Romney's Decision Process for Vote on Impeachment

[Analytics]

11 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Excellent statement. Just leave it there and don't go into the deeply religious and the hymn and the scriptures and references to the Church. Once more for the record, I have no issue with his decision. I wish he had left the Church out of it.

Nah. Rather than just leaving it there, I'll leave with a quote from the Deseret News editorial board:

Unfortunately, the light of faith continues to be banished from the public square and exiled from community conversations, but faith is a unique and powerful dimension of diversity and should be treated as an integral part of local and national conversations....In a pluralistic nation, the light of hope and the candle of faith are central to strengthening civil society and must be allowed to shine to and from every citizen.

https://www.deseret.com/2019/3/8/20667776/in-our-opinion-rome-temple-is-a-reminder-to-let-faith-shine-in-the-public-square

 

 

[bsjkki]

48 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I found it indisputable and it was.

Your opinion is your right. I completely disagree. I plan to vote for President Trump again. I think I might even join some senate or congressional campaigns. You know, I prayed about it and feel this is the right thing to do. I know many others who feel he is saving the country and protecting people of faith and the unborn. Plus, reviving an economy. I like his 'magic wand' for job creation. It seems to be working pretty well. I think this vibrant economy helps people. My niece didn't know who to vote for in the voting booth in 2016 and she prayed and the heartfelt answer she received was to vote for Trump. See, we are all voting our conscience. You can call us names...it's okay. We are a hardened group. 

Romney can cite his faith in a very public way on a very controversial decision. That's okay too. Will the church suffer some consequences. Yes. Will some believe his faith told him how to vote. Yes. I was really angry with him yesterday. Today, not so much. He is just put in the 'not to be trusted' category.' I think deep down his personal beliefs align more with Democrats. That's okay too...I'm now fully aware. I believe the President is innocent and the case was completely bogus, rushed, political and manufactured. So, in my opinion when Romney votes his conscience, I don't get it. When he gets up and states facts that were unsupported by any evidence, I believe him disingenuous and question his motives.  That is my opinion and my right. He can say he prayed about it, but maybe, he is just deluded by animus. Who will ever really know?

Edited February 6, 2020 by bsjkki

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Analytics said:

Nah. Rather than just leaving it there, I'll leave with a quote from the Deseret News editorial board:

Unfortunately, the light of faith continues to be banished from the public square and exiled from community conversations, but faith is a unique and powerful dimension of diversity and should be treated as an integral part of local and national conversations....In a pluralistic nation, the light of hope and the candle of faith are central to strengthening civil society and must be allowed to shine to and from every citizen.

https://www.deseret.com/2019/3/8/20667776/in-our-opinion-rome-temple-is-a-reminder-to-let-faith-shine-in-the-public-square

Which in no way contradicts what I have said. I think that was a fine statement. He could have referenced his religious convictions without bringing hymns, scriptures, and the Church into the mix. We'll have to agree to disagree on that. No comment about the juror?

BTW, would I be allowed to disagree with the Deseret News editorial board? Or has the thinking been done?

We have a former member of the Church News board here, but what he says doesn't seem to count. 

Edited February 7, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

My remarks were accurate, not rude.  In each case, the named characters love the position you are taking.  I don't see why you make a religious issue of political palaver.  Would you make a religious issue of being in favor of a particular sports team?  The Gospel usually has nothing whatever to do with political positions, at least so far as I have been able to tell.  Perhaps they should, but, if so, what would that mean?  Would that change anything that people say?

Sorry, I am not going to dive into the deep end of that pool again, now that I know there is no real water in it. 

[The Nehor]

59 minutes ago, Anijen said:

However, "...people are dumb enough to vote for Trump" is not "hateful vitriol?"  Perhaps it was "designed by the devil himself," so we shouldn't blame anybody, because "its persuasive value is almost nonexistent.? I am pretty sure someone who voted for Trump are neither challenged or enlightened. Thanks for the non-biased opinion.

Quite right, that was unfair. A lot of people fall for shysters peddling MLM schemes, pretending to be African royalty who need to hide money, selling cars, or wanting you to invest in their restaurant or their alpaca farm or whatever. It is not just dumb people who fall for it. I wish to correct “dumb” in that statement to “naive”. I apologize for anyone I offended.

