Here's A Photo Of The Original Cumorah

[cinepro]

Here is another interesting artifact to add to the discussion. I honestly wonder if it is authentic or not; if anyone knows, please share:

[poulsenll]

With all due respect, can you support that statement? As far as I know, Moroni never referred to the hill in New York as "The Hill Cumorah," and Joseph Smith only referred to it as "Cumorah" after long usage by other people had made "Cumorah" the established name of the hill in New York. I am unaware of any statement by Joseph that the hill in New York is the hill referenced in the Book of Mormon.

Let me put this simply:

What did Joseph Fielding Smith teach about this?

Do you agree or not agree?

There is no other option... if you know.

If you don't know I think you know how to know how to know.

Joseph Fielding Smith was only The Prophet" and thus Spokesman for the entire Church from 1970 to 1972.

Prior to that time he spoke for himself and not for the Church. As I pointed out previously, while serving as an Apostle, Bruce R McConkie expressed opinions which he was required to retract after later revelation proved him to be incorrect. Until such revelation occurs, in the case of Book of Mormon geography, there is no doctrinal support for any proposed theory of Book of Mormon geography, including mine, JFSs or anyone elses.

Larry P

Do you know how to receive revelation?

It ain't that hard.

And to show you that I am still listening:

Were the teachings from JFS ever retracted, or corrected?

... by anyone who has the authority to do that, I mean?

If not then I do not see why you should dismiss them.

Paul

I dont dismiss them, I just dont see them as any better or doctrinal than any other theory.

In the D&C we are told that in order to recieve revelation, we are to study it out in our minds and then pray abought it. To study it out means to consider all aspects of the question that are availble to us. Not just read one man's opinion and pray to get a warm feeling that his opinion agrees with our own. In this case, the primary resource available to us is the Book of Mormon itself.

I might ask if you have compared what the Book of Mormon says about the Hill Cumorah with the hill in New York. In Ether we are told that it(Ramah Cumorah) is near the East Sea. It is also north of the "narrow strip of wilderness" that stretches from the east sea to the west sea. Even if you consider the Great Lakes to be these seas, the New York hill is still South not North of any east-west strip of wilderness that can be drawn between these seas.

Study Alma 22:27-35 and then pray about it.

Larry P

[thesometimesaint]

cinepro:

I know you and I have disagreed on this before. But I know of nowhere "The Doctrines of Salvation" has been accepted by the Church as binding on the Church. To me it is no more Accepted and Binding on the Church by the Church than the writtings of Hugh Nibley.

[SolarPowered]

Here is another interesting artifact to add to the discussion. I honestly wonder if it is authentic or not; if anyone knows, please share:

1. Yes, it is authentic, and

2. Bro. Watson subsequently sent out another letter admitting that he had erred in sending out the original letter, and stated that the Church has no official position of BoM geography.

[Paul Ray]

Were the teachings from JFS ever retracted, or corrected?

... by anyone who has the authority to do that, I mean?

If not then I do not see why you should dismiss them.

Essentially, yes. A recent thread goes into long discussion about a letter from President Hinckley's office stating that the Church has no official position on Book of Mormon geography. (I think the thread had a name something like "Now there can be no doubt--Book of Mormon Cumorah located in New York.")

Stating "we have no official position on Book of Mormon geography" doesn't mean we know nothing about where things happened during that time period.

Do you recall what he said regarding what we teach about how we can become gods?

As cunning as a serpent yet as harmless as a dove.

I love that man. Now HE is a PROPHET!!!

[thesometimesaint]

Paul Ray:

What time frame?

During BoM times. I see NO evidence that it took places in western N.Y.

During our times?

Lots of personal speculations. NO Scripture.

[Paul Ray]

Do you know how to receive revelation?

It ain't that hard.

And to show you that I am still listening:

Were the teachings from JFS ever retracted, or corrected?

... by anyone who has the authority to do that, I mean?

If not then I do not see why you should dismiss them.

For those who are trying to follow along, here is the problem.

