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do We Believe Joseph Smith or Lds Apologists? Joseph Says He Could Translate Egyptian.


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2 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I’m an articulate and yet life long terrible speller. Always have been. Spelling has never been my gift. But once written out I  reread what I have written and can sense that a particular word isn’t quite right. When I do sense this I correct it. Thus my penchant for multiple edits to my posts. 

I can identify with that... auto spellcheck has been a gift from heaven for me, but doesn't help much when my misspelling is the correct spelling for something else.

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51 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

I sent a Thank You card some time ago that had Thank You printed on it in a dozen or so languages.  I hope no one thought I was implying that I’m proficient in a dozen languages...that certainly wasn’t my intent.  I was just very thankful.

At Christmas time I will occasionally sing Feliz Navidad, the Christmas song made popular years ago by José Feliciano. 
 

I’ve tried to memorize the words to the 1962 hit song Suki Yaki and the words to the 1959 hit Volare so that I could sing those songs. 

I would hope no one would conclude from the above that I’m trying to fein fluency in Spanish, Japanese or Italian. Such is not my intent. 

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Were I a Chaldean I would exclaim: Keed’nauh ta-meroon le-hoam olauhayauh dey-shemayauh veh aur’kau lau gnaubadoo yabadoo ma-ar’gnau oomeen tehoat shemayauh alah. (Thus shall ye say unto them: The gods that have not made the heavens and earth, they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.)
An Egyptian: Su e-eh-ni: (What other persons are those?) A Grecian: Diabolos bassileuei: (The Devil reigns.) A Frenchman: Messieurs sans Dieu, (Gentlemen without God:) A Turk. Ain shems: (The fountain of light.) A German: sie sind unferstandig. (What consummat ignorance!) A Syrian: Zaubol. (Sacrifice!) A Spaniard: ll sabio muda conscio, il nescio no. (A wise man reflects, a fool does not.) A Samaritan: Saunau! (O Stranger!) An Italian: Oh tempa! oh diffidanza! (O the times! o the diffidence!) A Hebrew: Ahtauh ail rauey. (Thou God seest me.) A Dane: Hyad tidende! (What tidings!) A Saxon: Hwaet riht! (What right!) A Sweede: Hyad skilia: (What skill!) A Polander: Nav-yen-shoo bah pon na Jesu Christus; (Blessed be the name of Jesus Christ.) A Western Indian: She-mo-kah she-mo-keh teh ough-ne gah. (The white man, O the white man, he very uncertain.) A Roman: Procul, o procul este profani! (Be off, be off ye profane!) But as I am I will only add: when the wicked rule the people mourn.

The above is from the document. https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/transcript/general-joseph-smiths-appeal-to-the-green-mountain-boys-december-1843?print=true  I don't know how one could say that Joseph Smith isn't trying to show that he knew all of the above languages, including Egyptian.  He says a statement supposedly in Egyptian and then gives the supposed translation: "An Egyptian: Su e-eh-ni: (What other persons are those?)"

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3 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

That’s an interesting perception. Purposely misspelling to obfuscate. Hmmm. I’m an articulate and yet life long terrible speller. Always have been. Spelling has never been my gift. But once written out I  reread what I have written and can sense that a particular word isn’t quite right. When I do sense this I correct it. Thus my penchant for multiple edits to my posts. But you’re accusing me of purposely misspelling for some nefarious motivation. Interesting. Que QAnon...more conspiracies afoot. 

O.K.  I apologize, Fair Dinkum.  You come by your bad spelling honestly.  I get it.  Maybe that's how its done Sidneyside, mate.

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1 hour ago, OGHoosier said:

After encountering this question yesterday I spent a few hours in research and, I must say, it was a gift. I learned a lot. I appreciate this question for the same reason that Hugh Nibley appreciated the critics of his day: “they keep us on our toes.”referenced as JSE)

I hope you’re not suggesting that I’m a critic for posting this subject?

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2 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I hope you’re not suggesting that I’m a critic for posting this subject?

No, honestly. You approach these sorts of questions in a different way from me, I think, but I wouldn't categorize you as an inveterate critic.

 But you've got to admit that "Who do we believe? Joseph Smith or the Apologists?" is something of a challenge which, like I said, keeps me on my toes. 

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49 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

Stream of consciousness. Beautiful.

P.S. I don't speak Spanish fluently; and when I wrote a certain poem I knew even less. In fact, it was the encounter of some phrases and words in Spanish in my initial learning that captured my imagination and emotion and I knew it had to have a poem. It's almost all  in English, but first line is in Spanish and last line is one word: "reloj". My purpose was other than making sure others knew I knew Spanish (when I didn't).

