on the way north for the final battle??

And the ocean is east of Bernal...

[poulsenll]

"Corn Hill" of course could be Shim where Mormon picked up the records on the way north for the final battle??

And the ocean is east of Bernal...

You missed my previous post.

Sorenson and/or Palmer made quite a point that the natives near Cerro Vigia called one of the nearby hills "corn hill" because the accepted meaning of "Shim" is "corn". When (just last week) I discovered that one of the meanings of Tepetzintla was "corn hill", the pieces started to fall into place. Coming from the south, Mormon would have passed by "corn hill" (The Hill Shim) in order to get to "Cerro Bernal"(The Hill Cumorah). In addition, if Mormon grew up near Tepetzintla, he would have been familiar with the area and with the defensive posibilities of Cerro Bernal.

The other problem with the Vigia location is the need to travel north to get to the seashore. But Sorenson got around this by postulating that the Nephites thought that north was really east or that somehow directions did not get translated correctly by Joseph Smith.

Larry P

[Cumorah3]

You missed my previous post.

Sorenson and/or Palmer made quite a point that the natives near Cerro Vigia called one of the nearby hills "corn hill" because the accepted meaning of "Shim" is "corn". When (just last week) I discovered that one of the meanings of Tepetzintla was "corn hill", the pieces started to fall into place. Coming from the south, Mormon would have passed by "corn hill" (The Hill Shim) in order to get to "Cerro Bernal"(The Hill Cumorah). In addition, if Mormon grew up near Tepetzintla, he would have been familiar with the area and with the defensive posibilities of Cerro Bernal.

The other problem with the Vigia location is the need to travel north to get to the seashore. But Sorenson got around this by postulating that the Nephites thought that north was really east or that somehow directions did not get translated correctly by Joseph Smith.

Larry P

Dr. Poulsen!!

Are you admitting then that Bernal's the place????

[Cumorah3]

In addition, if Mormon grew up near Tepetzintla, he would have been familiar with the area and with the defensive posibilities of Cerro Bernal.

The other problem with the Vigia location is the need to travel north to get to the seashore. But Sorenson got around this by postulating that the Nephites thought that north was really east or that somehow directions did not get translated correctly by Joseph Smith. Larry P

Dr. Ainsworth is of the opinion that Mormon (a pure blood aristocrat descended directly from Nephi) grew up in Teotihuacan where he had many high political connections. That is why the Nephites so quickly chose him as a youth to lead their armies.

Remember, when Mormon's dad took him south to further his education among the Nephites he was "carried". Seems like the aristocratic way to travel.

Being of noble blood he would have been highly positioned and highly educated in Teotihuacan which was the politcal center of Mesoamerica at the time. Would he not have known about such features as Cerro Bernal (Cumorah) along the trade routes? Especially if Cumorah was also known to be Ramah and thus historically significant to the Nephite prophets.

Couldn't your postulate about Mormon living in Tepetzintla equally apply to him living in Teotihuacan?

[poulsenll]

Dr. Poulsen!!

Are you admitting then that Bernal's the place????

It is the best fit so far.

Of course one could propose that the hill Shim was located near the City of Veracruz and that Tepetzintla is Cumorah. It may just be coincidence that Tepetzintla means "Corn Hill". After all there is a "corn hill" near Cerro Vigia.

But I really do feel that the area around Tampico is the Land of Cumorah based on the text in the Book of Ether and if that is true then the best fit to Shim and Cumorah is Tepetzintla and Bernal.

Unless the Nephites thought that North was actually south.

[Cumorah3]

It is the best fit so far.

Of course one could propose that the hill Shim was located near the City of Veracruz and that Tepetzintla is Cumorah. It may just be coincidence that Tepetzintla means "Corn Hill". After all there is a "corn hill" near Cerro Vigia.

But I really do feel that the area around Tampico is the Land of Cumorah based on the text in the Book of Ether and if that is true then the best fit to Shim and Cumorah is Tepetzintla and Bernal.

Unless the Nephites thought that North was actually south.

Sorenson, Palmer, et al. move over, this train's a startin' to roll...

I love it when a plan comes together...

Where's Brant now when I need him?

[Programmer]

...

So why dedicated "all...pertinent resources" on something that will not save people's souls?

Because attitudes like that never moved mountains, or accomplished any great thing.

[Smith]

Following on a Google search to try and narrow down some co-ords where to search myself for this location I happened upon these two videos on you tube, Check them out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKtSBPDGMRs...ted&search=

[Cumorah3]

Following on a Google search to try and narrow down some co-ords where to search myself for this location I happened upon these two videos on you tube, Check them out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKtSBPDGMRs...ted&search=

It looks like an interesting vision quest but that may be the wrong Bernal, there are two. I'll check it out further.