In the 1950's, someone asked Joseph Fielding Smith, then an apostle, about the possibility that there were two Cumorah's. His response was printed in the Church News section of the Deseret News, and then reprinted and published in his seminal book "Personal Opinions about Church Stuff, Subject To Correction by Future Scholars".

Actually, the book is called "Doctrines of Salvation". So here is what an Apostle of the Church (who was also the Church Historian) had to say in a book called "Doctrines of Salvation"

SPECULATION ABOUT BOOK OF MORMON GEOGRAPHY. Within recent years there has arisen among certain students of the Book of Mormon a theory to the effect that within the period covered by the Book of Mormon, the Nephites and Lamanites were confined almost entirely within the borders of the territory comprising Central America and the southern portion of Mexicoâ??the isthmus of Tehauntepec probably being the "narrow neck" of land spoken of in the Book of Mormon rather than the isthmus of Panama.

This theory is founded upon the assumption that it was impossible for the colony of Lehi's to multiply and fill the hemisphere within the limits of 1,000 years, or from the coming of Lehi from Jerusalem to the time of the destruction of the Nephites at the Hill Cumorah. Moreover, they claim that the story in the Book of Mormon of the migrations, building of cities, and the wars and contentions, preclude the possibility of the people spreading over great distances such as we find within the borders of North and South America....

LOCALE OF CUMORAH, RAMAH, AND RIPLIANCUM. This modernistic theory of necessity, in order to be consistent, must place the waters of Ripliancum and the Hill Cumorah some place within the restricted territory of Central America, notwithstanding the teachings of the Church to the contrary for upwards of 100 years. Because of this theory some members of the Church have become confused and greatly disturbed in their faith in the Book of Mormon. It is for this reason that evidence is here presented to show that it is not only possible that these places could be located as the Church has held during the past century, but that in very deed such is the case. It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all." Mormon adds: "And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites."

EARLY BRETHREN LOCATE CUMORAH IN WESTERN NEW YORK. It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery. Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history....

NEPHITE AND JAREDITE WARS IN WESTERN NEW YORK. In the face of this evidence coming from the Prophet Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and David Whitmer, we cannot say that the Nephites and Lamanites did not possess the territory of the United States and that the Hill Cumorah is in Central America. Neither can we say that the great struggle which resulted in the destruction of the Nephites took place in Central America. If Zelph, a righteous man, was fighting under a great prophet-general in the last battles between the Nephites and Lamanites; if that great prophet-general was known from the Rocky Mountains to 'the Hill Cumorah or eastern sea,' then some of those battles, and evidently the final battles did take place within the borders of what is now the United States....

CUMORAH ONCE SITE OF CARNAGE AND DESTRUCTION. As I stood upon the summit of the Hill Cumorah, in the midst of a vast multitude, only a few of whom belonged to the Church, I tried to picture the scenes of former days. Here were assembled vast armies filled with bitterness and bent on destruction....

IMPORTANCE OF CUMORAH UNKNOWN TO WORLD. . . ."Here it was that Moroni, commanded by the Lord, hid up the sacred records of his people. Here it was. 1,400 years later, that he, then a resurrected being, came to Joseph Smith and committed these same records to the young man's care. At the time of the Prophet's first visit to the hill, it was covered with trees; today (1923) it is stripped and bare, save for the grass which grows abundantly. " (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, Bookcraft, 1956, p.232-43. Emphasis added)

Awesome. Thank you, cinepro. That's exactly what I was thinking of.

And yes, I am repeating it. I know beyond doubt this is true.

[cinepro]

cinepro:

I know you and I have disagreed on this before. But I know of nowhere "The Doctrines of Salvation" has been accepted by the Church as binding on the Church. To me it is no more Accepted and Binding on the Church by the Church than the writtings of Hugh Nibley.

Sorry for any misunderstaning, but I actually agree with you that Joseph Fielding Smith probably didn't know what he was talking about.

