'Damned' Vs 'Dammed'- Anyone Have a Dictionary?

[mfbukowski]

39 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I simply disagree that the LDS is God's only church and that only LDS priesthood holders can administer ordinances.

Fine. 

Then go into an LDS temple and perform some initiatories on some patrons.

Obviously you don't believe in the efficacy of the ordinances which are only performed by the LDS Church.

Obviously you don't know what they're for or how even to administer them.

What you are saying is that there is no need for LDS ordinances.

And that is why you are not LDS and do not understand how this works.

I mean you absolutely no disrespect and I hope you know that by now.

But it seems simple logic to me that only LDS priesthood holders who know how to do the ordinances, and believe in their efficacy, can administer those ordinances, if nothing else because of their beliefs in them and their training.

It's a tautology. You don't believe because you don't believe.

And that is what separates you from the rest of your ward. Their entire understanding of how the world works is different than yours.

When they get a chance to go to the temple to which Temple do the members go? They would be in an assigned Temple District.  Is it far? Do they take buses or carpool or how do they get there?

The answers to those questions may seem trivial but they would indicate your degree of separation from them and those aspects of their lives.

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by mfbukowski

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

First Corinthians what? 45?

The bodies are as different as the glory of the sun and moon and stars. They are different bodies.

Bodies terrestrial, bodies celestial.

Yes, and each of us will be in one of those bodies.  How else could Paul have said it to be more clear to you? Could he have been more clear to you?  Wouldn't it be nice if everyone was as clear as you would like them to be?

As I told you before, God doesn't seem to be very concerned at making things totally clear to us.  It's as if he wants us to work hard at it, thinking a lot and praying a lot, before we get to the point where we totally understand what the heck he is saying, through prophets.

As if he wants us to check with him about what those people meant when they said something.

I guess we'll see who is right about this. Maybe our level of intelligence will cause our bodies to shine at a level that corresponds to how intelligent we will be or how much intelligence we have received. I'm going to do whatever I can to be as bright as I can be.

[mfbukowski]

31 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I didn't realize until today that our doctrine (at least as it was taught by Joseph F. Smith--if i'm remembering which Smith it was correctly--teaches that none of the ordinances, including baptism, is necessary to receive the lesser degrees of glory.  

Baptism is only necessary to receive the Celestial kingdom. 

News to me!

Good and interesting point.

Now let's put ourselves in the position of someone who is born in China in 6000 BC. He has been in spirit prison now for eight thousand years approximately!

The missionaries have tried but he just doesn't get all this stuff about some Jewish guy being God. He's going to stick with worshipping XYZ.

We know it is said that after the second coming "every knee shall bow."

Every spirit that has ever existed will see Christ in his full Glory, at the second coming.

He did not see XYZ, he saw Christ.

Were I in that position, and I am a stubborn person, I can imagine my knees instantly bending!!

I would surrender any other belief instantly on the spot!

You have seen Christ in his glory as bright as the sun, and you still deny baptism?

Is that possibly where some of the sons of Perdition will come from? Those who still deny ?

So yes I agree with your great point that baptism is only necessary for Celestial progression. But on the other hand I think the celestial Kingdom will be a lot more crowded than we think! 

Edited January 17, 2020 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

18 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I'm going to do whatever I can to be as bright as I can be.

Now THAT I agree with!

[Sunslight]

54 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It is who is considered to be righteous and who is considered to be wicked that we are discussing.  You seem to be saying (and I apologize if i'm misunderstanding you) that only the sons of perdition are considered to be wicked; everyone else is righteous.  I disagree.  

In the Guide to the Scriptures it outlines that only those who are "just, holy, virtuous, upright; acting in obedience to God’s commands; avoiding sin" are considered righteous.  Likewise, in the Guide to the Scriptures, eternal life is defined as living with God in eternal families.  Those who receive the terrestial and telestial kingdoms do not have eternal life according to our doctrine.  They are saved from hell, but they are not joint heirs with Christ.  They are denied (or rather, they have chosen not to partake of) certain blessings, progressing to become as God is through the Atonement of Christ being one of them.

I will quote the surrounding scriptures I posted and give you my commentary on them. I do this because I am inquiring from you if they, or my interpretation is incorrect and why you believe so. So, here goes

 

26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all.

This is obviously at the very last day of God's judgment at the end of the 1000 year reign. It then says that "all" will come forth. As I read this there isn't anyone left out.

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father.

So God then places all of the resurrected in one of two groups. The wicked or the righteous, one on one hand the other on his other hand. The righteous go into eternal life. Everyone else are wicked and are found obviously on the left hand. There isn't any other separation spoken of here. This is Christ speaking here, he trumps what any prophet would say.

28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

So, to everyone not receiving eternal life, they all go into everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his Angels. 

Explain therefore, where some other group may perhaps fit. Or, explain how perhaps Joseph Smith didn't quote Christ correctly?

[Ahab]

18 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Now THAT I agree with!

Do you also agree that the glory of God is intelligence?  Let's both just focus on getting as much as we can.

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

I will quote the surrounding scriptures I posted and give you my commentary on them. I do this because I am inquiring from you if they, or my interpretation is incorrect and why you believe so. So, here goes

 

26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all.

This is obviously at the very last day of God's judgment at the end of the 1000 year reign. It then says that "all" will come forth. As I read this there isn't anyone left out.

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father.

