Romney's Decision Process for Vote on Impeachment

[Robert F. Smith]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

................I would have suggested a disclaimer if he had so extensively invoked his faith as he did in this instance. .....................

Mitt's remarks seem pretty tame to me:

Quote

As a Senator-juror, I swore an oath, before God, to exercise “impartial justice.” I am a profoundly religious person. I take an oath before God as enormously consequential.

Why would a disclaimer be necessary?

[Scott Lloyd]

10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

He could easily have made his point simply by citing his reasons for accepting the evidence as convincing and declaring his desire to follow his moral obligations, which he did, without naming hymns and scriptures and bringing the Church into the picture. 

Ya think?

It almost seems like a case of “Methinks the [politician] doth protest too much.”

 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Mitt's remarks seem pretty tame to me:

Why would a disclaimer be necessary?

To preclude the possibility of implying the Church’s endorsement for his position. 
 

If you’re going to quote hymns and cite scripture, you’d better be clear on whether or not you’re speaking for the Church. 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I do understand the difference but I'm just going off what you said so you're confusing me a bit.  

You said that Romney's invocation of his faith in God was what gave the false impression that the church endorses a particular political position, right? 

As a reminder:  I asked "What did he do to embroil the church?" and you replied "Invoking his faith."

The Washington Post had this observation.... 

Quote

Mitt Romney’s Mormon faith motivated him to vote for Trump’s removal from office

As Sen. Mitt Romney (R-Utah) delivered a history-making speech on the Senate floor on Wednesday afternoon, becoming the first U.S. senator to ever vote to remove from office a president of his own party, Romney did not express his greatest emotion when he called the actions of President Trump “grievously wrong.”

He was most emotional when he talked about God.

“As a senator-juror, I swore an oath before God to exercise impartial justice. I am profoundly religious. My faith is at the heart of who I am,” Romney said at the start of his speech. Clearly moved, he paused for several long moments and took a breath before continuing, “I take an oath before God as enormously consequential.”

Romney is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the denomination colloquially known as Mormonism. As he explained his vote, he turned to Mormon tradition.

On Fox News, anchor Chris Wallace said to Romney, “Donald Trump will never forgive you for this.” Romney’s response: “Do what is right. Let the consequence follow.”

Those words come from a hymn that is used in the Mormon Church. Written by an anonymous author in 1857, “Do what is right” exhorts worshipers, “Angels above us are silent notes taking of ev’ry action; then do what is right!”

He told the Atlantic he had his father’s favorite verse from Mormon scripture in mind throughout the deliberative trial process: “Search diligently, pray always, and be believing, and all things shall work together for your good.”

Mormons are traditionally a conservative-leaning group but have been wary of Trump throughout his presidency....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2020/02/05/mitt-romneys-mormon-faith-motivated-him-vote-trumps-removal-office/

Of course, they may have not got it right.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[SteveO]

On 2/5/2020 at 12:56 PM, Kevin Christensen said:

From the essay:

Has the Republican party become a Cult of Personality rather than a set of principles?

And the Democrats are the benevolent ones holding the gate against the barbarians intent on destroying the Republic and turning it into a dictatorship?

Keep in mind what they did to Mitt's integrity in 2012.  At the end of that election, I knew Mitt had a binder full of women, liked to fire people whose wives had cancer, gave a peer a haircut in grade school, and left an animal on top of the vacation car...you know, the real hot button issues of the day.

It's not whataboutism to point out that Democrats have their hands just as dirty as the Republicans.  Fast and Furious should've resulted in someone, somewhere getting fired.  You know that competence and accountability thing that is lacking in today's administration?  If Jeff Sessions had regarded himself as the president's "wing man" as Eric Holder had, we would have been hearing about a dictator in the White House.  The IRS scandal should've resulted in an impeachment if we're holding president's to the same standards.  The Iran deal--you can never convince me that there wasn't something dirty going on there.  Obama saying he'd have more "leniency" after the election to Russia's ambassador.  ON and on and on.  Don't bother with an explanation on why those things were all kosher.  You'll end up sounding like a Trump supporter.  

