Judges During the Mayan Empire?

[nuclearfuels]

Looking for timeline references to judges the Mayan people had, possibly between 600 bc and 400 ad

 

Each of the Maya states had a supreme military commander called a nacom. The nacom served a three year term and was responsible for formulating military strategy and calling troops to battle. The individual states also had a high priest who led a hierarchy of priests, determined the dates for festivals and ceremonies, and foretold auspicious events for the ruler. The halach uinic appointed the batabs, who were the overseers and administrators of dependent cities and villages within the state. Batabs usually held administrative, judicial, and military authority over their towns, ensured that tribute was paid to the halach uinic, and supplied troops in times of war. Batabs were not paid tribute, but were supported by the people who lived in their town. Each batab presided over a local council composed of town officials known as the ah cuch cabob. These councilors were the heads of the different subdivisions (nalil) within the towns. The Batabs also had assistants (al kuleloob) who assisted them with carrying out their government duties. Each town had constables (tupiles) who were supervised by the batab and were charged with keeping the peace.

Sources: Foster (2002), Houston (2009), Salcedo Flores (2009), and Sharer (1996).

https://tarlton.law.utexas.edu/aztec-and-maya-law/maya-political-structure

• TRADITIONS OF CASTE AND CHIEFTAINSHIP AMONG THE MAYA, "Mayan Traditions"
• "The Ancient Maya", by Robert Sharer, 2006, Stanford University Press (via Google Books)

[InCognitus]

54 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Looking for timeline references to judges the Mayan people had, possibly between 600 bc and 400 ad

Two references I found online put the batabs in the post collapse period, to the 16th century:

Mesoamerican Timeline:

Quote

16th Century Maya

16th century Maya is Maya as the Spaniards found it. The land was cut up into hundreds of polities with hereditary rulers called batabs. War was very common between and within the batabs. Still northern Maya society was quite complex with large towns organized around temple pyramids, public plazas, and elaborate houses, that impressed the Spaniards. They had nobles with prestigious family names who were rich in land, they traded long distance in things like clothes, honey, chocolate, and slaves. Lowest in the social pyramid were slaves who were war captives or debtors. At this time the Maya remained relatively untouched by the Spaniards, who moved onto the Aztecs (Scarre, 633).

The History of the Maya Civilization:

Quote

Post Collapse Period:  After the collapse in the central and southern lowlands, Maya civilization continued and even flourished in the northern lowlands of Yucatán and in the southern highlands of Guatemala.  The decline of the older powers in the south led to unprecedented growth in the Yucatán Peninsula and the rise of a number of new cities in that region.  Among these were Uxmal, Sayil, and Labna, characterized by a distinctive architectural style known as Puuc, which features elaborate mosaic decoration (A.D. 900 to 1521).  The city-states of Yucatán were ruled by a hereditary halach uinic (also called ahau) who was also the highest religious authority.  The halach uinic had very broad powers.  He formulated domestic and foreign policy and appointed batabs (lesser lords), who administered the surrounding towns and villages.  Local councils made up of clan leaders aided the batabs.  Other local Maya officials collected taxes and kept order.  Post-classic merchants and professional craft workers composed a kind of middle class.

 

[JamesBYoung]

Do any good Spanish histories early on the Mayan culture exist that discuss Mayan government and military matters?

[Robert F. Smith]

Maybe Brant Gardner will chime in with some comments on this.

@Brant Gardner

Among the Zapotecs of Oaxaca, there was the Uiha Tao “Great Seer,” who was both High Priest & Judge, and was equivalent to Tarascan Petamut “Annunciator-High Priest.”

[InCognitus]

19 hours ago, Mac said:

“He then proceeded and gave a general account of the promises made to the fathers, and also gave a history of the aborigenes of this country, and said they were literal descendants of Abraham. He represented them as once being an enlightned and intelligent people, possessing a correct knowledge of the gospel, and the plan of restoration and redemption. He said this history was written and deposited not far from that place, and that it was our brother’s privilege, if obedient to the commandments of the Lord, to obtain and translate the same by the means of the Urim and Thummim, which were deposited for that purpose with the record.“

"History, 1834–1836," p. 64, The Joseph Smith Papers, accessed May 31, 2020, https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/68

I guess some don’t how to use JosephSmithpapers.org and would rather believe the Maya lived in New York, near Palmyra.