I know a lot of Arabic words and a lot of Sanskrit words through my religious study and living; probably just enough to be 'dangerous'. I don't speak Arabic and I don't speak Sanskrit; I have no notion of their structure. But I can wax for a long time (in English) on the principle(s) of jahiliyyah, jihad, and jannah (as an example).

I can feel this in, say, the word 'Zaubol' Joseph (or Phelps) exclaims poetically above. It is evident to me that he was carrying that word within him from whenever he had previously encountered it. Zaubol, zaubol, zaubol.  Yes, in English it means (?) sacrifice. But there is something within it for him to say 'zaubol'; just as I now say 'jahiliyyah' even though in English it simply means 'the forgetting'. But it 'ought' to be said jahiliyyah, for the weight in that word. Ahimsa means 'harmlessness' but to say 'harmlessness' doesn't really capture 'ahimsa'.

Point being is that Joseph (or Phelps) spewing forth foreign phrases is not what you say it is, a way to show you know the whole language. It simply is a vessel for meaning, emotion, imagination ESPECIALLY when one doesn't know the whole language.

Indeed. 
 

It’s like when I use a well known Latin expression such as  carpe diem (seize the day) or caveat emptor (buyer beware) or quid pro quo (this for that) or post hoc ergo propter hoc (occurring afterward, therefore resulting from). I do it to spice up my writing, but I’ve never seriously entertained the idea that a reader would be misled into believing I am fluent in Latin. That’s a silly notion. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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Similar to what others have pointed out, I know about a dozen different words in about a dozen different languages.  I would never try to convince anyone that I'm fluent or that I can translate in any of them.

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10 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

O.K.  I apologize, Fair Dinkum.  You come by your bad spelling honestly.  I get it.  Maybe that's how its done Sidneyside, mate.

Caught in my own trap. What to do?  If I point out that Robert has misspelled Sydneyside. I’m guilty of the same charge I’ve accused Brother Lloyd of being. But on the other hand it could be that Robert is just purposely trying to obfuscate the subject. 
 

Probably best that I just leave it alone and say nothing. 

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2 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

No, honestly. You approach these sorts of questions in a different way from me, I think, but I wouldn't categorize you as an inveterate critic.

 But you've got to admit that "Who do we believe? Joseph Smith or the Apologists?" is something of a challenge which, like I said, keeps me on my toes. 

Something about the subtly disparaging use of the term “apologists” here conveys critic to me. 

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4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Something about the subtly disparaging use of the term “apologists” here conveys critic to me. 

Well, you've always got people like Ed Goble, who disagree with the so-called "apologetic positions" on some things but are not critics of the Church per se. 

Edit: Actually, my original statement was a misrepresentation of Ed Goble. He defends the Church, but he disagrees with the theories of lots of apologists and advances his own. His opinion of many apologists is not high. 

Edited by OGHoosier
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4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Indeed. 
 

It’s like when I use a well known Latin expression such as  carpe diem (seize the day) or caveat emptor (buyer beware) or quid pro quo (*** for tat) or post hoc ergo propter hoc (occurring afterward therefore resulting from). I do it to spice up my writing, but I’ve never seriously entertained the idea that a reader would be misled into believing I am fluent in Latin. That’s a silly notion. 

Apples and oranges. You’re not speaking a dead language as if you know it to your audience 

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2 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Apples and oranges. You’re not speaking a dead language as if you know it to your audience 

A distinction without a difference. One can be fluent or not fluent in Latin, “dead language” or not. In fact, some might regard Latin fluency as a mark of scholarly attainment. 

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20 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:
Were I a Chaldean I would exclaim: Keed’nauh ta-meroon le-hoam olauhayauh dey-shemayauh veh aur’kau lau gnaubadoo yabadoo ma-ar’gnau oomeen tehoat shemayauh alah. (Thus shall ye say unto them: The gods that have not made the heavens and earth, they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.)
An Egyptian: Su e-eh-ni: (What other persons are those?) A Grecian: Diabolos bassileuei: (The Devil reigns.) A Frenchman: Messieurs sans Dieu, (Gentlemen without God:) A Turk. Ain shems: (The fountain of light.) A German: sie sind unferstandig. (What consummat ignorance!) A Syrian: Zaubol. (Sacrifice!) A Spaniard: ll sabio muda conscio, il nescio no. (A wise man reflects, a fool does not.) A Samaritan: Saunau! (O Stranger!) An Italian: Oh tempa! oh diffidanza! (O the times! o the diffidence!) A Hebrew: Ahtauh ail rauey. (Thou God seest me.) A Dane: Hyad tidende! (What tidings!) A Saxon: Hwaet riht! (What right!) A Sweede: Hyad skilia: (What skill!) A Polander: Nav-yen-shoo bah pon na Jesu Christus; (Blessed be the name of Jesus Christ.) A Western Indian: She-mo-kah she-mo-keh teh ough-ne gah. (The white man, O the white man, he very uncertain.) A Roman: Procul, o procul este profani! (Be off, be off ye profane!) But as I am I will only add: when the wicked rule the people mourn.
 