[Cold Steel]

Has Sorenson commented on Cerro Bernal as a possible Cumorah site?

Looking at it on Google Earth, Cerro Bernal appears to be the only mountain around and there doesn't seem to be any valleys nearby. It also appears quite a bit to the north in a land that Mormon, or the Nephites, might not have been familiar with. Supply lines would have been longer, too. Cerro Vegia, on the other hand, does have some intriguing points. Whether there was marshland there when the Europeans came doesn't necessarily mean there was marshland there hundreds of years earlier.

Both sites are good picks, though.

[poulsenll]

Has Sorenson commented on Cerro Bernal as a possible Cumorah site?

To my knowledge, Sorenson does not comment on any theory other than his own except in his workbook which is now quite dated.

Looking at it on Google Earth, Cerro Bernal appears to be the only mountain around and there doesn't seem to be any valleys nearby. It also appears quite a bit to the north in a land that Mormon, or the Nephites, might not have been familiar with.

Dont forget that Mormon came from the north where he lived till the age of eleven. He also returned to the Hill Shim, in the north, in order to fulfill his calling from Ammaron to abridge the Nephite records

Supply lines would have been longer, too. Cerro Vegia, on the other hand, does have some intriguing points. Whether there was marshland there when the Europeans came doesn't necessarily mean there was marshland there hundreds of years earlier.

Both sites are good picks, though.

Cold Steel

Estimates of rainfall based on pollen found in sediments and other archeological plant remains suggest that rainfall during BoM times was if anything greater than it is today. This would indicate more marshland rather than less. One of the theories for the fall of the Mayan polities was decreased rainfall folowed by wars fought over the decreased food supply.

Also remember that Mormon was fleeing before the Lamanites and had to depend on finding an area where they could be self sufficient. They had no supply lines from the south or from Zarahemla. This area was under complete control of the Lamanites. I would not be surprized if there were some friendlies in the North though. This may have been a factor in his choice of the Land of Cumorah for a place to prepare for his battle with the Lamanite armies. Remember there was a big exodus of Nephites and Nephite sympathizers at the time of Helaman.

Larry P

[Brant Gardner]

Where's Brant now when I need him?

I'm still around, but as Larry has found out, I don't get too involved in discussions of geography. It isn't my specialty. I suspect that we have the right basic area of the world and I like the connections between archaeology, ethnohistory and the Book of Mormon that come from seeing the Grijalva as Sidon. Other than that, I am interested in how well the cultural data fit.

Find me a Cumorah that fits with the Grijalva River valley as Sidon and I am quite willing to entertain it. Tell me that Teotihuacan was pacifist around 400 A.D. and I'll disagree strongly.

[poulsenll]

Find me a Cumorah that fits with the Grijalva River valley as Sidon and I am quite willing to entertain it. Tell me that Teotihuacan was pacifist around 400 A.D. and I'll disagree strongly.

Brant

For some time I have had serious concerns about placing Cumorah in the SAn Andres Tuxtla mountains. Based on the Book of Ether, the directioanality is all wrong. Using Sorenson's opinion about directional terms in the Book of Mormon, it is barely justifiable but using what I believe is the correct interpretation of directionality in the BoM it just doesnt fit. My other concern with the LGT is that it is way too limiting and cborders on being an attempt to hide and seperate the BoM culture from all other cultures known to have been present in Mesoamerica.

What do you know about the Huastec culture? According to the following site they are a Mixe-Zoque culture that migrated from the south.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huaxtec

I think we need to pay more attention to this area, in particular related to the Jaredites and the location for Ammaron's culture. Although, I agree with you that Teotihuacan was not a peaceful culture in 400 AD, There had to be one somewhere in the north in order to account for Mormon's being chosen by Ammeron to abridge the plates and to be a repository for the Nephite records.

Larry P

[Cold Steel]

Please excuse my ignorance on this matter, but having done some reading on this topic lately, I'm wondering why the Isthmus of Panama isn't the "narrow neck of land"? Certainly the Nephites would have known about it geographically. Why would they call the Isthmus of Tehuantepec that when an even narrower neck of land existed below that? (I notice it's pretty much of a consensus that Tehuantepec is the narrow neck, I just don't know why.)