 

What is your point exactly?  That Oliver Cowdery understood the correct ancient American setting for the Book of Mormon?   Or that the fact that Moroni buried the plates in New York means it all happened there?   I'm not following your reasoning.

[carbon dioxide]

A little off topic not completely as it related to Mayans so I include it in this Mayan related thread.   Just saw this about a new discovery from LIDAR.

Oldest and largest ancient Maya structure found in Mexico

Scientists using an aerial remote-sensing method have discovered the largest and oldest-known structure built by the ancient Maya civilization - a colossal rectangular elevated platform built between 1,000 and 800 BC in Mexico's Tabasco state....

Located at a site called Aguada Fenix near the Guatemalan border, the structure measured nearly a quarter mile (400 meters) wide and nine-tenths of a mile (1,400 meters) long and stood 33 to 50 feet (10 to 15 meters) high. In total volume, it exceeded ancient Egypt's Great Pyramid of Giza built 1,500 years earlier.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/oldest-largest-ancient-maya-structure-151236592.html

[mfbukowski]

Does this count?  History buff that I am not..... 

https://archive.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/nephite-judges

 

[RevTestament]

8 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

A little off topic not completely as it related to Mayans so I include it in this Mayan related thread.   Just saw this about a new discovery from LIDAR.

Oldest and largest ancient Maya structure found in Mexico

Scientists using an aerial remote-sensing method have discovered the largest and oldest-known structure built by the ancient Maya civilization - a colossal rectangular elevated platform built between 1,000 and 800 BC in Mexico's Tabasco state....

Kinda rules out Maya = Lehites doesn't it? By up to 500 years...

8 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Located at a site called Aguada Fenix near the Guatemalan border, the structure measured nearly a quarter mile (400 meters) wide and nine-tenths of a mile (1,400 meters) long and stood 33 to 50 feet (10 to 15 meters) high. In total volume, it exceeded ancient Egypt's Great Pyramid of Giza built 1,500 years earlier.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/oldest-largest-ancient-maya-structure-151236592.html

Wow. Archaeologists have missed a lot haven't they? I wonder what they have missed elsewhere given that they have probably uncovered no more than 6-10% of what's out there? And what incorrect assumptions they have made?

[Calm]

Most meso theorists haven’t equated Mayans with Lehites for quite some time (as long as I have been observing).  More of an association with some early (Preclassic) of them. 
 

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Book_of_Mormon/Lamanites/Relationship_to_Amerindians/Maya_and_Olmec#Question:_Who_are_the_Maya.2C_and_how_might_they_be_related_to_the_Nephites_or_Lamanites.3F

Edited June 5, 2020 by Calm

[nuclearfuels]

On 6/4/2020 at 11:52 PM, carbon dioxide said:

A little off topic not completely as it related to Mayans so I include it in this Mayan related thread.   Just saw this about a new discovery from LIDAR.

Oldest and largest ancient Maya structure found in Mexico

Scientists using an aerial remote-sensing method have discovered the largest and oldest-known structure built by the ancient Maya civilization - a colossal rectangular elevated platform built between 1,000 and 800 BC in Mexico's Tabasco state....

Located at a site called Aguada Fenix near the Guatemalan border, the structure measured nearly a quarter mile (400 meters) wide and nine-tenths of a mile (1,400 meters) long and stood 33 to 50 feet (10 to 15 meters) high. In total volume, it exceeded ancient Egypt's Great Pyramid of Giza built 1,500 years earlier.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/oldest-largest-ancient-maya-structure-151236592.html

Zarahemla perhaps?

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Mac said:

1834-1836

I must now give you some description of the place where, and the manner in which these records were deposited. 

