Question about Book of Mormon Geography

[Sargon]

I have a question about a very specific piece of Book of Mormon geography.

King Limhi, ruling his small population of oppressed Nephites under Lamanite rule in the land of Nephi, sent an exploratory party to find Zarahemla. Along the way the party got lost, didn't find Zarahemla, and wound up traveling into the land northward and stumbling into Jaredite remains. (Mosiah 21:25-27)

According to Brant Gardner, this party must have confused which river they were supposed to follow. Instead of following the Sidon (Grijalva) they took the Usumacinta, whose head was located only 1 mile away. Larry Poulsen demonstrates this geography here.

My question is, how did the exploring party travel completely across Nephi territory without running into any Nephite settlements? According Sorenson, there was approximately 100 miles of controlled Nephite territory plus 80 miles of uncotrolled territory between the city of Zarahemla and the narrow neck of land (where Jaredite remains were found). King Limhi's explorers would have had to cross that expanse, following a river, without running into a single Nephite. Sorenson also suggests that this 100 mile expanse of Nephite territory would have been a densely populated rural Nephite area outside of the city.

Even in the more rural parts of deep Nephite territory, wouldn't townships be more frequent along a river? If King Limhi's party were traveling along a river (even one that is not the mighty Sidon) shouldn't we expect them to run into Nephite settlements at some point? Instead, they somehow miss seeing any Nephite settlements and travel straight through the Nephite nation and into Jaredite lands to the north.

Thanks.

[thesometimesaint]

Sargon:

Not necessarily. Nephite territory probably included long stretches of jungle. Where even today you can walk fifty feet from someone an never know they're there.

[cdowis]

NonNephite, uncivilized settlements were along the river, but they would hold little interest for those seeking the Nephites. It is only when they came across the remains of a major civilization that they brought back those written artifacts.

Were these the remains of the Nephites? they wondered.

[Olavarria]

It begs the questian, how many Nephite settlements or cities were there at this time, and spreadout were they during Linhi's time? How many Nephite settlements or cities were there at Zeniff's time, and how spreadout were they during Zeniff's time?

They were looking for Zerahemla.....why Zerahemla and not some other place?

As I read the BoM, it seems to me that there wasnt a "Nephite Nation" as in the USA, but rather a collection of loosly confederated city states that where ruled by rulers which claimed a common ancestor: Nephi.

It seems to me that they were looking for Zerahemla because that is were they(Zeniff/Noah/Limhi) were from.

[Sargon]

It begs the questian, how many Nephite settlements or cities were there at this time? They were looking for Zerahemla.....why Zerahemla and not some other place?

Well, the generation immediately preceding the explorers had left Zarahemla in search of the "land of first inheritance," where Nephi and his family had originally settled. A generation later they found themselves living in the land of Nephi (the nation of the Lamanites) under oppressive rule. They thought they might try to secretly find Zarahemla to ask for help. They tried to retrace their steps back to Zarahemla, but picked the wrong river to follow and ended up crossing through more rural Nephite country. Nevertheless, one would think that somewhere along the river they would run into a Nephite settlement.

The city of Zarehemla controlled a region simply called the "land of Zarahemla." According to Sorenson, the river Sidon flowed north from Zarehemla and then northeast. If they took the Usamacinta instead, as Gardner believes, they would have ended up on the northeast coast, just east of the mouth of the River Sidon. In order to get to Jaredite country, at some point they would have had to leave the Usumacinta, traveling west/northwest and eventually crossing the Sidon and crossing through what Sorenson calls "the most important settlement area" of the Land of Zarahemla (Ancient American Setting, pg 10).

Surely they must have run into someone, even if it were non-Nephites living nearby. Surely whoever they ran into must have known where the nearby great city of Zarehemla was.

This is a pretty technical question, and one that requires some background understanding of BoM geography, something which I barely have a handle on.

[Olavarria]

Surely whoever they ran into must have known where the nearby great city of Zarehemla was.