[The Nehor]

47 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Your opinion is your right. I completely disagree. I plan to vote for President Trump again. I think I might even join some senate or congressional campaigns. You know, I prayed about it and feel this is the right thing to do. I know many others who feel he is saving the country and protecting people of faith and the unborn. Plus, reviving an economy. I like his 'magic wand' for job creation. It seems to be working pretty well. I think this vibrant economy helps people. My niece didn't know who to vote for in the voting booth in 2016 and she prayed and the heartfelt answer she received was to vote for Trump. See, we are all voting our conscience. You can call us names...it's okay. We are a hardened group. 

Romney can cite his faith in a very public way on a very controversial decision. That's okay too. Will the church suffer some consequences. Yes. Will some believe his faith told him how to vote. Yes. I was really angry with him yesterday. Today, not so much. He is just put in the 'not to be trusted' category.' I think deep down his personal beliefs align more with Democrats. That's okay too...I'm now fully aware. I believe the President is innocent and the case was completely bogus, rushed, political and manufactured. So, in my opinion when Romney votes his conscience, I don't get it. When he gets up and states facts that were unsupported by any evidence, I believe him disingenuous and question his motives.  That is my opinion and my right. He can say he prayed about it, but maybe, he is just deluded by animus. Who will ever really know?

The sooner we kill the general idea that politicians are responsible for every economic upturn and downturn the better. We could make a potted cactus the president and we would still have upturns and downturns. Good and bad economic policy can help some but the good and usually the bad stuff takes a while to work so generally your successor or their successor or even further down benefits or suffers from your decision. If anyone deserves credit for the way jobs are going it is Bush and (to a lesser extent) Obama.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Did Lee say anything about his decision being formed because of his deep religious faith?

Not in that tweet, he didn’t. I doubt he did anywhere. 

[juliann]

This reminds me of apologetics back when. The attackers were nasty and mean. We responded with some of that, thinking because we were right and smarter (well, we kinda were...)so we didn't have an obligation to be at our best. I'm seeing this play out with Trump haters. When they go low we go high has turned into we will follow. They think they have the moral high ground so it's all cool. Where it was mostly Trump doing the trash talk, there are no holds barred now and trash talk is flying in every direction. It's degrading them all. And it is bewildering to those who don't get agitated by politics. My motto: Pick a position not a party. How can anyone take what is happening seriously when we watch every politician switch sides after the Clinton impeachment?

I have never understood the vitriol towards Trump, although I certainly get why he is objectionable. (No, I didn't vote for him.) The name calling eventually looks like the Exorcist vomit scene. I find the sudden expectation that politicians shouldn't be liars to be hilarious. Name one who isn't when it is convenient. My rule is that if someone can't admit some  positive things about any President, they aren't credible. This is one of the very rare times I've even engaged in political discussions because it is like standing in front of a wood chipper. 

I was firmly in the camp of suck it up and vote him out. It never occured to me that he could win again. Now, I think he will because this is what I have experienced....lots of people who won't say anything out loud but if they think you are a safe listener, they will quietly talk--even whisper-- about how they are going to vote for him. 

As for Romney, I find the nastiness towards him disconcerting. Like...why does it even matter?? Good grief, get a grip. I do wish he hadn't dragged religion into it though. I'm sure there are good people who have also prayed and come up with the opposite opinion. And once you say the case against someone has been solidly and irrefutably proven, why would you need to pray about it?

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

Your opinion is your right. I completely disagree. I plan to vote for President Trump again. I think I might even join some senate or congressional campaigns. You know, I prayed about it and feel this is the right thing to do. I know many others who feel he is saving the country and protecting people of faith and the unborn. Plus, reviving an economy. I like his 'magic wand' for job creation. It seems to be working pretty well. I think this vibrant economy helps people. My niece didn't know who to vote for in the voting booth in 2016 and she prayed and the heartfelt answer she received was to vote for Trump. See, we are all voting our conscience. You can call us names...it's okay. We are a hardened group. 

Romney can cite his faith in a very public way on a very controversial decision. That's okay too. Will the church suffer some consequences. Yes. Will some believe his faith told him how to vote. Yes. I was really angry with him yesterday. Today, not so much. He is just put in the 'not to be trusted' category.' I think deep down his personal beliefs align more with Democrats. That's okay too...I'm now fully aware. I believe the President is innocent and the case was completely bogus, rushed, political and manufactured. So, in my opinion when Romney votes his conscience, I don't get it. When he gets up and states facts that were unsupported by any evidence, I believe him disingenuous and question his motives.  That is my opinion and my right. He can say he prayed about it, but maybe, he is just deluded by animus. Who will ever really know?