You are acquainted with the mail road from Palmyra, Wayne Co. to Canandaigua, Ontario Co. N.Y. and also, as you pass from the former to the latter place, before arriving at the little village of Manchester, say from three to four, or about four miles from 

Palmyra, you pass a large hill on the east side of the road. Why I say large, is because it is as large perhaps, as any in that country. To a person acquainted with this road, a description would be unnecessary, as it is the largest and rises the highest of any on that rout. The north end rises quite sudden until it assumes a level with the more southerly extremity, and I think I may say an elevation higher than at the south a short distance, say half or three fourths of a mile. As you pass toward canandaigua it lessens gradually until the surface assumes [p. 85] a level with the moresoutherly extremity, and I think I may, its common level, or is broken by other smaller hills or ridges, water courses and ravines. I think I am justified in saying that this is the highest hill for some distance round, and I am certain that its appearance, as it rises so suddenly from a plain on the north, must attract the notice of the traveller as he passes by. At about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the country, and under a state of cultivation, which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed. By turning to the 529thand 530th pages of the book of Mormon

In the canonical text of Joseph Smith - History 51, Joseph Smith himself does not refer to the hill convenient to Manchester as Cumorah.  The reason is simple:  The Book of Mormon text itself refers to a hill Cumorah, from which the Plates of Mormon were taken by Mormon and given to Moroni.  Moroni then completes the text, and later transports the plates to a hill in what would later become upstate New York -- so that Joseph Smith could find them there.  The hill from which Joseph took the plates is a very separate hill from that in which Mormon kept his cache of records.  Moreover, the small moraine in which Moroni secreted the plates is not situated as a place of massive battle such as is described in the BofM.  Finally, there is no evidence whatsoever of any large-scale civilization in that area such as is described in the BofM.  Only one region in the Western Hemisphere has such a high civilization (literacy, cement, large population, etc.) and that is Mesoamerica.

1 hour ago, Mac said:

120 you will read Mormon’s account of the last great struggle of his people, as they were encamped round this hill Cumorah. (it is printed Camorah, which is an error.) In this vally fell the remaining strength and pride of a once powerful people, the Nephites—.....................................

Camorah is actually not an error.  It is a legitimate variant in the Book of Mormon printer's manuscript, and is used consistently in the 1830 edition.  It is changed to Cumorah in the 1837 edition.  Variant spellings in Hebrew biblical texts are normal, and no scholar would consider revising them.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 5/31/2020 at 10:57 PM, Mac said:

.................................

I guess some don’t how to use JosephSmithpapers.org and would rather believe the Maya lived in New York, near Palmyra.

As suggested by Calm in this thread, most Book of Mormon scholars do not consider the Maya to be the Nephites.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Mac said:

The Mesoamerica Two-Cumorah geography theory for The Book of Mormon, came from the RLDS Church,

I thought you sounded familiar. 
https://www.mormondialogue.org/profile/33601-burnside/

Edited June 6, 2020 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

On 6/4/2020 at 9:52 PM, carbon dioxide said:

............................................................

Oldest and largest ancient Maya structure found in Mexico

Scientists using an aerial remote-sensing method have discovered the largest and oldest-known structure built by the ancient Maya civilization - a colossal rectangular elevated platform built between 1,000 and 800 BC in Mexico's Tabasco state............................................................https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/oldest-largest-ancient-maya-structure-151236592.html

This would be from the same time period as the much greater and more advanced Olmec civilization which existed just to the north of this huge Mayan site.  The Maya and other cultures in Mexico and Mesoamerica participated in the vast Olmec trade network and were heavily influenced by Olmec writing, calendar, and ritual.  Scholars are not yet able to decipher early Maya writing, although they have mastered the later, Classic Maya writing.

[Robert F. Smith]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

I thought you sounded familiar. 
https://www.mormondialogue.org/profile/33601-burnside/

Burnside was a one-trick pony.  😎

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Mac said:

Better than loving and making a lie

Isn’t creating a new alias to get around limited or banned status “making a lie”?