Assuming:

1)"Whoever" and the Zeniffites actually dialogued with each other

2)"Whoever" actually new where the place was.

Nephi(Kaminaljuyu) is in Mayan speaking territory. Whereas as Zerahemla(Santa Rosa) is in Zoquean territory. For all we know, "whoever" were simple mayan speaking hunters and gatherers who didnt know anything about the other cultures cities.

This is assuming they did run into "whoever".

[Sargon]

Assuming:

1)"Whoever" and the Zeniffites actually dialogued with each other

2)"Whoever" actually new where the place was.

Nephi(Kaminaljuyu) is in Mayan speaking territory. Whereas as Zerahemla(Santa Rosa) is in Zoquean territory. For all we know, "whoever" were simple mayan speaking hunters and gatherers who didnt know anything about the other cultures cities.

This is assuming they did run into "whoever".

Well, as far as I can tell, those are assumptions we are forced to make. They just don't seem very likely to me. The Zeniffites should have known and spoken the language of the Zoquean, for they themselves were from there. If they were lost, of course they would have asked anyone they saw for directions (unless they suspected that they were in Lamanite territory, which is close to impossible seeing as they knew they were traveling directly away from it).

[cdowis]

Surely they must have run into someone, even if it were non-Nephites living nearby. Surely whoever they ran into must have known where the nearby great city of Zarehemla was.

"Excuse me, but can you tell me where Zarahemla is."

"!Zxyyed# hatahr?"

"Huh?"

We are not in Kansas anymore. (Wizard of Oz)

[Olavarria]

The Zeniffites should have known and spoken the language of the Zoquean, for they themselves were from there.

Maybe, maybe not. My Great Great Grandfather was a Basque from the Basque country in Spain. No one in my family, not even his surviving grandkids speak Basque today.

Dunno. Zeniff, if I recall, was descendant of those people that came from Nephi(Kaminaljuyu). He kept calling it the land of their first inheritance. And Limhi was almost certainly born and raised there. If Limhi's failed diplomatic group met people living on either side of the Usumacinta River then they would be speaking to them in Mayan........I guess.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/...0#ref=ref583444

If they were lost, of course they would have asked anyone they saw for directions (unless they suspected that they were in Lamanite territory, which is close to impossible seeing as they knew they were traveling directly away from it).

Hmmm, that bears investigation. Who was living on either of the two banks of the Usumacinta River during the time of Limhi? Population? Development? To what extent did these people venture out of this area? To what extent did they interact with Zoquean speakers from the Chiapas, Santa Rosa area?

I still dont know if its good to assume that ancient mesoamerican travel was like it is today? "Do you know were Bolsa Chica beach is? Ya, over there homes."

I wish Grant or Larry were here.

[Brant Gardner]

The city of Zarehemla controlled a region simply called the "land of Zarahemla." According to Sorenson, the river Sidon flowed north from Zarehemla and then northeast. If they took the Usamacinta instead, as Gardner believes, they would have ended up on the northeast coast, just east of the mouth of the River Sidon. In order to get to Jaredite country, at some point they would have had to leave the Usumacinta, traveling west/northwest and eventually crossing the Sidon and crossing through what Sorenson calls "the most important settlement area" of the Land of Zarahemla (Ancient American Setting, pg 10).

Timing and locations are important considerations. At this period, there does not appear to be Nephite extenstions into the gulf coast region (though it appears in the next generation when Captain Moroni is reinforcing the area). Secondly, the Olmec influence extended to the lower Usumacinta. The Limhite band might not have needed to move farther up the coast to the larger Olmec cities, though they might have.

Surely they must have run into someone, even if it were non-Nephites living nearby. Surely whoever they ran into must have known where the nearby great city of Zarehemla was.

The two rivers are in two different valley systems. Each was populated, with the Usumacinta seeing a later blossoming (and would become the more important center of the two rivers). There were arch rivals only 30k from each other, over less strenuous terrain than the mountains. I see most of the Nephite hegemony bounded by the mountains and stretching along the river to the end, not across mountains.

