JLHPROF Posted January 19, 2020 Posted January 19, 2020 (edited) 33 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Elements in every culture throughout time. Edited January 19, 2020 by JLHPROF 1
mfbukowski Posted January 19, 2020 Posted January 19, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Elements in every culture throughout time. And these "decorative elements" above the doors can be found in many LDS temples. I have maintained for years that Zorastrianism in its varieties is an apostate form derived from one "genuine" dispensation or other. Edited January 19, 2020 by mfbukowski 2
Popular Post The Nehor Posted January 19, 2020 Popular Post Posted January 19, 2020 On 1/17/2020 at 5:56 PM, JLHPROF said: Amazes me how some know and some don't despite going through the same experience. And then the calls for references come...a improbable request on the endowment since the Church has never publicly explained any of these things. There's literally no acceptable Church reference for the meaning of any part of the endowment beyond the vaguest allusions. Yet the meanings remain, for those who know them and pass them down. That's not speculation, that's oral history. Oral history is prejudiced towards those who associate with people who have the oral history. Is it possible that there are some teachings that just are not meant to be passed from person to person? If we need mortal explanations to understand the temple we might as well toss the entire concept of revelation away. 90% of what I know about the temple was taught by revelation. The other 10% I got from well-meaning people trying to explain things is probably getting in the way of me knowing more. 6
JLHPROF Posted January 19, 2020 Posted January 19, 2020 23 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: And ancient China
JLHPROF Posted January 19, 2020 Posted January 19, 2020 4 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Oral history is prejudiced towards those who associate with people who have the oral history. Is it possible that there are some teachings that just are not meant to be passed from person to person? If we need mortal explanations to understand the temple we might as well toss the entire concept of revelation away. 90% of what I know about the temple was taught by revelation. The other 10% I got from well-meaning people trying to explain things is probably getting in the way of me knowing more. I agree completely. I still have much to learn. But I have never seen a more consistent, more neatly packaged, and logical explanation of the entire gospel plan than is found in the endowment and the temple. It's literally the progression of an entire creation from the beginning up to exaltation among the Gods. And it's NOT all symbolic and for the next life. Any time anyone suggests it's just Joseph's plagiarism of Masonry I can't but laugh. The complexity of the endowment makes masonry look like kids playing at being adults. 3
mfbukowski Posted January 19, 2020 Posted January 19, 2020 8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: And ancient China Yes and all the spiral staircases. I had a temple worker tell me that it is all the "double helix" of DNA. That's oral tradition for you! (I would not say it is an error though- it is what you see it as if so inspired. God gives us messages but rarely through your uncle Jerry) 1
JLHPROF Posted January 19, 2020 Posted January 19, 2020 3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Yes and all the spiral staircases. I had a temple worker tell me that it is all the "double helix" of DNA. That's oral tradition for you! (I would not say it is an error though- it is what you see it as if so inspired. God gives us messages but rarely through your uncle Jerry) The endowment wasn't written fully for its first 30 years. Imagine all the revelation, inspiration, sacred meetings and prophetic teachings over those decades. And nothing in the oral traditions I've been given contradict anything in scripture or Church teachings. But sadly things are often discarded when their value is no longer recognized.