There also seems to be a disagreement over whether Cumorah was close to the "narrow neck" or further north. Of the two mountains, Cerro Bernal clearly is a more imposing site than Cerro Vejia, and the layout of the terrain would clearly give an advantage to an army holding it. One could have tens of thousands of soldiers on high ground and be able to maneuver them without losing sight -- an obvious advantage.

Are there any other candidates for Cumorah other than the New York location?

[poulsenll]

Please excuse my ignorance on this matter, but having done some reading on this topic lately, I'm wondering why the Isthmus of Panama isn't the "narrow neck of land"? Certainly the Nephites would have known about it geographically. Why would they call the Isthmus of Tehuantepec that when an even narrower neck of land existed below that? (I notice it's pretty much of a consensus that Tehuantepec is the narrow neck, I just don't know why.)

Lets start with Alma 22:32

This verse tells us that the narrow neck divides the land northward from the land southward. If Panama is the Narrow neck then Zarahemla must be somewhere in South America.

Alma 22:27 tells us that Zarahemla is north of the Lamanite territory and that the two lands are seperated by a narrow strip of widerness which stretchs from the east sea to the west sea. From other scripture we can tell that Zarahemla is not that far from the Narrow neck and that Armies could move from one end of the narrow strip of wilderness to the other in a reasonably short period of time.

If Panama were the narrow neck the narrow strip of wilderness would have to stretch from the seashore in Peru to the seashore in Brazil. In order to resolve this problem, one author has suggested that the Amazon basin was filled with sea water at the time of the Nephites. This would require the culture whose ruins have been found in the basin to have existed somehow under water. I dont think so. Another problem is finding a north south river, the Sidon, that empties into a sea to the north and starts in the Narrow strip of wilderness. For that matter finding a narrow strip of wilderness that stretchs from sea to sea is problematic. Sorenson has discussed these problems extensively in both his books on BoM geography in relationship to his choice of the Grijalva river as the river Sidon.

I have done an in depth comparison of the Grijalva river to the all of the geographical descriptions of the river Sidon using 3D Satellite maps along with the detailed NWAF map of the Grijalva river before it was made into a lake in order to provide hydroelectric power. The results are compelling in support of this identity and since it is north of the isthmus of Panama this would eliminate consideration of Panama as the narrow neck

There also seems to be a disagreement over whether Cumorah was close to the "narrow neck" or further north. Of the two mountains, Cerro Bernal clearly is a more imposing site than Cerro Vejia, and the layout of the terrain would clearly give an advantage to an army holding it. One could have tens of thousands of soldiers on high ground and be able to maneuver them without losing sight -- an obvious advantage.

Are there any other candidates for Cumorah other than the New York location?

Mormon had more than four years to gather his people to Cumorah. Other than that, from the Book of Ether, all we know was that it was located on a north-south coastal plain somewhere north of the Narrow neck.

Larry P

[Cold Steel]

It's impossible to determine from the Book of Mormon a large number of questions. This final war was apparently long in coming and was in preparation for years. It's also clear the Lamanites were bent on nothing less than genocide against the Nephites, and except for their raw hatred, it's difficult to find out what was behind it. Most wars are fought for domination, food, wealth, manpower (slaves); however, the war against the Nephites appears to have been unavoidable. No treaties, no recorded negotiations. It's clear there's a great deal of information in the missing plates.

I have to admit that Cerro Bernal has many of the attributes to make it a convincing candidate. It has an imposing nature that Cerro Vejia lacks.

[Cumorah3]

Although, I agree with you that Teotihuacan was not a peaceful culture in 400 AD, There had to be one somewhere in the north in order to account for Mormon's being chosen by Ammaron to abridge the plates and to be a repository for the Nephite records.

Further to a people of peace being in the land northward, the 7th chapter of Moroni is Mormon's discourse on Faith, Hope, and Charity to a group of church members who were pacifists. If not Teotihuacan, then where?

[poulsenll]

Here is a link to a list of Characteristics of the Book of Mormon Cumorah according to Patrick Simiskey

http://poulsenll.org/17points.pdf

I thought some of you might like to see someone elses point of view. He favors a site near the border of Panama and Columbia with the narrow stretch of wilderness coinciding with the border between these two countries. He is actually doing archeological research, in collaboration with a Panamanian Archeologist, in the area to see if there is any evidence to support his choice.

Larry P

[Kevin Christensen]

Cold Steel asks:

I'm wondering why the Isthmus of Panama isn't the "narrow neck of land"? Certainly the Nephites would have known about it geographically. Why would they call the Isthmus of Tehuantepec that when an even narrower neck of land existed below that? (I notice it's pretty much of a consensus that Tehuantepec is the narrow neck, I just don't know why.)