In the other river valley there were populations, but at that point not the great cities. I do not know how Nephites recognized each other from a distance.

[Sargon]

Asked and answered. Thank you Brant!

By the way, the first volume in your series is sitting under my tree as we speak (I buy my own presents).

[Cold Steel]

One question I have is, why would one river receive so much coverage in the Nephite record while the other one would remain unknown? It's apparent that whoever named the river was a Phonecian, but did he come with the Mulekites or did he come with the Nephites? I also suppose it's possible that there was a Phonecian colony over there as well.

The Mesoamericans seem to know there were lands on the other side of the sea, but the people in the Old World didn't seem to universally know about the New World. I find that significant in that there were probably a number of migrations here from the Old World. Some of the pre-existing cultures may have originally come from various areas of the Old World.

[Brant Gardner]

One question I have is, why would one river receive so much coverage in the Nephite record while the other one would remain unknown?

Not necessarily unknown, but not relevant. Even for most modern people, we don't often speak of the next state over, even though we know it is there and might visit from time to time. We travel more widely that past peoples (save the traders, who seem to have always traveled broadly).

Nevertheless, it isn't that surprising that an ancient culture wouldn't speak much of things outside their sphere, which was typically limited to one to two day's journey away.

The Mesoamericans seem to know there were lands on the other side of the sea. . . .

I'm not sure I would agree with that statement. Perhaps Central Mexico or Gulf Coast Mexico knew about Florida, but I'm not so sure that they knew much about the eastern hemisphere, if anything.

[Anijen]

Not necessarily unknown, but not relevant. Even for most modern people, we don't often speak of the next state over, even though we know it is there and might visit from time to time. We travel more widely that past peoples (save the traders, who seem to have always traveled broadly).

Nevertheless, it isn't that surprising that an ancient culture wouldn't speak much of things outside their sphere, which was typically limited to one to two day's journey away.

I'm not sure I would agree with that statement. Perhaps Central Mexico or Gulf Coast Mexico knew about Florida, but I'm not so sure that they knew much about the eastern hemisphere, if anything.

Brant,

Sorry for the quick digression. I just wanted to tell you thanks for your work, videos etc. I have learned a lot. I have changed some long term ideas and just wanted to say thanks. Keep going.

Anijen

[Brant Gardner]

By the way, the first volume in your series is sitting under my tree as we speak (I buy my own presents).

Why, thank you. I hope you enjoy it. I just received a royalty check for the first six months of the year and now my wife and I can go out to dinner. You can be pleased to know that you are helping with next year's dessert course <grin>.

[Olavarria]

muchas gracias Brant : )

[Brant Gardner]

Brant,

Sorry for the quick digression. I just wanted to tell you thanks for your work, videos etc. I have learned a lot. I have changed some long term ideas and just wanted to say thanks. Keep going.

Anijen

Thank you. That means a lot.

[Sargon]

Why, thank you. I hope you enjoy it. I just received a royalty check for the first six months of the year and now my wife and I can go out to dinner. You can be pleased to know that you are helping with next year's dessert course <grin>.

Of course!

I was reading Sorenson's book yesterday when I came up with this thread's question. I told my wife "I'll ask Brant about this." She thinks I'm funny for pretending like I'm on a first name basis with our scholars.

But seriously, we all appreciate the leaps and bounds that you have made. If anything, you have been priceless in educating all of us. I look forward to digesting your series, and whatever else you crank out in the future. I'm also looking forward to Mark finishing up his studies so we can have more interaction with him too.

[Olavarria]

While we are at it.....was I off base on my Olmec-Jaredite thread?

[randy]

Why, thank you. I hope you enjoy it. I just received a royalty check for the first six months of the year and now my wife and I can go out to dinner. You can be pleased to know that you are helping with next year's dessert course <grin>.