Do you know if any one has actually figured out how many of these languages make sense?  I just did a quick Google translate of the English to the supposed language and it looks like many of the translations are wrong.  But I'd love to see if someone has actually tried to match them up.

Here's each language with what is in the document and the Google Translate of the English text.

  • Chaldean
  • Keed’nauh ta-meroon le-hoam olauhayauh dey-shemayauh veh aur’kau lau gnaubadoo yabadoo ma-ar’gnau oomeen tehoat shemayauh alah (Thus shall ye say unto them: The gods that have not made the heavens and earth, they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.)
  • Not in Google Translate

 

  • Egyptian
  • Su e-eh-ni: (What other persons are those?)
  • Not in Google Translate.

 

  • Greek
  • Diabolos bassileuei: (The Devil reigns.)
  • O diávolos vasilévei

 

  • French:
  • Messieurs sans Dieu, (Gentlemen without God.)
  • Messieurs sans Dieu

 

  • Turkish
  • Ain shems: (The fountain of light.)
  • Işık çeşmesi

 

  • German
  • sie sind unferstandig. (What consummat ignorance!)
  • was für eine vollendete Unwissenheit

 

  • Syrian
  • Zaubol. (Sacrifice!)
  • Not in Google Translate

 

  • Spanish
  • ll sabio muda conscio, il nescio no. (A wise man reflects, a fool does not.)
  • Un sabio reflexiona, un necio no

 

  • Samaritan
  • Saunau! (O Stranger!)
  • Not in Google Translate

 

  • Italian
  • Oh tempa! oh diffidanza! (O the times! o the diffidence!)
  • Oh i tempi! o la diffidenza!

 

  • Hebrew:
  • Ahtauh ail rauey. (Thou God seest me.)
  • אלוהים רואה אותי

 

  • Danish
  • Hyad tidende! (What tidings!)
  • Hvad tidender

 

  • Saxon
  • Hwaet riht! (What right!)
  • Not in Google Translate

 

  • Sweede:
  • Hyad skilia: (What skill!)
  • vad skill (though, Google Translate also says this means 'what difference')

 

  • Polander
  • Nav-yen-shoo bah pon na Jesu Christus; (Blessed be the name of Jesus Christ.)
  • Niech będzie błogosławione imię Jezusa Chrystusa

 

  • Western Indian (I guessed Hindi)
  • She-mo-kah she-mo-keh teh ough-ne gah. (The white man, O the white man, he very uncertain.)
  • saphed aadamee, saphed aadamee par, vah bahut anishchit hai

 

  • Latin
  • Procul, o procul este profani! (Be off, be off ye profane!)
  • Abi, abi ne polluatis
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1 minute ago, webbles said:

Do you know if any one has actually figured out how many of these languages make sense?  I just did a quick Google translate of the English to the supposed language and it looks like many of the translations are wrong.  But I'd love to see if someone has actually tried to match them up.

Here's each language with what is in the document and the Google Translate of the English text.

  • Chaldean
  • Keed’nauh ta-meroon le-hoam olauhayauh dey-shemayauh veh aur’kau lau gnaubadoo yabadoo ma-ar’gnau oomeen tehoat shemayauh alah (Thus shall ye say unto them: The gods that have not made the heavens and earth, they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.)
  • Not in Google Translate

 

  • Egyptian
  • Su e-eh-ni: (What other persons are those?)
  • Not in Google Translate.

 

  • Greek
  • Diabolos bassileuei: (The Devil reigns.)
  • O diávolos vasilévei

 

  • French:
  • Messieurs sans Dieu, (Gentlemen without God.)
  • Messieurs sans Dieu

 

  • Turkish
  • Ain shems: (The fountain of light.)
  • Işık çeşmesi

 

  • German
  • sie sind unferstandig. (What consummat ignorance!)
  • was für eine vollendete Unwissenheit

 

  • Syrian
  • Zaubol. (Sacrifice!)
  • Not in Google Translate

 

  • Spanish
  • ll sabio muda conscio, il nescio no. (A wise man reflects, a fool does not.)
  • Un sabio reflexiona, un necio no

 

  • Samaritan
  • Saunau! (O Stranger!)
  • Not in Google Translate

 

  • Italian
  • Oh tempa! oh diffidanza! (O the times! o the diffidence!)
  • Oh i tempi! o la diffidenza!

