alter idem Posted May 14, 2020 Posted May 14, 2020 On 5/13/2020 at 3:05 PM, bluebell said: More variety would be nice. I don't think the approved pictures are correlation (or at least, that correlation isn't the only reason) as much as they are a sign that our leadership wants to make sure exuberant members don't put up art work that isn't supported by our doctrine or isn't recognizable on who it's supposed to be to the average person off the street. For example, my wonderful friend put up some pieces that she would love to see used in our buildings instead of the approved pieces, a couple of them so abstract (beautiful, but definitely out there) that most people would not know, looking at them, that they were supposed to be a representation of the Savior. That doesn't mean that there isn't room for more options that are more varied and fit more local cultures (hopefully we'll get those options eventually), but I think it does mean that the church can't just give free reign to local leaders and hope for the best. You both seem to think that they can only put up 'approved' pictures. Is this true? When my husband ordered pictures for the Family history library, they were not the usual ones, he did show them to the Bishop who said, 'great'. Also, when my husband bought pictures for the Bishop's office, he was able to choose what he wanted, he didn't have to run it by anyone. I really think Bishops have a lot of leeway in what's put in their buildings. And this is why this is being highlighted by the present administration. Maybe over the years, as they've had the ability to put in artwork of their own choosing, they're being asked to reevaluate and make an effort to make sure pictures of the Savior are hung in the foyers. My Stake center has original works of sacred art on the walls because the artist lived in our Stake boundaries and donated them and this was within the last ten years.
bluebell Posted May 14, 2020 Author Posted May 14, 2020 35 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: You had previously suggested that leaders couldn't trust local leaders to decide on art, to the extent that they can only choose from 27 pictures to hang. I'm suggesting that the general leaders may not have a very high level of confidence in local leadership if they can't be trusted with such a basic thing. Local leaders make much bigger decisions on a regular basis which impact the souls of many members. Those are major decisions. Art isn't. So either the general leaders are being petty or just really like their 27 pictures, or they really don't have as much confidence in local leaders as we might think/hope/expect. I get what you are saying, I just disagree (and it's fine, I don't think we have to agree on this) and think your 'either/or' options are unreasonable. Art may be basic, but opinions about art are not. It's not a major decision but it's a very very (HUGELY) subjective one, which means it's really really hard to regulate, even in the best of circumstances. This is true whether art is a minor thing or a major thing. And people extrapolate our doctrine from the art we use, which means that doctrinally incorrect art can become a major thing under the right conditions. And since the art is such a minor thing, as you said, I don't see anything nefarious if leaders don't want to give such a minor, very personally subjective, topic the opportunity to cause major issues. Having said that, I think there is room for more choices and I hope we get them. I'm not a huge fan of most of those paintings that are offered and would like more variety. But having seen some of paintings that a few people are advocating for online, I can see why the church is correlating it. Some people's idea of 'art focused on the Savior' makes me shudder a bit. 4
bluebell Posted May 14, 2020 Author Posted May 14, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, alter idem said: You both seem to think that they can only put up 'approved' pictures. Is this true? When my husband ordered pictures for the Family history library, they were not the usual ones, he did show them to the Bishop who said, 'great'. Also, when my husband bought pictures for the Bishop's office, he was able to choose what he wanted, he didn't have to run it by anyone. I really think Bishops have a lot of leeway in what's put in their buildings. And this is why this is being highlighted by the present administration. Maybe over the years, as they've had the ability to put in artwork of their own choosing, they're being asked to reevaluate and make an effort to make sure pictures of the Savior are hung in the foyers. My Stake center has original works of sacred art on the walls because the artist lived in our Stake boundaries and donated them and this was within the last ten years. That's what the link says, pictures must be chosen from the approved list. I'm sure the list is smaller than the options available for use in other rooms in the building, or other buildings. Choose replacement art, if needed, from the Approved Selection of Foyer Artwork (attached to the First Presidency letter) and follow approved sizes and quality standards. At the bottom of this link it shows the options available. Edited May 14, 2020 by bluebell 2
Scott Lloyd Posted May 14, 2020 Posted May 14, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, theplains said: My background is not LDS, but I have read some of the church teaching manuals. There are many people who claim they believe in Christ but their understanding of his nature is wrong. I reject your insinuation that because you disagree with me in some respects about the nature of Christ that I am ergo not Christian and do not believe in Him. I believe it is partly due to such false claims that Church leaders have and are making a concerted effort to convey to everyone that this is indeed the Church of Jesus Christ. Edited May 15, 2020 by Scott Lloyd 4
alter idem Posted May 14, 2020 Posted May 14, 2020 34 minutes ago, bluebell said: That's what the link says, pictures must be chosen from the approved list. I'm sure the list is smaller than the options available for use in other rooms in the building, or other buildings. Choose replacement art, if needed, from the Approved Selection of Foyer Artwork (attached to the First Presidency letter) and follow approved sizes and quality standards. At the bottom of this link it shows the options available. I guess. Maybe they just want the Foyers to be in the approved artwork. I know my ward buildings and Stake center have a lot of unapproved artwork throughout (though not in the Chapel proper). I've also been to ward buildings that had a lot of nice artwork which I noticed that wasn't the regular fare. I'm not sure how enforced it is that only the approved artwork can be displayed in the building. 1
