Here's A Photo Of The Original Cumorah

[awyatt]

What would happen if BYU focused all of its pertinent resources on finding physical evidences of Nephites in the Americas??

It wouldn't convice a single soul.

Even if you found "welcome to Zarahemla" signs (or "welcome to Cumorah/Ramah"), the critics would still refuse to believe.

So why dedicated "all...pertinent resources" on something that will not save people's souls?

-Allen

[poulsenll]

I did a quick search. Could this be the area you are referring to? La Sierra de Otontepec?

http://mx.geocities.com/gverab1/sierra_de_otontepec/

gaucho

That is it. Thanks for the link. I have been looking for more info about this site, especially for the official name. Tepetzintla means "under or beneath the hill". Although it is meaningles, it is interesting that "ramah" means "hill" or "small mountain".

Interesting that it has been set aside as a national park and that it serves as the principal "Fuente de Agua" for the region.

Mormon 6:4

4 Y ocurri

[Truth]

Among other things about Vejia, Jerry pointed out to me: One of the things that the selection of cerro Vejia does, is place the battle right in the middle of a very large culture which existed there at the time.  It would be the equivalent of the President of the USA saying to the President of Mexico: "We are going to gather our armies on the outskirts of Ottawa, Canada, and there have a final battle about the Reconquista." My guess is that the government of Canada would not be crazy about that idea!  There was a very large culture around Vejia at that time period; there was none around Cumorah3.

Cumorah3, this quote was taken from mormonsites http://mormonsites.org/page3.html what was this other culture?

It seems they would have gotten involved due to a threat to them as well??? But who were they? Thanks.

[poulsenll]

The Huasteca who settled the region of the Otontepec mountains arrived there from the south between 1500 qnd 900 BC

http://www.xxxx.com/s/Huaxtec

They were a group, who were either related to or part of the Olmec culture, who fled to the north.

From the above cited website.

Most scholars propose that this region was inhabited by speakers of the Mixe-Zoque phylum. While speakers of Mixe-Zoque languages are today confined to the mountains of northeast Oaxaca state, along the backbone of the isthmus of Tehuantepec, and into extreme western Chiapas, it is likely that they once occupied the entire Gulf Coast lowland from the isthmus to the Tuxtla mountains

[cinepro]

It wouldn't convice a single soul.

Even if you found "welcome to Zarahemla" signs (or "welcome to Cumorah/Ramah"), the critics would still refuse to believe.

That's quite a blanket statement. While there may be some who would refuse to believe in the face of solid evidence, I know several who would believe. But remember, it is also possible to believe in the historicity of a book without feeling compelled to adhere to it's religious admonitions, even for a book with such a unique origin as the Book of Mormon.

You can't predict how someone will react to evidence for a claim based on how they react to a claim for which there is insufficient evidence.

As for the discussion over whether or not this hill is a Hill Cumorah, I think the logical answer would be "Why not?" Perhaps it's time for a 3 Cumorah Theory. Who knows? 50 years from now, we may have progressed in knowledge and understanding to a 5 or 6 Cumorah Theory.

[poulsenll]

One of the arguments Sorenson puts forward for Cerro Vigia is that there is a hill nearby known locally as "Corn Hill" . He equates this with the HIll Shim which means "corn hill". He also claims that Shim is south of Cumorah.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tepetzintla_(Veracruz)

Tepetzintla es voz de origen Nahuatl formado por dos vocablos, TEPETL - TEPETZIN que significa a su vez CERRO o CERRITOS, y la terminaci

[Cumorah3]

As for the discussion over whether or not this hill is a Hill Cumorah, I think the logical answer would be "Why not?"  Perhaps it's time for a 3 Cumorah Theory.  Who knows?  50 years from now, we may have progressed in knowledge and understanding to a 5 or 6 Cumorah Theory.

Or maybe even a one universal flood theory instead of a thousand local floods perhaps?