 

  • Hebrew:
  • Ahtauh ail rauey. (Thou God seest me.)
  • אלוהים רואה אותי

 

  • Danish
  • Hyad tidende! (What tidings!)
  • Hvad tidender

 

  • Saxon
  • Hwaet riht! (What right!)
  • Not in Google Translate

 

  • Sweede:
  • Hyad skilia: (What skill!)
  • vad skill (though, Google Translate also says this means 'what difference')

 

  • Polander
  • Nav-yen-shoo bah pon na Jesu Christus; (Blessed be the name of Jesus Christ.)
  • Niech będzie błogosławione imię Jezusa Chrystusa

 

  • Western Indian (I guessed Hindi)
  • She-mo-kah she-mo-keh teh ough-ne gah. (The white man, O the white man, he very uncertain.)
  • saphed aadamee, saphed aadamee par, vah bahut anishchit hai

 

  • Latin
  • Procul, o procul este profani! (Be off, be off ye profane!)
  • Abi, abi ne polluatis

Sam Brown has notes on each of them in the footnotes of The Translator and the Ghostwriter. Most of them are kind of unorthodox when it comes to spelling but they work. 

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1 hour ago, webbles said:

Do you know if any one has actually figured out how many of these languages make sense?  I just did a quick Google translate of the English to the supposed language and it looks like many of the translations are wrong.  But I'd love to see if someone has actually tried to match them up.

Here's each language with what is in the document and the Google Translate of the English text.

  • Chaldean
  • Keed’nauh ta-meroon le-hoam olauhayauh dey-shemayauh veh aur’kau lau gnaubadoo yabadoo ma-ar’gnau oomeen tehoat shemayauh alah (Thus shall ye say unto them: The gods that have not made the heavens and earth, they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.)
  • Not in Google Translate

 

  • Egyptian
  • Su e-eh-ni: (What other persons are those?)
  • Not in Google Translate.

 

  • Greek
  • Diabolos bassileuei: (The Devil reigns.)
  • O diávolos vasilévei

 

  • French:
  • Messieurs sans Dieu, (Gentlemen without God.)
  • Messieurs sans Dieu

 

  • Turkish
  • Ain shems: (The fountain of light.)
  • Işık çeşmesi

 

  • German
  • sie sind unferstandig. (What consummat ignorance!)
  • was für eine vollendete Unwissenheit

 

  • Syrian
  • Zaubol. (Sacrifice!)
  • Not in Google Translate

 

  • Spanish
  • ll sabio muda conscio, il nescio no. (A wise man reflects, a fool does not.)
  • Un sabio reflexiona, un necio no

 

  • Samaritan
  • Saunau! (O Stranger!)
  • Not in Google Translate

 

  • Italian
  • Oh tempa! oh diffidanza! (O the times! o the diffidence!)
  • Oh i tempi! o la diffidenza!

 

  • Hebrew:
  • Ahtauh ail rauey. (Thou God seest me.)
  • אלוהים רואה אותי

 

  • Danish
  • Hyad tidende! (What tidings!)
  • Hvad tidender

 

  • Saxon
  • Hwaet riht! (What right!)
  • Not in Google Translate

 

  • Sweede:
  • Hyad skilia: (What skill!)
  • vad skill (though, Google Translate also says this means 'what difference')

 

  • Polander
  • Nav-yen-shoo bah pon na Jesu Christus; (Blessed be the name of Jesus Christ.)
  • Niech będzie błogosławione imię Jezusa Chrystusa

 

  • Western Indian (I guessed Hindi)
  • She-mo-kah she-mo-keh teh ough-ne gah. (The white man, O the white man, he very uncertain.)
  • saphed aadamee, saphed aadamee par, vah bahut anishchit hai

 

  • Latin
  • Procul, o procul este profani! (Be off, be off ye profane!)
  • Abi, abi ne polluatis

Well, if it's not in Google Translate, QED! :rolleyes:

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I have been following the different threads on the BOA.  The issues and opinions really sound about the same that I have heard for the last twenty years.  Brian Hauglid is a bit of a wild card that has been different lately.  RFM does an interview with Brian, so John Dehlin has to do something even bigger with Robert Ritner.  There have been some other translation topics with small portions of Adam Clarke`s Commentary showing up in the Joseph Smith Translation when studied by Thomas Wayment and his assistant who ended up leaving the Church after graduating from BYU.  I have wanted to answer with this article by KARL C SANDBERG-KNOWING BROTHER JOSEPH AGAIN on multiple threads.  I was unsuccessful in attaching it as a link.  Not one of my skills.  I guess mine is more in reading.  I find myself going back to it again and again when thinking about translation issues.  He was a brilliant man who died as a faithful, thoughtful latter day saint back in 2003.  He sort of flew under the radar, but he has an extensive number of papers at the University of Utah that look interesting when perused.  The tributes to him at the time are telling.  