[InCognitus]

28 minutes ago, Mac said:

I know you Mesoamerica types really love you’re messed up theory which originated with the RLDS Church

And men like Martin Luther originated the idea that Christianity needed a course correction.  So?   Not only is your logic faulty, but your facts are wrong.  I'm pretty sure you are well aware of the statements in the article, "American Antiquities," in Times & Seasons 3/18 (July 15, 1842), p. 860, where a central American setting for the Book of Mormon is suggested.  So obviously the RLDS Church didn't "originate" this idea, unless you are suggesting that the RLDS Church published the Times & Seasons.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Mac said:

Better than loving and making a lie (D&C 63:17) 😎

https://archive.bookofmormoncentral.org/sites/default/files/archive-files/pdf/sorenson/2020-01-24/john_l._sorenson_the_geography_of_book_of_mormon_events_a_source_book_1990.pdf

LE Hills 1924 

“Hills, an RLDS student of the Book of Mormon, seems to deserve credit for many innovations: (1) the first regionally limited model, (2) that the lands where Book of Mormon events took place comprised exclusively Mesoamerica, (3) that the Isthmus of Tehuantepec was the narrow neck, (4) that the Usumacinta was the Sidon, and (5) the first comprehensive attempt to utilize secular scholarly literature (on the native chronicles or traditions) to settle Book of Mormon questions. The first point involves both the landing of Lehi's party in Central America and the presence of the hill Cumorah of the final Nephite battles in Mexico; actually, then, the concept of "two Cumorahs" goes back at least 75 years.“

Pages 31-33

Here’s LE Hills 1924 book, Dr Sorenson did NOT mention in his above 1990 Source Book:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89058377359&view=1up&seq=5

Hills died in 1926, two years after Dr. Sorenson was born.

Hills was cool. He was a soldier and knew and served under General George Armstrong Custer.

See page 143 of his account with Custer:

http://www.latterdaytruth.org/pdf/100008.pdf

 

I know you Mesoamerica types really love you’re messed up theory which originated with the RLDS Church, but Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery resolved all this in 1834, you just can’t handle it.

But you can always promote Mesoamerica by making donations to Book of Mormon Central and The Interpreter Foundation, the remaining ragtag remnants of F.A.R.M.S. It’s a good way to waste your money.

That's the thing about one-trick ponies:  They never learn anything new, even when the audience has heard all those tired and hackneyed phrases. 

[Kenngo1969]

"Hello, my name is Burnside, aka Mac, and I'd like to play for you today my latest composition for piano."

 

[theplains]

On 6/6/2020 at 1:41 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Scholars are not yet able to decipher early Maya writing, although they have mastered the later, Classic Maya writing.

The LDS President should be able to figure this out with the seer stones.

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

The LDS President should be able to figure this out with the seer stones.

Sneer much, Jim?  (Of course, if you didn't do that it seems that you wouldn't have much to do at all, so ... )

[theplains]

14 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Sneer much, Jim?  (Of course, if you didn't do that it seems that you wouldn't have much to do at all, so ... )

Do you believe the LDS President has the gift to translate ancient records?

[longview]

38 minutes ago, theplains said:

Do you believe the LDS President has the gift to translate ancient records?

Joseph Smith began his various translation work at the prompting/command of the Lord.  Not every obscure ancient script are up to standards for scripture.  I am hoping we will someday recover the Lost 116 Pages as well as those of other Lost Tribes.

[Robert F. Smith]

20 hours ago, theplains said:

The LDS President should be able to figure this out with the seer stones.

Well, yes, if there were a reason for him to do so -- such as translating a holy text.   Are you speaking for God and assigning some holy text to the Prophet to be translated?

[Kenngo1969]

14 hours ago, theplains said:

Do you believe the LDS President has the gift to translate ancient records?

If I thought you were attempting to dialogue with me in good faith, I would be glad to answer your question.  However, I do not, so I will not.  But, thanks fer playin'!