mfbukowski Posted January 19, 2020 Posted January 19, 2020 6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I agree completely. I still have much to learn. But I have never seen a more consistent, more neatly packaged, and logical explanation of the entire gospel plan than is found in the endowment and the temple. It's literally the progression of an entire creation from the beginning up to exaltation among the Gods. And it's NOT all symbolic and for the next life. Any time anyone suggests it's just Joseph's plagiarism of Masonry I can't but laugh. The complexity of the endowment makes masonry look like kids playing at being adults. Totally agreed, but I also agree with Calm about oral traditions- which is of course what we are sharing right here, as long as we can, tick, tick tick..... I have had the privilege of administering temple ordinances to people receiving their own endowments and have been specifically trained NOT to interfere with what may come to them by the Spirit. We had one brother on the team who had been there for years and years (20+) who would give a small "lecture" of his own creation before administering the preliminary washings and annointings and was ...... "strongly discouraged" from doing so by the temple president, and those on the team received their own verification personally from the president about that. And then after the endowment, in the Celestial room you inevitably see someone with the "newbie" saying "Now the meaning of THAT was......" and all I can do is cringe. In the endowment we are re-born into the spiritual world for us to find our own way through the spirit. Please don't let others spoil that experience for you by telling you what might have been God's message for THEM, not you. And bragging to others that you know what they cannot know until THEY receive the secret "true" interpretation is just.... not good. "You are better than that". 4
Calm Posted January 19, 2020 Posted January 19, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: also agree with Calm about oral traditions- Probably Nehor...think this may be my first post in the thread. Edited January 19, 2020 by Calm
JLHPROF Posted January 19, 2020 Posted January 19, 2020 4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: And bragging to others that you know what they cannot know until THEY receive the secret "true" interpretation is just.... not good. "You are better than that". I think the fear is that knowledge by revelation will be lost. I have understandings concerning elements of the endowment that have been removed. My children will never have the chance to receive the same understanding because they will never experience those elements. That actually breaks my heart a little. 15 years from now the tie will be a memory of old men, dying members of the Church. The meaning lost to time and the new generation thinking nothing is gone. We've already seen this in our lifetime. Most adult members of the Church today have no idea what was removed in 1990. The significance and doctrinal meaning already disappearing. Makes me want to weep. 2
Popular Post Calm Posted January 19, 2020 Popular Post Posted January 19, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Makes me want to weep. If such things bothered me, I would be more inclined to weep over my great aunt’s inability to get her endowment herself though she was a faithful member for all her 80 plus years because she didn’t go on a mission or get married or the certainty of my grandparents about the meaning of the Curse because their oral and written tradition was so biased to one version. Each generation can receive revelation that will enlighten them to the path of salvation as they need to be, revelation need never be lost as the source is always there even if he may choose to teach the same principles in a variety of ways. I would be bothered by changes in symbols if meanings/teachings were only able to be understood through one symbol ever. Thankfully that is not how symbolism works. Look at all the myriad of names of the Christ for one example. I feel a loss when an old building is destroyed or a beautiful forest is burnt. But the earth and man renews and rebuilds and replants as does the Lord. Nothing is ever really lost forever...at least not if one seeks God. Symbols having life cycles like the people who create and use them...seems natural and right to me. Edited January 19, 2020 by Calm 7
Tacenda Posted January 19, 2020 Posted January 19, 2020 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: But the context here is entirely different. In the other examples on this thread the contexts are the same/ highly similar to ours. It's "transubstantiation". Same appearance totally different substance/meaning. And the five points? Yes possibly great symbolism BUT totally inappropriate for sisters and brothers, which led to abuses. I won't say more. Is that why they discontinued this in the temple? I was sure glad because it was too close for my comfort.
