Pres. Eyring, Kirtland, and Gathering Israel

[Duncan]

One of my favourite talks this past conference was from Pres. Eyring. Now, that the text is up for the talks, I read and I am going off my memory but he said that in 1836 the leaders, missionaries needed to have the endowment, as it existed at the time, to gather Israel and go abroad. I was wondering why not before? They seem limited, but wasn't the US part of Israel? There would be no Kirtland Temple or anyone in it if it wasn't for missionary work, why wasn't the endowment needed before? Samuel Smith went out in and he didn't seem to need the endowment and because of him he  contacted John Greene he contacted Brigham Young. IIRC Pres. Eyring said there was a step by step process for gathering Israel but what was the step prior to 1836 and the endowment? like you didn't need an endowment to share the Gospel in the US but you did when they went to other countries like Canada and Great Britain et al.?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

One of my favourite talks this past conference was from Pres. Eyring. Now, that the text is up for the talks, I read and I am going off my memory but he said that in 1836 the leaders, missionaries needed to have the endowment, as it existed at the time, to gather Israel and go abroad. I was wondering why not before? They seem limited, but wasn't the US part of Israel? There would be no Kirtland Temple or anyone in it if it wasn't for missionary work, why wasn't the endowment needed before? Samuel Smith went out in and he didn't seem to need the endowment and because of him he  contacted John Greene he contacted Brigham Young. IIRC Pres. Eyring said there was a step by step process for gathering Israel but what was the step prior to 1836 and the endowment? like you didn't need an endowment to share the Gospel in the US but you did when they went to other countries like Canada and Great Britain et al.?

One of Joseph’s greatest revelations was the dedication prayer, given by to him for the Kirkland Temple. Also the astonishing visions which he and others received in the Kirkland Temple, of which President Eyring also spoke of, and as recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants,, if memory serves are contained in a short, but powerful section 101. He gave, in his sermon, a wonderful reminder of what separates us for other religious movements, during the “great awakening”, that he also spoke of, I always love his sermons. On the lighter side, one Apostle lived up to everyone’s prediction, and included “aviation” into his sermon. 😆 It too was a wonderful sermon as well, I love how he, like President Hinckley used his wit to make fun of himself. I truly miss President Hinckley, he was always a joy to hear from. I truly wish that the RLDS or COC, would sell the Kirkland Temple to us, since they have rejected over the year so many things which the Prophet Joseph Smith reported to have happened, including his account of the Book of Mormon. Now claiming it to be little more than a religious novel, that there is no need for Temples or what takes place in them, and many more rejections of Latter-day Saint teachings. It would be wonderful for it to be our Temple again, and be dedicated, as a beacon to the world.  🌎  

[JamesBYoung]

 

We need to remember that Joseph evolved the endowment over time from 1831 to 1844.  The following is generally from Melvin C. Johnson's article last fall in Fall/Winter edition of the JWHA Journal.

---

The first endowment was the occasion on which the elders gathered together in conference and were “endowed” by ordination to a “high priesthood” to empower their missionary service. As John Whitmer wrote on June 3, 1831: [c]onference was opened by prayer and exhortation by Joseph Smith, Jr., the Revelator. After the business of the Church was attended to according to the covenants. The Lord made manifest to Joseph that it was necessary that such of the elders as were considered worthy, should be ordained to the High Priesthood.  Smith then “laid his hands upon Lyman Wight [and ordained him] to the High Priesthood after the Holy Order of God.” This was the first of many such ordinations. Wight then prophesied, “concerning the coming of Christ, he said that there were some in the congregation that should live until the Savior should descend from heaven, with a shout, with all the holy angels with him.” Wight concluded that some of his fellow members would suffer death, sealing their
testimonies with their own blood.

The next endowment proceedings was heralded by a proclamation at Kirtland in 1836 directed the members to prepare to “accept spiritual gifts.” Prior to the temple dedication, preparatory rituals began, including separate rites such as the washing of parts of the body (including the distinct ordinance of foot-washing), various anointings, blessings, and participation in the sacrament of communion. These rites were then sealed on the participants as they gave the great “hosanna shout,” led by Sydney Rigdon.  Celebrants reported that during the dedication they witnessed displays of visions, speaking in tongues, prophesying, the presence of the Holy Spirit, pillars of flames, and other spiritual manifestations.

