Trump and Mike Lee at March for Life Rally

[bsjkki]

29 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

There is no doubt that Trump's motive in pandering to a group of one-issue voters has more to do with his Impeachment and the upcoming election than for his concern for any life other than his own. 

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Ahhhh....politics. When you do something good it’s still bad. 

[Kevin Christensen]

So if the issue is Life in the broader sense, rather than a one-issue sense, is Trump doing in this area (to cite one of many)?

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/10/24/20927103/air-pollution-study-deaths-elderly-obama-trump

For Trump it's always a matter of what is in it for him, what he can get.  There are lives lost and at risk whose continuance is clearly of no concern to him whatsoever because they are attached to higher taxes for himself and his enablers.   His actions throughout his life and administration always demonstrates the core value, "Am I my brother's keeper?"

Not what is best for Zion.

And there is this bit of advice from the top:

Quote

Nevertheless, when the wicked rule, the people morn.

Wherefore, honest men, and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise, whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil.  (D&C 98:9-10)

Is this an important issue in dealing with our glorious Trumptocracy?  Is he honest and wise?  He claims to have matchless wisdom.  Is he being honest with himself?   When he claimed that "I alone can save you", was he being truthful?  When he said "I have all the best people" (insert mug shots here), was that the truth?  

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[stemelbow]

14 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I don't know where you're getting the idea that God has stopped anyone from being born who would otherwise have been born if their birth had not been stopped.  Where did you get that idea?

That's not my idea.   Every non human caused abortion god could have stopped, theoretically.  That is if he did not cause it.  Of course it could be argued god caused abortions that humans chose to, as the humans who decided it felt notice from god to do it, in their prayers.  

[Scott Lloyd]

39 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Ahhhh....politics. When you do something good it’s still bad. 

If gaining votes and popularity were the president’s sole or even his prime intent, I should think there would be surer and safer ways to do that than by speaking at the March for Life rally, which stands to alienate at least as many potential voters as it pleases. 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

13 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

So if the issue is Life in the broader sense, rather than a one-issue sense, is Trump doing in this area (to cite one of many)?

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/10/24/20927103/air-pollution-study-deaths-elderly-obama-trump

For Trump it's always a matter of what is in it for him, what he can get.  There are lives lost and at risk whose continuance is clearly of no concern to him whatsoever because they are attached to higher taxes for himself and his enablers.   His actions throughout his life and administration always demonstrates the core value, "Am I my brother's keeper?"

Not what is best for Zion.

And there is this bit of advice from the top:

Is this an important issue in dealing with our glorious Trumptocracy?  Is he honest and wise?  He claims to have matchless wisdom.  Is he being honest with himself?   When he claimed that "I alone can save you", was he being truthful?  When he said "I have all the best people" (insert mug shots here), was that the truth?  

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Do you accept at least in theory that a politician could have impeccable personal morality yet not be very wise or competent at governing? 

[Bob Crockett]

What Republican has introduced legislation for a constitutional. Amendment to reverse Roe v Wade. 

How about for a flag burning amendment. 

Hypocrites.  Abortion is race war. 

Best for the Church to continually condemn it as gross sin and excommunicate doctors who perform them.  Can't stop sin but they can be shown the door.  Women too but that is harsh. 

[Bob Crockett]

20 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

 

Is this an important issue in dealing with our glorious Trumptocracy?  Is he honest and wise?  He claims to have matchless wisdom.  Is he being honest with himself?   When he claimed that "I alone can save you", was he being truthful?  When he said "I have all the best people" (insert mug shots here), was that the truth? 

Pitch perfect bro.  And I am a Republican. The Deseret News had it right. But too many of my Mormon friends call evil good. 