I also agree that "Doctrines of Salvation" isn't "binding" on the Church, but then again, I don't really think the theory of historicity for the Book of Mormon is "binding" upon the Church either I think that's another example if misunderstanding by some leaders being misunderstood and blown out of proportion by subsequent leaders, and I predict it will be the scholars that will one day (probably 50-100 years from now) lead us all into the light, with "fundamentalist" LDS kicking and screaming, just as some still cling to antiquated notions of one Cumorah, a global flood, or a 7,000 year temporal existence for the Earth.

So I'm with you about Joseph Fielding Smith being wrong!

[thesometimesaint]

cinepro:

Agreed.

[poulsenll]

Do you know how to receive revelation?

It ain't that hard.

And to show you that I am still listening:

Were the teachings from JFS ever retracted, or corrected?

... by anyone who has the authority to do that, I mean?

If not then I do not see why you should dismiss them.

Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery. Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history....

Awesome. Thank you, cinepro. That's exactly what I was thinking of.

And yes, I am repeating it. I know beyond doubt this is true.

Paul

I also know beyond a doubt that the Hill Cumorah in New York is the place where Moroni buried the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated and where the Angel Moroni delivered them to Joseph Smith.

This says nothing about the Cumorah of the last battles spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

Larry P

[Paul Ray]

I predict it will be the scholars that will one day (probably 50-100 years from now) lead us all into the light, with "fundamentalist" LDS kicking and screaming, just as some still cling to antiquated notions of one Cumorah, a global flood, or a 7,000 year temporal existence for the Earth.

So I'm with you about Joseph Fielding Smith being wrong!

I'd rather believe you are being sarcastic, than believe what you're actually saying, but oh well.

You can believe whatever you want to believe.

And btw, just to touch on some more points, while I'm here.

I believe the hill in New York is the hill where Moroni hid the records and the one near where he died... but that doesn't mean I believe there was or is only one hill in the world named Cumorah.

I believe there was a flood which covered the land or earth where Noah lived... but not necessarily over the whole earth. There's a difference between earth and Earth. Do you know what I mean?

And I believe the Earth will be around as it is 7,000 years from the time Adam was placed on this Earth... but that doesn't mean I believe the Earth didn't exist for a long time before Adam.

Still having fun?

[SolarPowered]

I feel that it might be useful to add some context here about the BoM actually says. It appears that the early Saints didn't read carefully, and came away with an impression which is the opposite of what the record says:

...behold I, Mormon... having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

Mormon did not hide up the plates of the BoM in the hill Cumorah. In fact, of all the records he had, the Book of Mormon is the only record that he specifically says that he didn't hide up in Cumorah.

The early Saints simply assumed that the hill in New York is Cumorah, and from that assumption we eventually get to the current confusion.

Edit to add:

I believe the hill in New York is the hill where Moroni hid the records and the one near where he died... but that doesn't mean I believe there was or is only one hill in the world named Curomah.

You posted while I was typing. It appears that you are saying more-or-less the same thing as I just posted?

[Paul Ray]

Do you know how to receive revelation?

It ain't that hard.

And to show you that I am still listening:

Were the teachings from JFS ever retracted, or corrected?

... by anyone who has the authority to do that, I mean?

If not then I do not see why you should dismiss them.

Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery. Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history....

Awesome. Thank you, cinepro. That's exactly what I was thinking of.

And yes, I am repeating it. I know beyond doubt this is true.

Paul

I also know beyond a doubt that the Hill Cumorah in New York is the place where Moroni buried the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated and where the Angel Moroni delivered them to Joseph Smith.

This says nothing about the Cumorah of the last battles spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

Larry P

I know. As I understand things, you think and believe there are different hills.

Do you know I believe you can believe what you want to believe?

I feel that it might be useful to add some context here about the BoM actually says. It appears that the early Saints didn't read carefully, and came away with an impression which is the opposite of what the record says:

...behold I, Mormon... having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

Mormon did not hide up the plates of the BoM in the hill Cumorah. In fact, of all the records he had, the Book of Mormon is the only record that he specifically says that he didn't hide up in Cumorah.

The early Saints simply assumed that the hill in New York is Cumorah, and from that assumption we eventually get to the current confusion.