He’s a loose cannon. Entitled to his views, surely, but unreliable as an elected leader. 
 

By the way, his action has ruffled feathers here in Utah. A measure is being introduced in the legislature to censure him. Seems the lawmakers believe he has undercut their influence, and they want to make it clear his action doesn’t reflect their views. 
 

Beyond that, the censure would be pretty much without teeth as I understand it. 

[SteveO]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am not pretending to equality either. I am not even opposed to choosing the lesser of two evils. I am opposed to support of someone but when flaws come up and that person defaults to hitting the other side instead of admitting the problem they are not being honest with  themselves.

He is a symptom of a pervasive rot but I am tired of everyone pretending this is business as usual and that this is how it has always been. It is not. We chose this route. We can choose differently. Trump’s biggest base is dying off. Those supporting his tactics are basically handing his opponents a loaded gun. If these tactics can win and demographics continue as they have been can you imagine what an autocratic ideologue with popular support and this much contempt for constitutional separation of powers could do? I would not be more comfortable with a Democrat lamenting that their attorney general will not function as their political attack dog. If someone competent had this level of deference from a cowed Congress it would be downright terrifying. 

I think you need to relax brother...

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Each side is calling the other side evil. What's the point?

I would hope the president would be above all of that and lead this nation instead of divide us, just what those countries that want our demise want. Can you not see that?

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Which in no way contradicts what I have said. I think that was a fine statement. He could have referenced his religious convictions without bringing hymns, scriptures, and the Church into the mix. We'll have to agree to disagree on that. No comment about the juror?

BTW, would I be allowed to disagree with the Deseret News editorial board? Or has the thinking been done?

We have a former member of the Church News board here, but what he says doesn't seem to count. 

That’s true, but I will do what Mitt Romney failed to and make it clear that I don’t speak for the Church or the Church News or the Deseret News. 

[bsjkki]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I would hope the president would be above all of that and lead this nation instead of divide us, just what those countries that want our demise want. Can you not see that?

Can you not see a constant assault requires a defense? Did you you give him a chance to lead? Breaking all norms, Nancy Pelosi ripped up the State of the Union in a planned stunt. He was called a Russian agent. He was impeached without any due process in the House. He is not a politician. 

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, SteveO said:

I think you need to relax brother...

RELAX? I HAVE NEVER BEEN SO CALM BEFORE IN MY LIFE! IF I WERE ANY MORE RELAXED I WOULD PROBABLY BE DEAD!!

I am not nearly as emotionally invested this as you seem to imagine. Now where did I put my Val ium?

[strappinglad]

All of this over a short phone call... or in the past , over a stain on a dress . Kill a few thousand people in drone strikes, no big deal. Increase your net worth by a couple orders of magnitude , forgetaboutit. Start wars that kill thousands of troops and blow a trillion bucks, par for the course . 

I am currently reading a biography of N. Tesla. Fascinating stuff!   It outlines the machinations of Edison and GE and Westinghouse. One quote that struck me . " ..make your money, dishonestly if you can.. honestly if you must  " This was in the 1890s + . The more things change....

[Rajah Manchou]

50 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That’s true, but I will do what Mitt Romney failed to and make it clear that I don’t speak for the Church or the Church News or the Deseret News. 

One can never go wrong with disclaimers

Edited February 7, 2020 by Rajah Manchou

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I would hope the president would be above all of that and lead this nation instead of divide us, just what those countries that want our demise want. Can you not see that?

I see a lot of division being created on many sides. Can you not see that?

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Not in that tweet, he didn’t. I doubt he did anywhere. 

Smart man.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

Can you not see a constant assault requires a defense? Did you you give him a chance to lead? Breaking all norms, Nancy Pelosi ripped up the State of the Union in a planned stunt. He was called a Russian agent. He was impeached without any due process in the House. He is not a politician. 

He needs a chance to lead? He could just, you know, do it. Every President takes flak for poor performance before they start, much of it unfair and despicable. Obama was attacked for having too much melanin, George W was portrayed as a slack-jawed idiot puppet, and Clinton was seen as henpecked and controlled entirely by his wife. It is not just a recent thing either. Lincoln was hated by many in his own party for being a backcountry hick before he even got to Washington.