[JAHS]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Is Mike Lee and the LDS church going to take the next logical step and push for banning abortion in the case of rape and incest? The life created from rape or incest is still a life and has done nothing wrong to deserve to be aborted. If people are going to protest and argue that an unborn fetus is a life (pro-life rallies!) then they need to extend that to all unborn fetuses. I find the LDS position here illogical. If the response is that carrying the child of a rapist would cause great trauma to a woman than we are admitting that the woman's emotion/psychological health is of greater importance than that of the life of a child. This is conceding a pro-choice premise but only changing where the line is drawn. If, in the case of incest, the argument is given that the child has a greater chance of deformity, then we would have to allow abortion in the cases of down syndrome and the like.

Why does the LDS church hold the position that aborting children is ok in these instances?

Of course some of this has to do with when the spirit enters the body to create a soul.  If the spirit enters the body at birth, is it possible that the spirit of an aborted baby could simply be put into another body instead?  If so there is no worry about birth defects in the case of incest and no worries about whether the mother is willing to care for and raise or have to put up for adoption, a child that was a result of rape. The spirit of the child can simply live on in another body.  A lot of unknowns about this however,  and a lot of hard questions.  Women who do become pregnant by incest or rape always have the choice to keep the baby if they want. The Church states that abortion is a sin that can be forgiven, in other words it is not considered murder.

Edited to add: In Latter-day Saint beliefs any child that dies before the age of 8 automatically receives salvation in the Celestial Kingdom.

Edited January 24, 2020 by JAHS

[Bob Crockett]

Because a terrible sin can be forgiven does not mean it is not a sin. 

[Ahab]

24 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

That's not my idea.   Every non human caused abortion god could have stopped, theoretically.  That is if he did not cause it.  Of course it could be argued god caused abortions that humans chose to, as the humans who decided it felt notice from god to do it, in their prayers.  

That idea doesn't make any sense to me.  Maybe because of  my own idea about how things work, but still I don't see the sense in what you are saying based on how I know things work.  Maybe you can step in to explain more after I explain how I know things work:

A man and woman create a child together by a man joining together with a woman and the woman thus becoming impregnated.  I do realize the spirit of their child will come from heaven with God at some point but if the woman gets pregnant then she is going to give birth to a child unless somehow it is stopped.

Now why are you suggesting that God would stop a woman from giving birth to a child that is in her womb?   ... a child that will be born unless somehow that process is stopped.  What makes you think God would ever stop that process?

I know of no instance when God has stopped a woman from giving birth to a child she would otherwise have given birth to if her pregnancy had not somehow been stopped.  Hence, God does not abort children, to my knowledge.  What makes you think he does, or would?

 

[MiserereNobis]

8 minutes ago, JAHS said:

The Church states that abortion is a sin that can be forgiven, in other words it is not considered murder.

This is interesting. If I understand correctly, are you saying murder cannot be forgiven?

8 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Edited to add: In Latter-day Saint beliefs any child that dies before the age of 8 automatically receives salvation in the Celestial Kingdom.

I've heard this before and it made me wonder... does the child who dies before 8 miss out anything from an eternal perspective? If not, then isn't it better to not live past 8? You get all the blessings and rewards without much of the pain, trials, slings and arrows.

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, Ahab said:

That idea doesn't make any sense to me.  Maybe because of  my own idea about how things work, but still I don't see the sense in what you are saying based on how I know things work.  Maybe you can step in to explain more after I explain how I know things work:

A man and woman create a child together by a man joining together with a woman and the woman thus becoming impregnated.  I do realize the spirit of their child will come from heaven with God at some point but if the woman gets pregnant then she is going to give birth to a child unless somehow it is stopped.

Now why are you suggesting that God would stop a woman from giving birth to a child that is in her womb?   ... a child that will be born unless somehow that process is stopped.  What makes you think God would ever stop that process?

Are you asking me to divulge unto you the mind of an unknown God?  I don't know why God seeks to kill fetus'.  I don't know why God inspires people to decide to abort a fetus, as they pray to Him for help and guidance.  