Edit to add:

I believe the hill in New York is the hill where Moroni hid the records and the one near where he died... but that doesn't mean I believe there was or is only one hill in the world named Curomah.

You posted while I was typing. It appears that you are saying the more-or-less the same thing as I just posted?

According to the facts stated, I can see Mormon hid up all the plates except for the ones he gave Moroni.

But that doesn't mean it's not possible that Moroni later put them there in that hill... and I believe he did.

Woo hoo!!!

I'm moving upon the waters now!

Look out world, here I come!

Oops.

Sorry.

I guess I got carried away just a little bit there.

[SolarPowered]

But that doesn't mean it's not possible that Moroni later put them there in that hill... like I know he did.

OK. And what indication does Moroni give that he came back to put the records in that same hill, after roaming around with them for several decades?

[Paul Ray]

But that doesn't mean it's not possible that Moroni later put them there in that hill... like I know he did.

OK. And what indication does Moroni give that he came back to put the records in that same hill, after roaming around with them for several decades?

What indication did Moroni give that he had them for "several decades"?

That's a new one on me.

Are you trying to tell me you receive revelations, or something?

[Cold Steel]

Let me put this simply: What did Joseph Fielding Smith teach about this?

He taught that the New York hill was the Book of Mormon Cumorah.

Do you agree or not agree?

Of course not.

If you don't know I think you know how to know how to know.

And what if the Lord chooses not to reveal it? Does not the Lord speak about expediency when seeking knowledge in some matters? When Joseph Smith sought to know the time of the Lord's second coming, was he told the date and time? If not, then why conclude that God will answer questions about Book of Mormon geography?

[SolarPowered]

But that doesn't mean it's not possible that Moroni later put them there in that hill... like I know he did.

OK. And what indication does Moroni give that he came back to put the records in that same hill, after roaming around with them for several decades?

What indication did Moroni give that he had them for "several decades"?

That's a new one on me.

Are you trying to tell me you receive revelations, or something?

The Book of Mormon. My recollection is that he was wandering with them for 35 years, but I just said "several decades" in case I had the wrong number.

Checking the footnotes in my BoM, Mormon hid up the other records in Cumorah in 385 AD, and Moroni still was wandering around with the Book of Mormon in 421 AD. After that many years of wandering, he could have been anywhere in the Americas. There is no reason to expect that he would have returned to Curmorah to bury them. Indeed, it is reasonable to suppose the that Lord would have had him bury them where they would be readily accessible to where He knew that Joseph Smith would eventually be.

[Paul Ray]

And what if the Lord chooses not to reveal it?

And what if the Lord revealed it but you don't believe it?

Does not the Lord speak about expediency when seeking knowledge in some matters?

Yes.

When Joseph Smith sought to know the time of the Lord's second coming, was he told the date and time?

No.

If not, then why conclude that God will answer questions about Book of Mormon geography?

Or then why conclude that God would not?

When God does reveal [something] to the world do you know who God has then revealed it to?

I like those shoes you're wearing. Are those new? Where'd you get 'em?

Just wondering.

[poulsenll]

But that doesn't mean it's not possible that Moroni later put them there in that hill... like I know he did.

OK. And what indication does Moroni give that he came back to put the records in that same hill, after roaming around with them for several decades?

What indication did Moroni give that he had them for "several decades"?

That's a new one on me.

Are you trying to tell me you receive revelations, or something?

Paul

It requires no revelation, only a careful reading of the Book of Mormon.

Mormion buried the majority of the records except for those few he gave to Moroni in the year 384. after which the last battle was fought.

Mormon 6:5-6

5 And when three hundred and eighty and four years had passed away, we had gathered in all the remainder of our people unto the land of Cumorah.

6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would bdestroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

Moroni sealed up and buried the plates in New York in the year 420

Moroni 10:1-2

Now I, Moroni, write somewhat as seemeth me good; and I write unto my brethren, the Lamanites; and I would that they should know that more than four hundred and twenty years have passed away since the sign was given of the coming of Christ.