[Hawkmoon]

Well, if Hollywood ever needs another location for a re-make of "Close Encounters of the Third Kind," they'll have a suitable "Devil's Tower" south of the border.

lol... that was my first thought as well.

[Cumorah3]

What would happen if BYU focused all of its pertinent resources on finding physical evidences of Nephites in the Americas??

It wouldn't convice a single soul. So why dedicated "all...pertinent resources" on something that will not save people's souls?

As you may be aware, for the past 50 or so years BYU has operated an archaeological research facility in Mexico. (NWAF)

I don't know how much money has been put into operating that site, but my understanding is that all it does is conventional research. Yes, BYU has a reputation for "good science" but how many souls has that saved?

It seems to me that the odds of "saving souls" would be much greater if assets were instead put into finding physical evidences of Nephites. My thinking is that if credible discoveries were made, many more people all over the world would read the Book of Mormon, and some of them would sincerely apply Moroni's spiritual test, and go on to the temples.

Giving NWAF another commission would not be taking away resources that are already being used to "save souls."

But I'm very interested in reading your opinion and that of others on this matter, thanks for contributing.

[Cumorah3]

Among other things about Vejia, Jerry pointed out to me: One of the things that the selection of cerro Vejia does, is place the battle right in the middle of a very large culture which existed there at the time.

[Cold Steel]

It meets a whole lot of criteria. But you can read all about it if you care to: http://mormonsites.org/page5.html#series

I read the link, but I'm still a bit confused.

Which hill do you believe is "the" hill Cumorah? You said that Dr. Ainsworth chose to reveal the actual location, but if he did, I somehow missed it. You posted two photos. Are they the same mountain?

[poulsenll]

It meets a whole lot of criteria. But you can read all about it if you care to: http://mormonsites.org/page5.html#series

I read the link, but I'm still a bit confused.

Which hill do you believe is "the" hill Cumorah? You said that Dr. Ainsworth chose to reveal the actual location, but if he did, I somehow missed it. You posted two photos. Are they the same mountain?

Both pictures are of the same "Cerro Bernal" It is located to the west of Tampico about halfway to the main mountain range. If you download "Google Earth" You can see satellite views of it from all sides.

Larry P

[Cumorah3]

It meets a whole lot of criteria. But you can read all about it if you care to: http://mormonsites.org/page5.html#series

I read the link, but I'm still a bit confused.

Which hill do you believe is "the" hill Cumorah? You said that Dr. Ainsworth chose to reveal the actual location, but if he did, I somehow missed it. You posted two photos. Are they the same mountain?

As it is with the Old Testament, if you don't read the very last verse you'll go through life missing out on a lot.

Here's the final paragraph in Jerry's three part series:

"I believe the best candidate for the land of Cumorah, is the area of Tampico, Mexico, and the best candidate for the hill Cumorah, is Cerro Bernal. Cerro Bernal is about seventy miles west of Tampico, and is located by the Mexican city of Ciudad Mante."

Yes, as Larry just pointed out, the two photos I posted are of the same hill, just at different distances.

I was actually concentrating on using a video camera at the time, the digital snaps were just an afterthought.

[Cold Steel]

Is your confidence pretty high that this is it? I just got Google Earth. What do I type in to get to it? Thanks!

[poulsenll]

Is your confidence pretty high that this is it? I just got Google Earth. What do I type in to get to it? Thanks!

Cold Steel

I dont know what you can type in. I use the scroll bars and zoom control to zoom in on it. I'm not that familiar with Google Earths search functions since I use another program to do searches, get the coordinites and then use Google Earth for high resolution satellite views.

All of the geographic data in the text of the Book of Ether support this general location. For instance , several times it describes the need to go east to reach the seashore. This would presume a north-south oriented eastern coast and this only occurs in the northern part of the state of Veracruz and from Tampico to Matamoros in the state of Tamoulipas. After searching this area with Google earth, these two are the more obvious locations that meet the description in the text.