---

Thus, the first manifestation of the endowment was to be ordination to a high priesthood to empower the missionaries.

The next manifestation was to be endowed with spiritual gifts.

Edited April 8, 2020 by JamesBYoung

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

One of my favourite talks this past conference was from Pres. Eyring. Now, that the text is up for the talks, I read and I am going off my memory but he said that in 1836 the leaders, missionaries needed to have the endowment, as it existed at the time, to gather Israel and go abroad. I was wondering why not before? They seem limited, but wasn't the US part of Israel? There would be no Kirtland Temple or anyone in it if it wasn't for missionary work, why wasn't the endowment needed before? Samuel Smith went out in and he didn't seem to need the endowment and because of him he  contacted John Greene he contacted Brigham Young. IIRC Pres. Eyring said there was a step by step process for gathering Israel but what was the step prior to 1836 and the endowment? like you didn't need an endowment to share the Gospel in the US but you did when they went to other countries like Canada and Great Britain et al.?

The most important rule is that there are no rules, by which I mean that we often think that we should be hemmed in by rigid restrictions.  The huge harvest of souls which took place in England and Scandanavia after receipt of the Endowment was truly astonishing.  Everything before it seemed small and preparatory.  Over time there has been a very strong and complex development of the LDS Church, even though we did not have the Endowment on day one.  That's why Pres Eyring was speaking of a step-by-step process.  Everything in its proper order.

[Avatar4321]

On 4/8/2020 at 2:31 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

The most important rule is that there are no rules, by which I mean that we often think that we should be hemmed in by rigid restrictions.  The huge harvest of souls which took place in England and Scandanavia after receipt of the Endowment was truly astonishing.  Everything before it seemed small and preparatory.  Over time there has been a very strong and complex development of the LDS Church, even though we did not have the Endowment on day one.  That's why Pres Eyring was speaking of a step-by-step process.  Everything in its proper order.

We’re still doing it one step at a time

[theplains]

On 4/8/2020 at 3:31 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

The most important rule is that there are no rules, by which I mean that we often think that we should be hemmed in by rigid restrictions.  The huge harvest of souls which took place in England and Scandanavia after receipt of the Endowment was truly astonishing.  Everything before it seemed small and preparatory.  Over time there has been a very strong and complex development of the LDS Church, even though we did not have the Endowment on day one.  That's why Pres Eyring was speaking of a step-by-step process.  Everything in its proper order.

Did the New Testament Church or the church in the Book of Mormon have the Endowment?

[longview]

17 minutes ago, theplains said:

Did the New Testament Church or the church in the Book of Mormon have the Endowment?

I was wondering recently about king Benjamin's talk with the people of Zarahemla gathered around the temple.  At one point Benjamin knew the people had received an outpouring of the spirit.  They all cried with one voice that they were willing to enter into a covenant (see Mosiah 5).  I am pretty sure that most had already been baptized.  Was the new covenant they were making akin to embracing the Law of Consecration?  It was done en masse in a temple setting.  Was this a foreshadowing of the "full" endowment?

[Ahab]

On 4/8/2020 at 8:30 AM, Duncan said:

One of my favourite talks this past conference was from Pres. Eyring. Now, that the text is up for the talks, I read and I am going off my memory but he said that in 1836 the leaders, missionaries needed to have the endowment, as it existed at the time, to gather Israel and go abroad. I was wondering why not before? They seem limited, but wasn't the US part of Israel? There would be no Kirtland Temple or anyone in it if it wasn't for missionary work, why wasn't the endowment needed before? Samuel Smith went out in and he didn't seem to need the endowment and because of him he  contacted John Greene he contacted Brigham Young. IIRC Pres. Eyring said there was a step by step process for gathering Israel but what was the step prior to 1836 and the endowment? like you didn't need an endowment to share the Gospel in the US but you did when they went to other countries like Canada and Great Britain et al.?

What was needed for the gathering of Israel were the "keys" to gather Israel.  Keys are basically our Lord's authorization to direct a particular kind of work, in this case the work of gathering Israel, and the keys are held by only one mortal person on Earth at a time, if anyone on Earth has those particular keys.