bluebell Posted May 14, 2020 Author Posted May 14, 2020 12 minutes ago, alter idem said: I guess. Maybe they just want the Foyers to be in the approved artwork. I know my ward buildings and Stake center have a lot of unapproved artwork throughout (though not in the Chapel proper). I've also been to ward buildings that had a lot of nice artwork which I noticed that wasn't the regular fare. I'm not sure how enforced it is that only the approved artwork can be displayed in the building. That could be. My only experience with it is a YM's leader a year ago trying to get some artwork for the YM rooms and my bishop talking about getting a new picture for his office. Both mentioned having to go through the specific channels to get approved for it. But I know almost nothing about the topic otherwise. 1
Popular Post InCognitus Posted May 15, 2020 Popular Post Posted May 15, 2020 3 hours ago, theplains said: There are many people who claim they believe in Christ but their understanding of his nature is wrong. "Wrong", according to.... who? According to popular opinion on Bible interpretation? According to the people in power at the time? According to the guy who holds the torch up to the person about to be burned at the stake? One man's orthodoxy is another man's heresy. God is the one with the answers. 6
Calm Posted May 15, 2020 Posted May 15, 2020 5 hours ago, Maureen said: Only in Utah can people come up with the craziest names and spellings for their children. It's as if they forget these babies will eventually grow up to become adults. I'm pretty sure there's at least one Brykynlay out there in Utah somewhere. The article is funny, but there are poor children out there with awful names. 😃 https://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/25-of-the-most-unique-names-in-utah-valley/collection_f0d3f110-c84f-565d-af2c-bcee5ee2940d.html M. One good thing about it at least in my neck of the woods, there appears to be less bullying about odd names. I have asked a couple of kids with more unusual spellings if it is a problem for them and all have said no bullying. 2
Calm Posted May 15, 2020 Posted May 15, 2020 4 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: You had previously suggested that leaders couldn't trust local leaders to decide on art, to the extent that they can only choose from 27 pictures to hang. I'm suggesting that the general leaders may not have a very high level of confidence in local leadership if they can't be trusted with such a basic thing. Local leaders make much bigger decisions on a regular basis which impact the souls of many members. Those are major decisions. Art isn't. So either the general leaders are being petty or just really like their 27 pictures, or they really don't have as much confidence in local leaders as we might think/hope/expect. Maybe it is more they don’t want bishops to have to waste their time with local members either promoting their favorite picture or artist or condemning someone else’s. Iow, it is not the bishop they are worried about. 3
Calm Posted May 15, 2020 Posted May 15, 2020 3 hours ago, alter idem said: think some churches look technically at the title 'Christian' as being a religion that accepts the Nicean creed, There are even some who refuse to accept Catholics as Christian. 1
Calm Posted May 15, 2020 Posted May 15, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, theplains said: Jehovah's Witnesses also claim to believe in Christ but their understanding of his nature is wrong - since he is said to be Michael the Archangel. Muslims believe in Christ - but to them he is a prophet. Others believe and worship Heavenly Father - but to them, he is a man who became a God. So do you see us as nonChristian, plains? Is that why you spend time of a faith not yours? Edited May 15, 2020 by Calm
Calm Posted May 15, 2020 Posted May 15, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, alter idem said: I guess. Maybe they just want the Foyers to be in the approved artwork. I know my ward buildings and Stake center have a lot of unapproved artwork throughout (though not in the Chapel proper). I've also been to ward buildings that had a lot of nice artwork which I noticed that wasn't the regular fare. I'm not sure how enforced it is that only the approved artwork can be displayed in the building. This is the current official info sheet for selecting artwork, probably not updated for the recent change yet. https://aec.ldschurch.org/aec/design_guidelines/SupportDocs/MeetinghouseArtworkGuidelines.pdf Sorry, can’t get the relevant part to copy about Church approved artwork. The way it is written I can see how some might interpret it as only Church approved and others might interpret it as when using Church approved. And then there are those local leaders (stake I am assuming) who believe these are indeed guidelines and not rigid rules, so exceptions can be made. Edited May 15, 2020 by Calm 2
Tacenda Posted May 15, 2020 Posted May 15, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, alter idem said: I think one reason may be that the pendulum went too far a few decades back when the church and it's members were trying to distinguish themselves from other churches. I remember hearing a man one time (this was when I was much younger) say, 'I'm not Christian, I'm Mormon' I think this opinion was much more prevalent 40 years ago, and his meaning was that he wasn't a member of a protestant church, which he equated as being 'Christian'. But, what impression was he giving person he said this to? The wrong impression. That's the problem, I see. Our theology is not the problem, if you look at The Book of Mormon, the Cornerstone of our religion, a belief in Jesus Christ dominates it. Even the Doctrine and Covenants is full of references to Christ, as well as the Pearl of Great Price. There's no question we worship him as the Son of God, like other Christians. Everything in our theology centers on the Savior Jesus Christ and his divine mission in the plan of Salvation. I think some churches look technically at the title 'Christian' as being a religion that accepts the Nicean creed, and if a religion does not accept it, they can't call themselves Christian. There's nothing we can do to change that mindset, we aren't going to accept the Nicean creed just so we can be accepted. The theology I'm thinking of is saying He is our brother. I wonder which faiths also believe that, I doubt any or very few. They believe Jesus is God incarnate. Also, some or most, don't believe in the pre-existence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-existence But apparently some non-LDS Christians believe in one, I say this because for one, Garth Brook's song called, "Time To Meet Your Mom". Edited May 15, 2020 by Tacenda
JLHPROF Posted May 15, 2020 Posted May 15, 2020 14 hours ago, theplains said: Jehovah's Witnesses also claim to believe in Christ but their understanding of his nature is wrong - since he is said to be Michael the Archangel. Muslims believe in Christ - but to them he is a prophet. Others believe and worship Heavenly Father - but to them, he is a man who became a God. 14 hours ago, theplains said: My background is not LDS, but I have read some of the church teaching manuals. There are many people who claim they believe in Christ but their understanding of his nature is wrong. Even the devils believe and tremble right? Fortunately Christ said not everyone who says Lord, Lord (ie, believes) will enter his kingdom. But those that do God's will.