3 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I know of no instance when God has stopped a woman from giving birth to a child she would otherwise have given birth to if her pregnancy had not somehow been stopped.  Hence, God does not abort children, to my knowledge.  What makes you think he does, or would?

 

So if God doesn't stop a birth that makes Him innocent of all those abortions He caused?  hmm....I'm not sure that works very well.  I"m curious, do you think if God did stop an abortion, at some point, that means he could stop another?  Do you think God could stop all abortions?  

[bsjkki]

So is a “good” person who does bad things better than a “bad” person that does good things? 

What about when people do ‘good’ things but end up with bad results or vice versa. (This board has discussed the difficulties with how we give humanitarian aid.)

One reason given for higher pollution deaths is greater economic activity. More construction, more fuel use, more natural gas burned. Is it better to be in a recession? 

[Scott Lloyd]

13 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Pitch perfect bro.  And I am a Republican. The Deseret News had it right. But too many of my Mormon friends call evil good. 

Since Kevin has not responded, I’ll pose the same question to you: Do you accept, at least in theory, that a politician could have acceptable personal morality yet not be very wise or competent at governing? 

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I've heard this before and it made me wonder... does the child who dies before 8 miss out anything from an eternal perspective? If not, then isn't it better to not live past 8? You get all the blessings and rewards without much of the pain, trials, slings and arrows.

Since we lack the essential knowledge to judge, we leave it up to a wise and just God to determine what is the best course for each individual. Then we do the best we can to trust in Him, follow His commandments and facilitate the salvation of each soul. 

[JAHS]

10 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

This is interesting. If I understand correctly, are you saying murder cannot be forgiven?

"And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come." (D&C 42: 18)

Notice however that God is speaking to the Church. Those who have not joined God's kingdom on earth might be forgiven for murder. This is for God to judge however.
President Spencer W. Kimball said:
"Perhaps one reason murder is unforgivable is that having taken a life, the murderer cannot restore it. Restitution in full is not possible.  (October 1980)

10 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I've heard this before and it made me wonder... does the child who dies before 8 miss out anything from an eternal perspective? If not, then isn't it better to not live past 8? You get all the blessings and rewards without much of the pain, trials, slings and arrows.

The child will be resurrected and during the millennium will be raised by the parents, but will not be tested in the same way others are. 

President Joseph F. Smith said:
"The body will come forth as it is laid to rest, for there is no growth nor development in the grave. As it is laid down, so will it arise, and changes to perfection will come by the law of restitution. But the spirit will continue to expand and develop, and the body, after the resurrection will develop to the full stature of man" (Joseph F. Smith, IE 7 [June 1904]:623-24).

"Satan cannot tempt little children in this life, nor in the spirit world, nor after their resurrection. Little children who die before reaching the years of accountability will not be tempted; those born during the millennium, when Satan is bound and cannot tempt them, "shall grow up without sin unto salvation."(D&C 45:58)

These children will never be tempted because, for some reason that only God knows, they don't need it for their salvation; they only need a body. We need to rest secure in the knowledge that God knows what is best for each of us, be we child or adult, and that He will bring to pass those conditions that will maximize our growth and further our opportunities for exaltation.

Joseph Fielding Smith also said:
"We must assume that the Lord knows and arranges beforehand who shall be taken in infancy and who shall remain on earth to undergo whatever tests are needed in their cases." (Joseph Fielding Smith" The Salvation of Little Children," Ensign, April 1977, p. 6.)

Joseph Smith said:
"The Lord takes many away even in infancy, that they may escape the envy of man, and the sorrows and evils of this present world; they were too pure, too lovely, to live on earth; therefore, if rightly considered, instead of mourning we have reason to rejoice as they are delivered from evil, and we shall soon have them again. " (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 196-197)

 

 

[Judd]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

The number of abortions performed by humans pails in comparison to the number of abortions caused by God.  If they were really going to take this seriously, they should be demonstrating against God.  