I think your idea that a temple endowment was needed before Israel could be gathered is a bit off the mark, if by temple endowment you're referring to the same temple endowment we now can receive in a temple.  That temple endowment we can receive in a temple gives us the names and tokens and signs needed to return to our Father in heaven, and the keys to gather Israel are something different that are given for a different purpose.  We won't need the names and tokens and signs we receive from a temple endowment until we cross the veil and are attempting to return to our Father in heaven, but we can help to gather Israel now and our Lord has given a mortal man the keys for that work so that the work of those who have held those keys will be recognized in heaven as well as on Earth.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Ahab

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

Did the New Testament Church or the church in the Book of Mormon have the Endowment?

Yes, of course.

[Ahab]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

Did the New Testament Church or the church in the Book of Mormon have the Endowment?

Are you talking about the endowment we can receive in our temples today,  the endowments where we can obtain the names and signs and tokens necessary to be able to return to the presence of our Father in heaven?

I don't know if they had them or not but I believe they are going to need them if they are ever going to return to his presence.  They're not needed until they are needed so it's not as if they had to have them way back then.

[Duncan]

6 hours ago, Ahab said:

What was needed for the gathering of Israel were the "keys" to gather Israel.  Keys are basically our Lord's authorization to direct a particular kind of work, in this case the work of gathering Israel, and the keys are held by only one mortal person on Earth at a time, if anyone on Earth has those particular keys.

I think your idea that a temple endowment was needed before Israel could be gathered is a bit off the mark, if by temple endowment you're referring to the same temple endowment we now can receive in a temple.  That temple endowment we can receive in a temple gives us the names and tokens and signs needed to return to our Father in heaven, and the keys to gather Israel are something different that are given for a different purpose.  We won't need the names and tokens and signs we receive from a temple endowment until we cross the veil and are attempting to return to our Father in heaven, but we can help to gather Israel now and our Lord has given a mortal man the keys for that work so that the work of those who have held those keys will be recognized in heaven as well as on Earth.

What do you think Pres. Eyring when talking about when he said they needed the keys to be delivered before they went abroad to gather Israel? why didn't think need them before?

[theplains]

On 4/16/2020 at 3:00 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, of course.

How do you know that?

[theplains]

On 4/16/2020 at 3:13 PM, Ahab said:

Are you talking about the endowment we can receive in our temples today,  the endowments where we can obtain the names and signs and tokens necessary to be able to return to the presence of our Father in heaven?

I don't know if they had them or not but I believe they are going to need them if they are ever going to return to his presence.  They're not needed until they are needed so it's not as if they had to have them way back then.

Yes. I was referring to Book of Mormon times since very little is mentioned about temple activities therein.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, theplains said:

How do you know that?

You asked "Did the New Testament Church or the church in the Book of Mormon have the Endowment?"  And I answered Yes, of course.

The way one normally draws conclusions in such matters is to do the research.  One of the best resources on NT Church esoterica (the kinds and types of liturgy and covenants entailed in ancient temple rites) is to consult the materials online at https://web.archive.org/web/20190925143111/http://fortydayministry.com/

You can find all the topics and themes from ancient and LDS temple rites listed there, with specific documents attesting them.  The bibliography provided there is particularly helpful.  You can get a brief scholarly discussion of what that generally means on the LDS Church website at https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1975/08/the-40-day-ministry?lang=eng

Since such matters are very sacred, they are seldom discussed explicitly and openly by faithful believers.  However, if you want to understand the actual meaning and structure of the Sermon on the Mount, I recommend reading John W. Welch, Illuminating the Sermon at the Temple & Sermon on the Mount (FARMS, 1999).  Secular and skeptical commentators often imagine that such material was merely a pastiche carelessly thrown together, and that Jesus never delivered such a sermon.  The opposite was certainly true, Jim.