mfbukowski Posted January 19, 2020 Posted January 19, 2020 12 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I think the fear is that knowledge by revelation will be lost. I have understandings concerning elements of the endowment that have been removed. My children will never have the chance to receive the same understanding because they will never experience those elements. That actually breaks my heart a little. 15 years from now the tie will be a memory of old men, dying members of the Church. The meaning lost to time and the new generation thinking nothing is gone. We've already seen this in our lifetime. Most adult members of the Church today have no idea what was removed in 1990. The significance and doctrinal meaning already disappearing. Makes me want to weep. Yes I understand completely, and I feel the same my brother! I still repeat mentally what was removed in 1990- I can't help it. Even if I try, as I say the more recent part, my mind repeats the rest that was removed while my mind makes gestures. But it is a PRESENTATION no matter much is lost. It is our age. No one reads books- they watch youtube and get the idiots version in 7 minutes rather than the view from every perspective in several hours. The presentation is not the blessings. I have to keep telling myself that. But the changes in the veil I think will be a step forward in making at least some of the symbolism clear as a bell. When you start thinking about how the marks relate to the tokens and signs, hopefully that will key more prayer and investigation. Have you found a coherent explanation that the Lord has verified? The problem is the present presentation does not invite the mysteries and does not invite further investigation, thought and prayer as well as the others. Perhaps it would though if I was endowed today. That cannot be. I do not have a time machine and besides I do not want to lose what I already know! It's taken me 50 years to get the little I have! It would be interesting to hear from some recently endowed for the first time to see how they feel about it. Do you WANT to investigate the spiritual symbolism ? Do you pray to know why things are done THIS way and not some other way? What the tokens mean and how they relate to the context and the signs? 2
mfbukowski Posted January 19, 2020 Posted January 19, 2020 6 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Is that why they discontinued this in the temple? I was sure glad because it was too close for my comfort. I do not think I knew a sister who was totally comfortable with it. Even now we brothers are trained about being cautious in this regard.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 19, 2020 Posted January 19, 2020 4 hours ago, katherine the great said: Except the women were all missing. Actually, there have been numerous women performing official duties in temples worldwide, and in holy regalia, since the beginnings of recorded history. Some of them even ran the temples, as in the case of Enheduanna, High Priestess of Inanna and of Nanna at Ur in the 23rd century BC. She was the first named author known to humankind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enheduanna . 1
JLHPROF Posted January 19, 2020 Posted January 19, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Yes I understand completely, and I feel the same my brother! I still repeat mentally what was removed in 1990- I can't help it. Even if I try, as I say the more recent part, my mind repeats the rest that was removed while my mind makes gestures. But it is a PRESENTATION no matter much is lost. It is our age. No one reads books- they watch youtube and get the idiots version in 7 minutes rather than the view from every perspective in several hours. The presentation is not the blessings. I have to keep telling myself that. But the changes in the veil I think will be a step forward in making at least some of the symbolism clear as a bell. When you start thinking about how the marks relate to the tokens and signs, hopefully that will key more prayer and investigation. Have you found a coherent explanation that the Lord has verified? The problem is the present presentation does not invite the mysteries and does not invite further investigation, thought and prayer as well as the others. Perhaps it would though if I was endowed today. That cannot be. I do not have a time machine and besides I do not want to lose what I already know! It's taken me 50 years to get the little I have! It would be interesting to hear from some recently endowed for the first time to see how they feel about it. Do you WANT to investigate the spiritual symbolism ? Do you pray to know why things are done THIS way and not some other way? What the tokens mean and how they relate to the context and the signs? Perfect expression of my thoughts and feelings on the matter. Especially the bolded parts.😊 And perhaps maybe, just maybe, the first bolded part is why you seem to have real insights on the temple. Edited January 19, 2020 by JLHPROF 1
mfbukowski Posted January 19, 2020 Posted January 19, 2020 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: But I have never seen a more consistent, more neatly packaged, and logical explanation of the entire gospel plan than is found in the endowment and the temple. THAT is the miracle. And remember I am a guy who likes to get exact and precise wording, trained in philosophy etc. I cannot image a better presentation of the entire gospel and even the precision of the symbols in such a short time. It is completely clear to me that its origin is divine- no human could do that. It is like the mysteries in the BOM, about how Joseph was able to keep the story lines logical, small details consistent from the beginning to the end while dictating it all through a hat over his face in total darkness. Impossible except for divine intervention, say what you will. Historicity? Who cares? The miracle in both these artifacts of the restoration is the simple fact that they exist at all. 2
mfbukowski Posted January 19, 2020 Posted January 19, 2020 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Perfect expression of my thoughts and feelings on the matter. Especially the bolded parts.😊 Those are so key! It becomes a celestial kind of semaphore code linking and explaining the full gospel. Truly amazing how it all fits together.