Besides the Grijalva/Sidon corrolation, there is the issue of making sense of the story of Limhi's explorers. These are members of a third generation group living around Nephi after having migrated from Zarahemla, which is in the Land South. For Panama to be the narrow neck, this group, who have likely received their directions to Zarahelma from elderly people still living who made the trek. So they have a reasonable expectation for time and distance. So the trick is, to get through through the narrow neck without knowing that they have gone into the land north, find some ruins they mistake for Zarahelma, and return with the 24 plates of Ether, all the while thinking they had found Zarahelma. The New York Cumorah, South American Land South, Panama Narrow Neck corrolation requires way too much distance, time, climate zones, and river directions for this to make any sense. For instance, just getting to New York, say by following the Mississippi Ohio system for a long long time ought to raise the question of why is this river system flowing south? However, with the Grijalva as Sidon, and the source of the Usamacinta just a few miles from the source of the Grijalva, everything fits reasonably as a matter of one wrong turn in the wilderness, and following the wrong river valley. Larry has a good discussion of the rivers on his website. I have a discussion of the Limhi explorer situation in FR 16:1. Sorenson, Palmer, and others have cited the case of Limhi's explorers as one of the most compelling reasons for a limited geography.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

Kevin C.

[Paul Ray]

I read through this whole thread and I didn't see anyone mention the hill in New York.

I forgot where I read about this, but several prophets have said that one is the right one.

Hasn't anyone else read about that who can cite some good sources to learn from?

[poulsenll]

I read through this whole thread and I didn't see anyone mention the hill in New York.

I forgot where I read about this, but several prophets have said that one is the right one.

Hasn't anyone else read about that who can cite some good sources to learn from?

Paul

Yes several Prophets were of the personal opinion that the hill in NY was tha same as that menteioned in the BoM. Read Kevins article in FARMS Review

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/reviewvo...16&number=1

for reasons why modern consensus and the text of the BoM do not support this conclusion.

Larry P

[Paul Ray]

I read through this whole thread and I didn't see anyone mention the hill in New York.

I forgot where I read about this, but several prophets have said that one is the right one.

Hasn't anyone else read about that who can cite some good sources to learn from?

Paul

Yes several Prophets were of the personal opinion that the hill in NY was tha same as that menteioned in the BoM. Read Kevins article in FARMS Review

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/reviewvo...16&number=1

for reasons why modern consensus and the text of the BoM do not support this conclusion.

Larry P

Uh, which one, and where?

I quickly scanned through both of those documents by Kevin and didn't seem to be about the hill.

Would you give me the title of the document so I will know I am reading the right one?

And btw, I'm particularly interested in reviewing those statements from those prophets who said it was the right hill.

Thank you.

[cdowis]

>I'm particularly interested in reviewing those statements from those prophets who said it was the right hill.

1. We all agree that there is a hill in NY called the "Hill Cumorah". The issue is whether there is also a hill in Mesoamerica by the same name where the last battle was fought. Many of these statements simply call it the Hill Cumorah in regards to where the plates were buried rather than whether it was the location of the last battle.

2. Based on the BOM text, the NY hill simply does not fit.

So, either the BOM is incorrect, or the statements by GAs are incorrect.

Which are you going to choose?

[Paul Ray]

>I'm particularly interested in reviewing those statements from those prophets who said it was the right hill.

1. We all agree that there is a hill in NY called the "Hill Cumorah". The issue is whether there is also a hill in Mesoamerica by the same name where the last battle was fought. Many of these statements simply call it the Hill Cumorah in regards to where the plates were buried rather than whether it was the location of the last battle.

2. Based on the BOM text, the NY hill simply does not fit.

So, either the BOM is incorrect, or the statements by GAs are incorrect.

Which are you going to choose?

I usually try to find harmony between the two.

Why do you or others think the area around the hill in New York just doesn't fit?

Can you cite the sources which show what our Presidents in the Church thought about this?

[thesometimesaint]

Paul Ray:

I usually try to find harmony between the two.

So do I. But as there is no official BoM geography accepted by the Church. We will have plenty of speculation for a while longer.

Why do you or others think the area around the hill in New York just doesn't fit?

A close reading of the geoghraphy, and culture described in the BoM does not fit with anything we know of the area around the N.Y. hill and being The Hill Cumorah of the last battle.

Can you cite the sources which show what our Presidents in the Church thought about this?

Some have thought one way some another. But again there is nothing ofiicial.