This is why no one should elect a thin-skinned weenie who compulsively needs to respond to every attack even if it is baseless. He should know. He did the same to a previous president and was humiliated for it.

 

Edited February 7, 2020 by The Nehor

[bsjkki]

32 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

He needs a chance to lead? He could just, you know, do it. Every President takes flak for poor performance before they start, much of it unfair and despicable. Obama was attacked for having too much melanin, George W was portrayed as a slack-jawed idiot puppet, and Clinton was seen as henpecked and controlled entirely by his wife. It is not just a recent thing either. Lincoln was hated by many in his own party for being a backcountry hick before he even got to Washington.

This is why no one should elect a thin-skinned weenie who compulsively needs to respond to every attack even if it is baseless. He should know. He did the same to a previous president and was humiliated for it.

 

Honestly, I think he's done an amazing job and fulfilled many campaign promises in the last 3 years. I don't have a complaint on his 'leadership' skill set. I'm quite happy. But, for those who only hear the bad news and not the accomplishments, you would be in the dark. Nehor, I don't expect you will give him a chance and that's okay. I really did not like our previous President. It's kind of the way it goes.

[Tacenda]

23 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Honestly, I think he's done an amazing job and fulfilled many campaign promises in the last 3 years. I don't have a complaint on his 'leadership' skill set. I'm quite happy. But, for those who only hear the bad news and not the accomplishments, you would be in the dark. Nehor, I don't expect you will give him a chance and that's okay. I really did not like our previous President. It's kind of the way it goes.

I remember the hateful things said about Obama, so I know how you must feel. I felt that way when people would say horrible things about Obama, including racist remarks. I wish these things didn't happen, but it's all in how we all perceive our chosen candidates I guess. And that is what makes American really great. I hope that we can get back to a more civil discourse now..I do understand your views, for sure.

While I supported Obama, it was almost like I had to hide my feelings living here in Utah and being LDS. Years ago, when I was a Republican, I voted for a Democrat because of stem cell research that the candidate would ensure would happen, and I wanted it terribly for my mother that had Alzheimer's, when my sister in law heard who I voted for she was so upset, I guess LDS in her opinion should never vote for a Democrat. So I try to give others the respect that I feel I didn't get. 

Edited February 7, 2020 by Tacenda

[bsjkki]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I remember the hateful things said about Obama, so I know how you must feel, I felt that way when people would say horrible things about Obama, including racist remarks. I wish these things didn't happen, but it's all in how we all perceive our chosen candidates I guess. And that is what makes American really great. I hope that we can get back to more a more civil discourse now..I do understand you having your views for sure. While I supported Obama, it was almost like I had to hide my feelings living here in Utah and being LDS. Years ago, when I was a Republican, I voted a Democrat during an election year because of stem cell research, and I wanted it terribly for my mother that had Alzheimer's, when my sister in law heard who I voted for she was so upset, I guess LDS in her opinion should never vote democrat. So I try to give others the respect that I feel I didn't get. 

[Rajah Manchou]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Breaking all norms, Nancy Pelosi ripped up the State of the Union in a planned stunt. He was called a Russian agent. He was impeached without any due process in the House. He is not a politician. 

The thing I like about Trump is how he breaks down "normal".

This thread, for example. Four years ago it would not have been "normal" for our more conservative posters to agree that Mormon politicians should say nothing publicly about their deep religious faith. It would not have been normal for anybody on this board to defend attacks against Mitt Romney's use of his "religion as a crutch" as Trump has put it.

Likewise, four years ago it would not be normal for Colbert and the liberal media to shower praise on a Mormon Senator for making tough decisions that were guided by his faith in God. Liberal Twitter today is in love with Mitt Romney for standing for something. Imagine that. A whole new world this is.

Broken norms are great because they challenge what we thought we knew about the world. Trump has not only redefined what it means to be conservative, he's also redefined what it means to be liberal.

[Calm]

 

38 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

So I try to give others the respect that I feel I didn't get. 

Which is a wonderful policy we should try to apply in all areas of our lives, imo...give others the respect we desire ourselves. 

[Calm]

 

1 minute ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Broken norms are great because they challenge what we thought we knew about the world. Trump has not only redefined what it means to be conservative, he's also redefined what it means to be liberal.

Now if only people could learn something from it about themselves.