Brant,

Say...I just wanted you to know....that instead of getting an XBOX 360 "racing wheel" and NASCAR 2009...I am heading out right now to get my Christmas present at the local LDS bookstore.....and some of your great work is on the list....and I've checked it twice!

Say....I do have one thing on my list that perhaps you could help me with. I participate on the CoC discussion board....and there is always discussion regarding "who wrote the Book of Mormon"...is it historical...DNA issues..and on and on. Just like on here!! hahaha

It would be great if perhaps you could drop by that board every now and again to add your expertise and thoughts on things. I know you're extremely busy...and heaven knows keeping up with the discourse on this board is almost a fulltime job...but if you could spare a few minutes a month that would be wonderful.

Merry Christmas to you and yours....and thanks again for all you do!

....oh, and I am glad I could do my part in helping out on the dessert course!

[Brant Gardner]

While we are at it.....was I off base on my Olmec-Jaredite thread?

The Jaredites were in the New World during the timeframe of Olmec culture. They appear to have lived in lands that were part of Olmec culture. I don't think they were the Olmecs. The Israelites were part of Mesopotamian culture, but they weren't the only representatives of it (and not the most famous).

[poulsenll]

I have a question about a very specific piece of Book of Mormon geography.

King Limhi, ruling his small population of oppressed Nephites under Lamanite rule in the land of Nephi, sent an exploratory party to find Zarahemla. Along the way the party got lost, didn't find Zarahemla, and wound up traveling into the land northward and stumbling into Jaredite remains. (Mosiah 21:25-27)

According to Brant Gardner, this party must have confused which river they were supposed to follow. Instead of following the Sidon (Grijalva) they took the Usumacinta, whose head was located only 1 mile away. Larry Poulsen demonstrates this geography here.

My question is, how did the exploring party travel completely across Nephi territory without running into any Nephite settlements? According Sorenson, there was approximately 100 miles of controlled Nephite territory plus 80 miles of uncotrolled territory between the city of Zarahemla and the narrow neck of land (where Jaredite remains were found). King Limhi's explorers would have had to cross that expanse, following a river, without running into a single Nephite. Sorenson also suggests that this 100 mile expanse of Nephite territory would have been a densely populated rural Nephite area outside of the city.

Even in the more rural parts of deep Nephite territory, wouldn't townships be more frequent along a river? If King Limhi's party were traveling along a river (even one that is not the mighty Sidon) shouldn't we expect them to run into Nephite settlements at some point? Instead, they somehow miss seeing any Nephite settlements and travel straight through the Nephite nation and into Jaredite lands to the north.

Thanks.

Sargon

First of all we need to clarify the geography as presented in Sorenson's work versus the geography described in the Book of Mormon. Sorenson applies a modern geocentric concept of geography and concludes that the Nephites must have thought of the Atalntic and Pacific oceans as the East and west seas respectively. The Book of Mormon describers a more Anthrocentric view of geography. This is a geography based on the individual and what he can visualize by placing himself at the center. In this concept seas are local parts of the oceans rather than the whole ocean. We even do this today when we speak of the Carribean Sea, the Gulf of Mexico and the Sea of Cortez. In addition, all of their directions were with reference to the position of the sun at surise and sunset. East was ALWAYS where the sun rose. The Gulf of Mexico was ALWAYS north of the postulated location of Zarahemla and therefore could never be considered to be an east sea.. Sorenson's location for the East Sea complex of Nephite influence is in contradiction to this concept of directions. John Clark is in agreement that the Nephite concept of the Land was divided into four quarters with seas in each of the four quarters.

This would place the east sea complex on the coast of Belize, not at the mouth of the Usamacinta or Grijalva rivers. Although these two rivers now have a common delta, this has only been true for the last 1000 years. During Book of Mormon times the Grijalva followed a direct course north to the sea along what is now called Rio Seco.