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2 hours ago, webbles said:

 

  • Western Indian (I guessed Hindi)
  • She-mo-kah she-mo-keh teh ough-ne gah. (The white man, O the white man, he very uncertain.)

Interesting you used hindi.  I had assumed he meant a first nation / native American tribe such as the sioux, apache or navajo.

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9 minutes ago, readstoomuch said:

I have been following the different threads on the BOA.  The issues and opinions really sound about the same that I have heard for the last twenty years.  Brian Hauglid is a bit of a wild card that has been different lately.  RFM does an interview with Brian, so John Dehlin has to do something even bigger with Robert Ritner.  There have been some other translation topics with small portions of Adam Clarke`s Commentary showing up in the Joseph Smith Translation when studied by Thomas Wayment and his assistant who ended up leaving the Church after graduating from BYU.  I have wanted to answer with this article by KARL C SANDBERG-KNOWING BROTHER JOSEPH AGAIN on multiple threads.  I was unsuccessful in attaching it as a link.  Not one of my skills.  I guess mine is more in reading.  I find myself going back to it again and again when thinking about translation issues.  He was a brilliant man who died as a faithful, thoughtful latter day saint back in 2003.  He sort of flew under the radar, but he has an extensive number of papers at the University of Utah that look interesting when perused.  The tributes to him at the time are telling.  

Here’s the link: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/knowing-brother-joseph-again-the-book-of-abraham-and-joseph-smith-as-translator/ 

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2 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

Sam Brown has notes on each of them in the footnotes of The Translator and the Ghostwriter. Most of them are kind of unorthodox when it comes to spelling but they work. 

Thank you.  I found it on pages 20-22 of the pdf (page number 45-47 in the document).

10 out of 17 are basically correct.  Of those correct, 3 of them (Chaldean, Samaritan, and Hebrew) probably come from primers that Joshua Seixas brought to the Hebrew school.  1 of them (the Western Indian) is from the Lenape tribe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenape) and Phelps probably picked it up because of missionary contact with a group that had been relocated to Fort Leavenworth.  The other 6 (Greek, French, German, Spanish, Italian, Latin) have only minor issues.

Of the 7 that are incorrect, 1 is the Egyptian one.  The Turkish one probably references a religious festival which is not what someone would say to the rhetorical question that Phelps posed before writing all of the languages.  Syrian is unknown.  3 (Danish, Saxon, and Sweede) are literal translations of the English words which is what someone who doesn't know the language would do.  Polish is either completely wrong or Phelps used the word for "name" instead of "blessed".

So, almost half of the languages are incorrect.  If you just look at the dead languages (Chaldean, Samaritan, Hebrew, Latin, Saxon, Syrian, Egyptian), more than half (4 out of 7) are correct.  And if you look at the non dead languages (Greek, French, German, Spanish, Latin, Lenape, Turkish, Danish, Sweede, Polish), 4 out of 10 are incorrect.

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5 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Caught in my own trap. What to do?  If I point out that Robert has misspelled Sydneyside. I’m guilty of the same charge I’ve accused Brother Lloyd of being. But on the other hand it could be that Robert is just purposely trying to obfuscate the subject. 
 

Probably best that I just leave it alone and say nothing. 

Sorry, mate.  I really don't know that much about you antipodeans, or even how to spell your terms properly.  Reminds me of an early LDS Church member, Simonds Ryder, who apostatized because Joseph couldn't spell his name right.

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17 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

After encountering this question yesterday I spent a few hours in research and, I must say, it was a gift. I learned a lot.

None of which is going to make for a very good 'gotcha' moment on your podcast ... :P

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20 hours ago, let’s roll said:

I sent a Thank You card some time ago that had Thank You printed on it in a dozen or so languages.  I hope no one thought I was implying that I’m proficient in a dozen languages...that certainly wasn’t my intent.  I was just very thankful.

You're proficient in the words "thank you"! ;) Hehehe! 

Edited by Tacenda
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