2 And I seal up these records, after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you.

A difference of 36 years by my calculation. During this time, he says he wandered

Moroni 1:3

3 And I, Moroni, will not adeny the Christ; wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life.

I seriously doubt that he would have stayed in the vicenity of the Hill Cumorah which was in the control of the Lamanites who sought to kill him for 35 years. Granted, he may have returned at a later date but there is no indication that he did or that it was a necessity for doing so.

Larry P

[Paul Ray]

But that doesn't mean it's not possible that Moroni later put them there in that hill... like I know he did.

OK. And what indication does Moroni give that he came back to put the records in that same hill, after roaming around with them for several decades?

What indication did Moroni give that he had them for "several decades"?

That's a new one on me.

Are you trying to tell me you receive revelations, or something?

The Book of Mormon. My recollection is that he was wandering with them for 35 years, but I just said "several decades" in case I had the wrong number.

Checking the footnotes in my BoM, Mormon hid up the other records in Cumorah in 385 AD, and Moroni still was wandering around with the Book of Mormon in 421 AD. After that many years of wandering, he could have been anywhere in the Americas. There is no reason to expect that he would have returned to Curmorah to bury them. Indeed, it is reasonable to suppose the that Lord would have had him bury them where they would be readily accessible to where He knew that Joseph Smith would eventually be.

Thank you. I hadn't put those pieces together about Moroni's age before.

And the reason I do "believe" (edited from "know" because my testimony on this isn't quite as strong as on some other things) Moroni eventually buried his records in the same hill where Mormon had buried his records is because I do know Moroni was given charge or responsibility over all of the records Mormon had and I also know Moroni came back for them and took them away after allowing Joseph Smith to translate some of them.

So there.

Do you have any gum or candy? I am totally out.

[SolarPowered]

And the reason I do "believe" (edited from "know" because my testimony on this isn't quite as strong as on some other things) Moroni eventually buried his records in the same hill where Mormon had buried his records is because I do know Moroni was given charge or responsibility over all of the records Mormon had and I also know Moroni came back for them and took them away after allowing Joseph Smith to translate some of them.

So there.

Do you have any gum or candy? I am totally out.

Nothing about what you just said would require or even suggest that the place where Moroni buried the BoM was the Cumorah of the Jaredites and Nephites..

No gum. I have some chocolate chips. Perhaps if I put them in the cup-holder on my computer I can ftp them to you...

[Paul Ray]

And the reason I do "believe" (edited from "know" because my testimony on this isn't quite as strong as on some other things) Moroni eventually buried his records in the same hill where Mormon had buried his records is because I do know Moroni was given charge or responsibility over all of the records Mormon had and I also know Moroni came back for them and took them away after allowing Joseph Smith to translate some of them.

So there.

Do you have any gum or candy? I am totally out.

Nothing about what you just said would require or even suggest that the place where Moroni buried the BoM was the Cumorah of the Jaredites and Nephites..

I know. Not in and of itself. Facts without faith is really nothing more than pure logic alone.

No gum. I have some chocolate chips. Perhaps if I put them in the cup-holder on my computer I can ftp them to you...

Okay, yeah, I'm ready, go for it!

I just went to the store downstairs, though, so please don't feel bad if it won't work.

[SolarPowered]

Facts without faith is really nothing more than pure logic alone.

But faith in a false principle is of little or no efficacy.

[Paul Ray]

Facts without faith is really nothing more than pure logic alone.

But faith in a false principle is of little or no efficacy.

Perhaps you still don't understand me.

The point is not to assure ourselves but to receive an assurance from God.

I agree that faith (or an assurance) of a false principle is of little or no efficacy, but God won't ever give us a false assurance.

If God assures us of something, it's true, and that's all there is to it.

[SolarPowered]

The point is not to assure ourselves but to receive an assurance from God.

I agree that faith (or an assurance) of a false principle is of little or no efficacy, but God won't ever give us a false assurance.

If God assures us of something, it's true, and that's all there is to it.

I think a lady I know who has had about two dozen guys tell her that it has been revealed to them that they should get married would have quite an interesting reaction to what you've just said...