Stargazer Posted January 19, 2020 Posted January 19, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Even if I try, as I say the more recent part, my mind repeats the rest that was removed while my mind makes gestures. Happens to me, too. The thing about those gestures is that when I was first endowed in 1972, I didn't understand it much beyond the obvious fact that you would risk losing your life rather than revealing that which you were to keep sacred. Of course some critics would turn it around to say that it actually meant if you broke that promise the Danites (or someone) would come get you. I understood it in the terms of that ancient childhood promise "cross my heart and hope to die" that we as children would use to reassure our playmates that we would do or avoid doing whatever it was we were promising. It was not until very recently that I found out that in olden times it was common for people to take oaths in similar format! For example, in 1093 William de Braose, 1st Lord of Bramber (his castle is visible from my backyard) forced his son and heir Phillip, to take a public oath to grant certain de Braose lands in Normandy to the Benedictine priory of a particular church in his home town, Briouze in Normandy. Philip didn't want to do this, but just before the dedicatory mass was celebrated his father borrowed a dagger from a monk standing nearby, and placing the dagger on the altar, and their hands on the dagger, William and Philip, along with William's nephew, swore an oath to see that the grant was carried out. This was apparently a form of oath-taking, to "swear upon a knife". What it indicated was an elevation of a simple oath or promise to an oath with a sharp edge -- of greater than usual seriousness. Which was what those gestures were intended to convey! Edited January 19, 2020 by Stargazer fix a word 3
ERMD Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 On 1/17/2020 at 10:07 PM, mfbukowski said: So much for the Mortar Board and tassel and switching sides, well known Masonic traditions I guess we no longer graduate to the Celestial Kingdom. As Nibley is reported to have said at a BYU commencement, "We are gathered here today, clothed in the robes of a false priesthood." 😄😄 1
ERMD Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 22 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Those are so key! It becomes a celestial kind of semaphore code linking and explaining the full gospel. Truly amazing how it all fits together. Putting them all together in the prayer circle is...enlightening. 2
Rain Posted January 24, 2020 Posted January 24, 2020 (edited) On 1/18/2020 at 9:12 PM, mfbukowski said: Yes I understand completely, and I feel the same my brother! I still repeat mentally what was removed in 1990- I can't help it. Even if I try, as I say the more recent part, my mind repeats the rest that was removed while my mind makes gestures. But it is a PRESENTATION no matter much is lost. It is our age. No one reads books- they watch youtube and get the idiots version in 7 minutes rather than the view from every perspective in several hours. The presentation is not the blessings. I have to keep telling myself that. But the changes in the veil I think will be a step forward in making at least some of the symbolism clear as a bell. When you start thinking about how the marks relate to the tokens and signs, hopefully that will key more prayer and investigation. Have you found a coherent explanation that the Lord has verified? The problem is the present presentation does not invite the mysteries and does not invite further investigation, thought and prayer as well as the others. Perhaps it would though if I was endowed today. That cannot be. I do not have a time machine and besides I do not want to lose what I already know! It's taken me 50 years to get the little I have! It would be interesting to hear from some recently endowed for the first time to see how they feel about it. Do you WANT to investigate the spiritual symbolism ? Do you pray to know why things are done THIS way and not some other way? What the tokens mean and how they relate to the context and the signs? Like calm said, the Lord is perfectly capable of sharing those same things with those who are going through today. I trust Him on that. MANY of the younger generation read. And so many of them have a much greater number of books to read and discuss because of the internet, ebooks etc. It's really cool to hear of them reading. You may just think that so many don't read, but watch youtube, but there were MANY people in your generation and mine that didn't read either. They are the ones more likely to be only doing youtube. But even with that there is an awful lot of of very good stuff on youtube today - even the church recognizes that it is another method to teach and learn. My daughter went through before this last change, but not too long before. She does want to investigate the symbolism. She does pray about those things. She sincerely studies them. From everything I have seen from her she has not lost one thing, but she has been able to have much deeper experiences than I was able to to have going in before 1990. I get it. You miss it and I'm sorry you miss it, but from my experience those going through today don't get any less. They just get it in a different way. Edited January 24, 2020 by Rain 2
mfbukowski Posted January 24, 2020 Posted January 24, 2020 On 1/19/2020 at 7:07 PM, ERMD said: Putting them all together in the prayer circle is...enlightening. Well it's the progression which symbolizes.... progression. One builds on and adds to the others like the A, B, C's which 26 squiggles later ends up expressing all truths that are or could be. Without linguistic symbols, there can be no knowledge. The real is just too big and complex to capture 1
JLHPROF Posted January 24, 2020 Posted January 24, 2020 2 hours ago, Rain said: Like calm said, the Lord is perfectly capable of sharing those same things with those who are going through today. I trust Him on that. MANY of the younger generation read. And so many of them have a much greater number of books to read and discuss because of the internet, ebooks etc. It's really cool to hear of them reading. You may just think that so many don't read, but watch youtube, but there were MANY people in your generation and mine that didn't read either. They are the ones more likely to be only doing youtube. But even with that there is an awful lot of of very good stuff on youtube today - even the church recognizes that it is another method to teach and learn. My daughter wen through before this last change, but not too long before. She does want to investigate the symbolism. She does pray about those things. She sincerely studies them. From everything I have seen from her she has not lost one thing, but she has been able to have much deeper experiences than I was able to to have going in before 1990. I get it. You miss it and I'm sorry you miss it, but from my experience those going through today don't get any less. They just get it in a different way. It's hard to investigate the symbolism of something that's been removed and you don't know exists. But I applaud your daughter's desire to seek further light and knowledge.
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