Point is, I didn't like those things I just mentioned.  But you grow up and realize statecraft has always functioned that way.  You can put a polished politician to sell it to make you feel better that its been going on, and continues to go on, but that's all you're doing, is making yourself feel better about it.  Trump's a jerk and a dope, so there's no way dress the ugly up and make it look pretty.  It's all shady.  It's all dirty.  Why you seem to think (or pretend) one side is free of it is beyond me.

If you tuned the news out, and all the 24/7 outrage (that comes from both sides), you'd find that life is pretty amazing at the moment, and nothing has really changed since 2016 except economic prosperity and opportunity.

Cheers.    

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think you are “whingeing” due to your irrational hatred for Trump. 
 

And your abortion analogy fails, because the Church has very clearly and repeatedly expressed opposition to abortion. Not so on the matter of impeachment. 

That said, if a politician who is a Church member had invoked his faith while expressing his position on abortion as vociferously as Romney has on this issue, I would expect that politician to offer a disclaimer as well. 

I doubt you would have stated a thread about it. I could point out that, as our Catholic friends here have said, our opposition to abortion is not as clear cut as some would like. It is also odd that people vociferously argue here for freedom of religion in political speech but now are handwringing over it hoping they do not think we are a hivemind. Suggesting every official has to offer disclaimers every time they mention God or their faith about how it does not represent the views of their denomination is childish and I am convinced you are hand-wringing over it only in this case because of a hope it would weaken his statement and make all the nasty red-hat wearers not make mean memes about us.

My hate is aimed more at what he represents. Ignorance. Boorishness. Shallowness. Weakness. Pettiness. Self-absorption. Hypocrisy. Babylon worship. That hatred is not irrational. It is actually scriptural.*

*To avoid a derail I would like to make it clear that this thought represents my own views and not the views of the Church I belong to. Who knows? Maybe the church approves of lying unapologetic playboys who make their money unethically? How would I know? Who am I to say?

 

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

The Washington Post had this observation.... 

QED. 
 

Thanks for doing the leg work on this. 

[The Nehor]

16 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Hyperbole much?

I wish it was hyperbole.  
 

I like hyperbole.

Edited February 6, 2020 by The Nehor

[Analytics]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

To preclude the possibility of implying the Church’s endorsement for his position. 

Has the Church issued a press release emphasizing that they don't endorse his position? If not, why not?

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Ya think?

It almost seems like a case of “Methinks the [politician] doth protest too much.”

Methinks you want to police the language of others too much.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

I doubt you would have stated a thread about it. I could point out that, as our Catholic friends here have said, our opposition to abortion is not as clear cut as some would like. It is also odd that people vociferously argue here for freedom of religion in political speech but now are handwringing over it hoping they do not think we are a hivemind. Suggesting every official has to offer disclaimers every time they mention God or their faith about how it does not represent the views of their denomination is childish and I am convinced you are hand-wringing over it only in this case because of a hope it would weaken his statement and make all the nasty red-hat wearers not make mean memes about us.

My hate is aimed more at what he represents. Ignorance. Boorishness. Shallowness. Weakness. Pettiness. Self-absorption. Hypocrisy. Babylon worship. That hatred is not irrational. It is actually scriptural.*

*To avoid a derail I would like to make it clear that this thought represents my own views and not the views of the Church I belong to. Who knows? Maybe the church approves of lying unapologetic playboys who make their money unethically? How would I know? Who am I to say?

 

I may well have started a thread on it. 
 

I don’t like it when people ignore the instruction not to mix the Church up with their personal partisan politics — regardless of political party or ideology. 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Has the Church issued a press release emphasizing that they don't endorse his position? If not, why not?

I don’t speak for the Church. Why are you asking me why they haven’t issued a press release? 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I wish it was hyperbole.  
 

I like hyperbole.

More’s the pity that you don’t recognize it for what it is. 

[Analytics]

I've got to say, seeing so many Mormons wishing that Romney would put his candle under a bushel is really weird.