alter idem Posted May 15, 2020 Posted May 15, 2020 12 hours ago, Tacenda said: The theology I'm thinking of is saying He is our brother. I wonder which faiths also believe that, I doubt any or very few. They believe Jesus is God incarnate. Also, some or most, don't believe in the pre-existence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-existence But apparently some non-LDS Christians believe in one, I say this because for one, Garth Brook's song called, "Time To Meet Your Mom". ☺️thumbs up.
2BizE Posted May 15, 2020 Posted May 15, 2020 I really like this request. Entering the foyer should set a tone for the meetings of the day. Seeing Christ and only Christ will help us remember the savior, and not necessarily the poster for the upcoming Super Saturday. 1
MiserereNobis Posted May 15, 2020 Posted May 15, 2020 22 hours ago, Calm said: There are even some who refuse to accept Catholics as Christian. Yeah, we're on a few cult watch lists
MiserereNobis Posted May 15, 2020 Posted May 15, 2020 On 5/14/2020 at 3:44 PM, theplains said: My background is not LDS, but I have read some of the church teaching manuals. There are many people who claim they believe in Christ but their understanding of his nature is wrong. I might say that anyone who claims to fully understand Christ's nature has a problem with hubris. Yes, I'm an orthodox Catholic and a firm believer in the Nicene creed, but those are just hints and symbols to what God really is. The understanding of His true nature eludes us while we're here on earth. It's a mystery to us now. We're looking through a glass darkly... 3
theplains Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 On 5/14/2020 at 9:23 PM, InCognitus said: "Wrong", according to.... who? According to popular opinion on Bible interpretation? According to the people in power at the time? According to the guy who holds the torch up to the person about to be burned at the stake? One man's orthodoxy is another man's heresy. God is the one with the answers. I believe God has already left answers in the Bible as to his true nature.
theplains Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 On 5/14/2020 at 9:34 PM, Calm said: So do you see us as nonChristian, plains? Is that why you spend time of a faith not yours? Do you see Jehovah's Witnesses as Christian when they believe in Jesus (Michael the Archangel)?
theplains Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 On 5/15/2020 at 8:24 AM, JLHPROF said: Even the devils believe and tremble right? Correct. But they don't fear another angel.
theplains Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 14 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: The understanding of His true nature eludes us while we're here on earth. It's a mystery to us now. We're looking through a glass darkly... Either he always existed as God or he was a man who became a God like Joseph Smith taught.
Rain Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 56 minutes ago, theplains said: Do you see Jehovah's Witnesses as Christian when they believe in Jesus (Michael the Archangel)? First, she was asking for your personal opinion. It doesn't matter how we see Jehovah Witnesses. Second, Wikipedia says (since I didn't know how they believed so looked it up and hopefully this is correct): " While on earth, Jesus was executed as a sacrifice to atone for mankind's sins, becoming the "eternal father" to the human family". My personal opinion, not necessarily anyone else's from my church, is since they believe he atoned for our sins, is yes, they are Christian even though they have a very different understanding of who he was than we do. Now I do know someone who calls herself Christian, but believes Jesus was only a prophet and never atoned, had no relation to God, was not God. Just a good man. I don't feel that fits the definition of Christian, but since she tries to follow his teachings I understand why she feels she is Christian. 1
Tacenda Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 15 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: Yeah, we're on a few cult watch lists When you say this, it reminds me of President Kennedy, when he first ran for presidency, it was a problem that he was a Catholic, which surprised me when I first heard about it.
Calm Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 4 hours ago, theplains said: Do you see Jehovah's Witnesses as Christian when they believe in Jesus (Michael the Archangel)? Yes, I do.
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