Except for the small area along the shore of the Gulf of Mexico the two river valleys were seperated by a Mountain range with peaks as high as 11,000 ft. At the time of Limhi,s search party, there were no settlerments outside of the Sidon River valley, the east sea complex was settled at least 15-20 years later by General Moroni to prevent access by the Lamanites , who at that time were mostly located in the south and on the western coast t, by way of the limited number of passes through the narrow strip of wilderness that seperated the two cultures.

To my knowledge, the Book of Mormon never describes Nephite settlemnents at the mouth of the Sidon River. It does however describe the migration of the people of Zarahemla (including Mulekites) coming from a northern shore up into the valley of the Sidon River.

For more information about ancient concepts of directions, see by Blog

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?automodule=blog

I presented a more extensive description of these concepts at the FAIR Cponference las August but they dont have it up on the Web yet.

Blair Hodges has a short report on his blog.

http://www.lifeongoldplates.com/2008/08/20...ence-notes.html

Although, I agree with Sorenson on the general area for the Book of Mormon geography, I differ considerably in the details. Because of his view of directions, the differences become significant the farther one goes from the central parts of the geography.

Hope this clarifies things a bit more.

Larry P

[Olavarria]

The Jaredites were in the New World during the timeframe of Olmec culture. They appear to have lived in lands that were part of Olmec culture. I don't think they were the Olmecs. The Israelites were part of Mesopotamian culture, but they weren't the only representatives of it (and not the most famous).

Would it be correct to say that the Jaredites were Olmec in the way the Romney's, Eyhrings and Calls of Colonia Juraez were Mexican? One could make an argument that Marion G. Romney and Camilla Eyhring Kimball are Mexicans, though most Utahns, or even their descendants, probably wouldn't see it that way.

In other words, Coriantmr was Olmec in the way Senador Jeffrey Jones de Chihuahua Mexico is Mexican

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Max_Jones

[Brant Gardner]

Would it be correct to say that the Jaredites were Olmec in the way the Romney's, Eyhrings and Calls of Colonia Juraez were Mexican? One could make an argument that Marion G. Romney and Camilla Eyhring Kimball are Mexicans, though most Utahns, or even their descendants, probably wouldn't see it that way.

Maybe more like finding Cowboys in Wyoming and Texas. They have a similar culture and experience, but certainly wouldn't consider themselves part of some larger group.

Although modern examples are difficult, it is something like being Mormon in American culture. Most of my material goods are not easily distinguished from my neighbors, and even the distinctions are rarely attributable to my religion.

[Sargon]

Thank you Larry! I am not nearly prepared to digest all of the details of BoM geography yet, but I appreciate you clarifying it for me.

Quick question. Since you clearly disagree with Sorenson's take on Nephite directions, could you summarize your take on this?

Sorenson explains on page 38-39 that in ancient Israel directions were determined by their relationship to a person standing with his back to the Mediterranean Sea, his face towards the desert to the East. Sorenson explains:

Yam (”sea”) then meant “west”, for the Mediterranean lay in that direction, while qedem (”fore”) stood for “east.” Then yamin (”right”) meant “south,” while shemol (”left hand”) denoted “north.” In Palestine, this model coincided nicely with nature (the coast runs nearly north-south) and also proved neatly translatable to our European uses of the terms east, west, north, and south.

Imagine Lehi leaving Israel with this general method of determining compass directions. It has been long held that Lehi and family landed on the southwest side of Mesoamerica, having crossed the Pacific Ocean. If this is true, Lehi would have stood with his back to the sea (which was south-southwest) and called that yam, or “west.” Therefore, on his left hand would be “north” (which was actually west-northwest), on his right hand was “south”, and directly in front of him would be “east”. Transporting this ancient Israelite model directly to the New World provides us with a means for understanding the skewed directions (from our perspective) that we find in the Book of Mormon.

Sorenson emphasizes that it is important to remember that the Book of Mormon almost always designates the land as “northward” and “southward,” with extremely rare occasions in which it is simply designated as “north” or “south”.

http://lehislibrary.wordpress.com/2008/04/...f-mormon-lands/