Furthermore, some readers have noted that the first two books of Nephi in the BofM contain the well-known temple rite sequence:  Plan of Salvation: (1) Foundation-Creation I Ne 1 - 18, (2) Division-Fall I Ne 19 - II Ne 5, (3) Redemption-Atonement II Ne 6 - 30, and (4) Conclusion-Veil II Ne 31-33; so Joe Spencer, An Other Testament, 42-63, with strong Israelite temple motifs; N. Rappleye, “Nephi the Good: A Commentary on 1 Nephi 1:1-3,” MormonInterpreter Blog, Jan 3, 2014, online at  http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/nephi-the-good-a-commentary-on-1-nephi-11-3/#more-4490 , observing that Nephi only began his record after building a temple (II Ne 5:16,28-30).

See also Book of Mormon Central, “Why Did Moroni Use Temple Imagery While Telling the Brother of Jared Story? (Ether 3:20),” KnoWhy #237 (Nov 23, 2016), online at https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/why-did-moroni-use-temple-imagery-while-telling-the-brother-of-jared-story .

 

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Robert F. Smith

[Bernard Gui]

On 4/16/2020 at 9:14 AM, theplains said:

Did the New Testament Church or the church in the Book of Mormon have the Endowment?

What do you think of this?

Mormon 9

Quote

11 But behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles, even the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that same God who created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.
12 Behold, he created Adam, and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man.
13 And because of the redemption of man, which came by Jesus Christ, they are brought back into the presence of the Lord; yea, this is wherein all men are redeemed, because the death of Christ bringeth to pass the resurrection,

Also Alma 42.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Ahab]

On 4/16/2020 at 6:02 PM, Duncan said:

What do you think Pres. Eyring when talking about when he said they needed the keys to be delivered before they went abroad to gather Israel? why didn't think need them before?

I think he meant we (the Church) needed our Lord's authorization to gather Israel together, rather than attempting to do that work on our own without our Lord's authorization.  The need for keys to do our Lord's work is why Joseph Smith needed the keys to restore our Lord's church, and one of those keys was the key (our Lord's authorization to direct the work) of gathering Israel.  Attempting to do our Lord's work without keys is the way of the world, all false priest crafts, and is not the proper way for our Lord's church to function on this planet.

I'm not sure what you mean by asking why Joseph (our Lord's representative who was selected to receive the keys of the kingdom in our dispensation) didn't need them before.  Before what?  Joseph did need the keys to gather Israel, and without them he wasn't authorized to do it.  And he got them as soon as he was ready to get them, very soon after a temple had been built where he could receive them.  Before that he had taken only very basic steps, like being baptized and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and being ordained to basic offices in the priesthood, first a priest and then an elder and then a high priest.  But he had no keys until those who had them gave those keys to him, not having the keys to gather Israel until Moses gave those to him.

[Duncan]

5 hours ago, Ahab said:

I think he meant we (the Church) needed our Lord's authorization to gather Israel together, rather than attempting to do that work on our own without our Lord's authorization.  The need for keys to do our Lord's work is why Joseph Smith needed the keys to restore our Lord's church, and one of those keys was the key (our Lord's authorization to direct the work) of gathering Israel.  Attempting to do our Lord's work without keys is the way of the world, all false priest crafts, and is not the proper way for our Lord's church to function on this planet.

I'm not sure what you mean by asking why Joseph (our Lord's representative who was selected to receive the keys of the kingdom in our dispensation) didn't need them before.  Before what?  Joseph did need the keys to gather Israel, and without them he wasn't authorized to do it.  And he got them as soon as he was ready to get them, very soon after a temple had been built where he could receive them.  Before that he had taken only very basic steps, like being baptized and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and being ordained to basic offices in the priesthood, first a priest and then an elder and then a high priest.  But he had no keys until those who had them gave those keys to him, not having the keys to gather Israel until Moses gave those to him.

before 1836 When Moses gave them to Joseph in the Kirtland Temple. Wasn't the Missionary work prior to 1836 gathering Israel also-without the Keys? If missionary work is the same pre 1836 in the US as it was after they got the keys in 1836 what difference do keys even make/ I know what Keys mean, the directing of the work-weren't they directing the work before 1836?

[theplains]

On 4/19/2020 at 7:06 PM, Bernard Gui said:

What do you think of this?

Mormon 9

Also Alma 42.

I don't see the Endowment Ceremony there.

[RevTestament]

On 4/16/2020 at 10:14 AM, theplains said:

Did the New Testament Church or the church in the Book of Mormon have the Endowment?