Larry P

[Cumorah3]

Is your confidence pretty high that this is it?

Dr. Ainsworth's confidence is very high. However, proving anything is not going to be easy, especially when the pros will not engage.

We have a few things in for dating now from the initial scouting trip, but it's a very expensive and time consuming process. I'll post results on the Mormon Sites Website when they come in.

What we're looking for, obviously, is dates that come in around 385 A.D. the date of the final Nephite battles. Finding that would not be absolute proof of anything of course, but it would certainly encourage us to look around a whole lot more.

[Cold Steel]

Is this mountain accessible for exploration? It seems to have plenty of room for the large battles. From your drawings of your proposed Book of Mormon area, it seems very small. It takes some adjustment going from North and South America to a much more limited view although, looking back, it's obvious that the larger view wasn't likely.

Sounds exciting. Hope you can get into the area and do what you need to do. It's a big job. Does anyone else think this might be the hill?

[Cumorah3]

Is this mountain accessible for exploration? It seems to have plenty of room for the large battles. From your drawings of your proposed Book of Mormon area, it seems very small. It takes some adjustment going from North and South America to a much more limited view although, looking back, it's obvious that the larger view wasn't likely.

Sounds exciting. Hope you can get into the area and do what you need to do. It's a big job. Does anyone else think this might be the hill?

I don't claim to have made any "drawings" maybe that was someone else, or maybe your comments were not directed to me.

I would not recommend to anyone that they try to explore that hill at this time. The road access is protected by armed guards, and the hill can be very treacherous and life threatening.

[Cumorah3]

Does anyone else think this might be the hill?

I stand to be corrected by someone who was involved, but my understanding is that several decades ago a group of LDS scholars came up with two candidates for the most likely location of the original Ramah Cumorah. The first one was Cerro Vejia, it was proposed by John Sorenson. That location is still the most widely accepted among LDS scholars, but to my knowledge no digs have taken place there.

The second proposal was Cerro Bernal which is the one Dr. Ainsworth has chosen to investigate.

Dr. Ainsworth is a Yale graduate with a doctorate, but he is not a credentialed archaeologist or anthropologist. Because of the latter he is able to cut some corners in the field that are difficult for professionals associated with a university to do.

He is almost certain that Cerro Bernal is the right place and is currently working on finding and proving physical evidence.

[Irondukesteve]

And what happens when Zelph's brother is found near the site?

Do not ridicule please. -mods

[Cold Steel]

I've been unable to locate either mountain with Google Earth. I did find the Eastern town that was close by but scanning the area I couldn't locate them by just flying over. Do you have any maps?

[Irondukesteve]

I really struggle to get interested in New World Geography for the BoM. It is so speculative and has been going on for years with no result. Even though I waste my time studying history of saints, and the masonic origins of the temple endowment I just really feel i waste my time speculating BoM geography in the New World.

[Brant Gardner]

The first one was Cerro Vejia, it was proposed by John Sorenson.

I don't have first-hand knowledge, but I thought that it was David Palmer who came up with Cerro Vejia. I know he argued for it in his book In Search of Cumorah. Of course he referenced Sorenson's geography, but I believe I remember Sorenson citing Palmer on the hill. Not that it matters much.

[Cumorah3]

I don't have first-hand knowledge, but I thought that it was David Palmer who came up with Cerro Vejia. I know he argued for it in his book In Search of Cumorah. Of course he referenced Sorenson's geography, but I believe I remember Sorenson citing Palmer on the hill. Not that it matters much.

It was quite possibly David Palmer rather than Sorenson who first chose Vejia. But I agree with you that it doesn't matter, because the real Hill Cumorah was Cerro Bernal all along.

[poulsenll]

I've been unable to locate either mountain with Google Earth. I did find the Eastern town that was close by but scanning the area I couldn't locate them by just flying over. Do you have any maps?

Here is a map

Larry P