Let me clarify, if God can stop a fetus from being terminated, and he hasn't, then he has rejected the sanctity of life that pro-lifers proclaim as reason for no abortions.  If God has stopped one abortion, then why not others?  Or if God is the cause of natural disasters, as in the Noah story where He uses them to murder and maim, then it would stand to reason he is the cause of all abortions. 

The number of traumatic deaths caused by murder pails in comparison to the number of traumatic deaths caused by God.

[CA Steve]

7 minutes ago, Judd said:

The number of traumatic deaths caused by murder pails in comparison to the number of traumatic deaths caused by God.

Who knew buckets were so dangerous.

[Ahab]

50 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Are you asking me to divulge unto you the mind of an unknown God?  I don't know why God seeks to kill fetus'.  I don't know why God inspires people to decide to abort a fetus, as they pray to Him for help and guidance.  

You don't even know that he does. You just seem to believe he does, for some reason  you have not divulged.

 

50 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

So if God doesn't stop a birth that makes Him innocent of all those abortions He caused?  hmm....I'm not sure that works very well.  I"m curious, do you think if God did stop an abortion, at some point, that means he could stop another?  Do you think God could stop all abortions?  

The way to stop abortions is for people to stop choosing to abort their babies in the first place.  Very easy for God who doesn't cause any abortions.  Birth happens naturally unless people choose to abort when they get pregnant.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

Okay, that helps to explain that particular use of the term, but I think the term can be used for other purposes, too, while keeping the meaning of the individual words in mind.  When I use the term "begs the question" I generally mean that what someone has said has inspired me to want to ask a question. I don't agree that with the idea that there is only one correct way to use a figure of speech or of the words that are used in that figure of speech.  You can know what the word begging generally refers to and you can also know what the word question generally refers to, so just latch onto that instead of feeling like I should use words the same way that you do.

And by the way, in regard to pet peeves, I don't like having any pets, since pets usually require me to take care of them more than they take care of me.  I like the animals okay, but usually I prefer to just let them roam wild instead of caging them up or fencing them in or making them dependent on me instead of them taking care of themselves.

Ahab: I prefer just to let my pet aardvark roam free. 

Questioner: Why do you call your dog an aardvark?

Ahab: Because I use language differently than you do. 

[stemelbow]

2 hours ago, Judd said:

The number of traumatic deaths caused by murder pails in comparison to the number of traumatic deaths caused by God.

I mean oops

Edited January 25, 2020 by stemelbow

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

You don't even know that he does. You just seem to believe he does, for some reason  you have not divulged.

I dont know there's a god at all.  I'm suggesting if there is a god, then reason dictates more abortions are on his hands than all of humanity combined.

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

The way to stop abortions is for people to stop choosing to abort their babies in the first place.  Very easy for God who doesn't cause any abortions.  Birth happens naturally unless people choose to abort when they get pregnant.

If humans stopped doing abortions there still be many.million of abortions happening.  If god then hes killing a lot of fetus.  Why do you refuse to answer questions?  

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Judd said:

The number of traumatic deaths caused by murder pails in comparison to the number of traumatic deaths caused by God.

The  difference is God has authority over life and death, a right he earned in righteousness.

Mortal man has no right to end any life unless strictly within God's guidelines.  Life is not ours to control.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, JAHS said:

"And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come." (D&C 42: 18)

IF abortion is considered murder by God and his laws (regardless what man thinks or the law says) this should terrify anyone who ever performed, participated in, or condoned abortion.

We can debate the issue of abortion till we're blue in the face but if we're on the wrong side, it's an unforgivable sin. 

Worth the risk? (I know, Pascal's wager, but worse I think).

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I choose to give him the benefit of the doubt if there be any. In any case, the nation’s chief executive has now formally endorsed this event, a benefit it has never before enjoyed. I find that impressive. 

That is very fair-minded. Let me know when you find any doubt and I will honor that sentiment.