Despite Robert's point about endowment themes being in the early Church, I strongly believe the early Church did not have the endowment in its present form. So, what's wrong with that?  Joseph received the promised everlasting covenant of Isaiah, which wasn't meant for the early Church. 

Is 61:

6 But ye shall be named the ^aPriests of the Lord: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the ^briches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

7 ¶ For your shame ye shall have ^adouble; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess ^bthe double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.

8 For I the Lord love ^ajudgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting ^bcovenant with them.

9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the ^aseed which the Lord hath blessed.

The endowment is a precursor to the everlasting covenant. In its present form it wasn't needed in the early Church, but I have to admit that Robert  correctly points out there were aspects of it, which may have started during the 40 days Yeshua spent with the apostles. Obviously, baptism for the dead was introduced at that time, but is only known because Paul mentions it incidentally in trying to convince his readers of the reality of the resurrection, and it is mentioned as being stamped out by the Orthodox Church.

Edited April 25, 2020 by RevTestament

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, theplains said:

I don't see the Endowment Ceremony there.

I do. The pre-mortal existence and Council. The Creation. Life in the Garden.The Fall. The Earthly Probation. The World.The provision of a Savior. The Resurrection and Judgement, returning to the presence of God. 

Quote

Mormon 9:11 But behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles, even the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that same God who created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.12 Behold, he created Adam, and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man.
13 And because of the redemption of man, which came by Jesus Christ, they are brought back into the presence of the Lord; yea, this is wherein all men are redeemed, because the death of Christ bringeth to pass the resurrection, which bringeth to pass a redemption from an endless sleep, from which sleep all men shall be awakened by the power of God when the trump shall sound; and they shall come forth, both small and great, and all shall stand before his bar, being redeemed and loosed from this eternal band of death, which death is a temporal death.
14 And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still.

Alma 42, the entire chapter is a rehearsal of the temple narrative.

Of course there are sacred parts that are not included.

Edited April 25, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

3 hours ago, RevTestament said:

The endowment is a precursor to the everlasting covenant.

There is more than one “an everlasting covenant”. Baptism is an everlasting covenant and the endowment comes after that. 

Edited April 25, 2020 by Calm

[RevTestament]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

There is more than one “an everlasting covenant”. Baptism is an everlasting covenant and the endowment comes after that. 

I am speaking of the everlasting covenant the Lord promised to make with the Gentiles "in their land." I don't read that as the covenant(s) He made with the Jews. The everlasting covenant made with marriage is entirely new as far as I can tell.

[Ahab]

On 4/23/2020 at 5:24 PM, Duncan said:

Wasn't the Missionary work prior to 1836 gathering Israel also-without the Keys?

If by "missionary work" you're referring to preaching the gospel or baptizing people into the true Church of Jesus Christ, no that isn't (quite) the same thing as gathering Israel, in my understanding.  Similar to how "missionary work" isn't the same thing as establishing Zion, in my understanding.   Those things are all associated with each other, but each issue is a bit different, in my understanding.  But I suppose it depends on how one defines or understands what is meant by the terms "missionary work" or "gathering Israel" or "establishing Zion".

In my understanding, "missionary work" usually refers to simply "preaching the gospel", although it can also refer to any type of work involving missions or missionaries/messengers who are sent to deliver a message.  And "gathering Israel" usually refers to the work of gathering all who are already members of the house of Israel, which would include gathering members of the Church together as one united body of believers.... united in purpose, or by covenant, not necessary in the same physical location.  And "establishing Zion", in my understanding, refers to the work of helping everyone to be pure in heart and/or mind, which is essentially the work involving perfecting those who are called to be the saints (sanctified) through Jesus Christ, who is at the heart of our message and the reason we strive to share the good news of him with others as we have the opportunity to share what we believe with each other and all other people.

On 4/23/2020 at 5:24 PM, Duncan said:

If missionary work is the same pre 1836 in the US as it was after they got the keys in 1836 what difference do keys even make/ I know what Keys mean, the directing of the work-weren't they directing the work before 1836?

I'll just say again that I suppose it depends on what one has in mind as what they refer to as "missionary work".