It is obvious that there are several senators who thought voting to remove Trump was the right thing to do, but they voted to acquit because they didn't want to face the consequences of a wrathful Trump and the members of his cult. Romney did an excellent job of representing his sincere faith and convictions.

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, SteveO said:

And the Democrats are the benevolent ones holding the gate against the barbarians intent on destroying the Republic and turning it into a dictatorship?

Keep in mind what they did to Mitt's integrity in 2012.  At the end of that election, I knew Mitt had a binder full of women, liked to fire people whose wives had cancer, gave a peer a haircut in grade school, and left an animal on top of the vacation car...you know, the real hot button issues of the day.

It's not whataboutism to point out that Democrats have their hands just as dirty as the Republicans.  Fast and Furious should've resulted in someone, somewhere getting fired.  You know that competence and accountability thing that is lacking in today's administration?  If Jeff Sessions had regarded himself as the president's "wing man" as Eric Holder had, we would have been hearing about a dictator in the White House.  The IRS scandal should've resulted in an impeachment if we're holding president's to the same standards.  The Iran deal--you can never convince me that there wasn't something dirty going on there.  Obama saying he'd have more "leniency" after the election to Russia's ambassador.  ON and on and on.  Don't bother with an explanation on why those things were all kosher.  You'll end up sounding like a Trump supporter.  

Point is, I didn't like those things I just mentioned.  But you grow up and realize statecraft has always functioned that way.  You can put a polished politician to sell it to make you feel better that its been going on, and continues to go on, but that's all you're doing, is making yourself feel better about it.  Trump's a jerk and a dope, so there's no way dress the ugly up and make it look pretty.  It's all shady.  It's all dirty.  Why you seem to think (or pretend) one side is free of it is beyond me.

If you tuned the news out, and all the 24/7 outrage (that comes from both sides), you'd find that life is pretty amazing at the moment, and nothing has really changed since 2016 except economic prosperity and opportunity.

Cheers.    

I see you are stuck in a good vs. evil mindset where one has to be good and acceptable. You may want to fix that.

“And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard and the servant went down into the vineyard; and they came to the tree whose natural branches had been broken off, and the wild branches had been grafted in; and behold all sorts of fruit did cumber the tree.

And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard did taste of the fruit, every sort according to its number. And the Lord of the vineyard said: Behold, this long time have we nourished this tree, and I have laid up unto myself against the season much fruit.

But behold, this time it hath brought forth much fruit, and there is none of it which is good. And behold, there are all kinds of bad fruit; and it profiteth me nothing, notwithstanding all our labor; and now it grieveth me that I should lose this tree.”

Arguing about the relative merits of Shiz and Coriantumr is not something the prophet Ether deigns to spend much time on.

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t speak for the Church. Why are you asking me why they haven’t issued a press release? 

Well, you have spent a lot of words being offended on their behalf.

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I may well have started a thread on it. 
 

I don’t like it when people ignore the instruction not to mix the Church up with their personal partisan politics — regardless of political party or ideology. 

As this is coming from someone who on an LDS themed message board is constantly starting threads about and posting about politics (in defiance of the rules) with a clear advocacy for one side this imperious admonition that others shut up about politics because it might give someone the wrong idea seems more than a little farcical.

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

As this is coming from someone who on an LDS themed message board is constantly starting threads about and posting about politics (in defiance of the rules) with a clear advocacy for one side this imperious admonition that others shut up about politics because it might give someone the wrong idea seems more than a little farcical.

I’m not telling you to shut up about politics — just don’t falsely imply the Church’s endorsement when you make your statements. 
 

It’s not a controversial point. The Church reiterates it every election year. 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Analytics]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t speak for the Church. Why are you asking me why they haven’t issued a press release? 

Your fear that somebody might be confused about whether the Church endorses his position seems myopic, weird, and a little paranoid; it is totally unsupported by what Romney actually said. If I'm wrong about that and there actually could be confusion about it, I'd expect the Church and/or Senator Romney to issue a press release and clarify the matter. 

In the Chris Wallace interview, Wallace continued to re-ask the question about why Romney was voting as he did, knowing how he would be severely punished by the president and the base because of it. This illustrates why it was important and valid for Romney to explain why he took the oath seriously.

I would think Mormons would be proud that Romney claimed his faith is the reason he took the oath so seriously. I would guess the only Mormons who have a problem with this are the ones who believe that Trump is God's chosen one and are really upset about a fellow Mormon taking a principled stand against that.

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m not telling you to shut up about politics — just don’t falsely imply the Church’s endorsement when you do it. 
 

It’s not a controversial point. The Church reiterates it every election year. 

Romney did not imply it, falsely or otherwise.

You are trying to make it that way because he used some of our cultural references which is a stupid bar to use.

Edited February 6, 2020 by The Nehor

[Bernard Gui]

15 minutes ago, Analytics said:

I've got to say, seeing so many Mormons wishing that Romney would put his candle under a bushel is really weird.

It is obvious that there are several senators who thought voting to remove Trump was the right thing to do, but they voted to acquit because they didn't want to face the consequences of a wrathful Trump and the members of his cult. Romney did an excellent job of representing his sincere faith and convictions.

And right there we see the problem with playing the "I am deeply religious" card in a political situation. "I am following my conscience and my commitment to God, but everyone who thinks differently is not." Simply make your point, say I feel this is right, and move on. Don't drag the Church into it. That's the problem as I see it.

[SteveO]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I see you are stuck in a good vs. evil mindset where one has to be good and acceptable. You may want to fix that.

“And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard and the servant went down into the vineyard; and they came to the tree whose natural branches had been broken off, and the wild branches had been grafted in; and behold all sorts of fruit did cumber the tree.

And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard did taste of the fruit, every sort according to its number. And the Lord of the vineyard said: Behold, this long time have we nourished this tree, and I have laid up unto myself against the season much fruit.

But behold, this time it hath brought forth much fruit, and there is none of it which is good. And behold, there are all kinds of bad fruit; and it profiteth me nothing, notwithstanding all our labor; and now it grieveth me that I should lose this tree.”

Arguing about the relative merits of Shiz and Coriantumr is not something the prophet Ether deigns to spend much time on.

No...I believe my point is the very one you make here...there isn't a side that is any more moral or benevolent than the other.  I was only expressing my bewilderment at people thinking all the problems are coming from one side.  Trump isn't the sickness in American politics today, just a symptom.  Our politics were sick long before 2016. 

[Bernard Gui]

14 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Your fear that somebody might be confused about whether the Church endorses his position seems myopic, weird, and a little paranoid; it is totally unsupported by what Romney actually said. If I'm wrong about that and there actually could be confusion about it, I'd expect the Church and/or Senator Romney to issue a press release and clarify the matter. 

In the Chris Wallace interview, Wallace continued to re-ask the question about why Romney was voting as he did, knowing how he would be severely punished by the president and the base because of it. This illustrates why it was important and valid for Romney to explain why he took the oath seriously.

I would think Mormons would be proud that Romney claimed his faith is the reason he took the oath so seriously. I would guess the only Mormons who have a problem with this are the ones who believe that Trump is God's chosen one and are really upset about a fellow Mormon taking a principled stand against that.

You have not read the Atlantic and Washington Post articles or Romney's comments on Tuesday? Wallace's continuing pressure could have elicited a disclaimer that the views he was expressing, though religious, were not the views of the Church. Immediately after his reference to the "old hymn we sing in our Church" (Do What is Right) he said, "I know in my heart that I'm doing what's right." What does that mean in the context of his LDS religion? After the interview, Wallace said, "He is a deeply religious man. You cannot overstate the depth of Mitt Romney's faith." I suppose we can disagree on what he meant.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Scott Lloyd]

Interesting tweet yesterday from Mike Lee, the senior senator from Utah. I’ll post it here without further comment:

 

“Congratulations @realDonaldTrump.   I’m looking forward to your next five years in office. Those who voted to remove you were wrong.  Very wrong.”

[Tacenda]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/02/06/us/politics/trump-impeachment.amp.html

Did anyone listen to this? Dems are evil..President Trump says so. 

 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Tacenda