So God then places all of the resurrected in one of two groups. The wicked or the righteous, one on one hand the other on his other hand. The righteous go into eternal life. Everyone else are wicked and are found obviously on the left hand. There isn't any other separation spoken of here. This is Christ speaking here, he trumps what any prophet would say.

28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

So, to everyone not receiving eternal life, they all go into everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his Angels. 

Explain therefore, where some other group may perhaps fit. Or, explain how perhaps Joseph Smith didn't quote Christ correctly?

I'm feeling ignored.  Didn't you see my post to you about this?

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

See this is why I think I am ahead of you on gospel knowledge.  Being a member of the true church of Jesus Christ really is important, even though you don't seem to think so.  And all of the ordinances are important, starting with the one that people get to become a member of the one and only true church of Christ and then on to all of the others that are available in the true church that are administered by men and women who have the authority of God to administer those ordinances.  What looks like a duck and quacks like a duck isn't necessarily a real or living duck.  There is only one way and I have found it.  His way.  The way he has established with his authorized servants doing what he wants his servants to do.  I do like you and I think you are a very nice person but you still have a lot to learn, a lot of basics, and until then you will be a nice man who hasn't caught on yet. I don't want to be pushy but those are the facts and the truth... and I will say "in my perspective" now so that I won't sound too "preachy" or pushy and like everyone else who is simply expressing my "opinion".

Thanks my friend. I just have one concern about you.  I read somewhere that humility is a required trait for admission to the celestial kingdom. I fear you may be stuck in the telestial kingdom with me! Me for my lack of proper baptism and you for your lack of humility! 🙄

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

So yes I agree with your great point that baptism is only necessary for Celestial progression. But on the other hand I think the celestial Kingdom will be a lot more crowded than we think! 

I was always taught that Heavenly Father's plan would save the majority of His children.  I like to think that that is true (i'm not sure if it works with the parable about the strait and narrow path and the few that find it, but I have hope).

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Thanks my friend. I just have one concern about you.  I read somewhere that humility is a required trait for admission to the celestial kingdom. I fear you may be stuck in the telestial kingdom with me! Me for my lack of proper baptism and you for your lack of humility! 🙄

I am humble with God.  You and everyone else on this planet are just people like me.  Sorry to burst your bubble if you think I'm supposed to be humbled by you or any other mortal on this planet.

edit:  and don't sell yourself short.  You may end up with Terrestrial glory by the time this is done, if you don't go on to receive Celestial glory.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Ahab

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Sunslight said:

I will quote the surrounding scriptures I posted and give you my commentary on them. I do this because I am inquiring from you if they, or my interpretation is incorrect and why you believe so. So, here goes

 

26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all.

This is obviously at the very last day of God's judgment at the end of the 1000 year reign. It then says that "all" will come forth. As I read this there isn't anyone left out.

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father.

So God then places all of the resurrected in one of two groups. The wicked or the righteous, one on one hand the other on his other hand. The righteous go into eternal life. Everyone else are wicked and are found obviously on the left hand. There isn't any other separation spoken of here. This is Christ speaking here, he trumps what any prophet would say.

28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

So, to everyone not receiving eternal life, they all go into everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his Angels. 

Explain therefore, where some other group may perhaps fit. Or, explain how perhaps Joseph Smith didn't quote Christ correctly?

These verses are concerning the second coming of Christ, before the millennium and the final judgement.  They describe the events when the righteous who have followed Christ will be separated from the wicked who did not at His return.  The righteous will stay on the earth for the millenium and the wicked will suffer the consquences of their wickedness.  

Then, after the wicked have suffered in hell, will come the final judgement.

Edited January 18, 2020 by bluebell

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I didn't realize until today that our doctrine (at least as it was taught by Joseph F. Smith--if i'm remembering which Smith it was correctly--teaches that none of the ordinances, including baptism, is necessary to receive the lesser degrees of glory.  

Baptism is only necessary to receive the Celestial kingdom. 

News to me!

Someone said Joseph F Smith and another Joseph Fielding Smith - I don't want to weigh in on that as an outsider but wasn't it Joseph Fielding Smith? 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi Calm or anyone else who wants to opine:

Is not accepting certain specific unique LDS doctrines a sin for which someone must repent?

I don't believe refusing a blessing automatically is a sin, but there might be some reasons for doing so that are.

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Fine. 

Then go into an LDS temple and perform some initiatories on some patrons.

Obviously you don't believe in the efficacy of the ordinances which are only performed by the LDS Church.

Obviously you don't know what they're for or how even to administer them.

What you are saying is that there is no need for LDS ordinances.

And that is why you are not LDS and do not understand how this works.

I mean you absolutely no disrespect and I hope you know that by now.

But it seems simple logic to me that only LDS priesthood holders who know how to do the ordinances, and believe in their efficacy, can administer those ordinances, if nothing else because of their beliefs in them and their training.

It's a tautology. You don't believe because you don't believe.

And that is what separates you from the rest of your ward. Their entire understanding of how the world works is different than yours.

When they get a chance to go to the temple to which Temple do the members go? They would be in an assigned Temple District.  Is it far? Do they take buses or carpool or how do they get there?

The answers to those questions may seem trivial but they would indicate your degree of separation from them and those aspects of their lives.

 

Nope, you have it all wrong! I absolutely believe in the efficacy of ordinances which are only performed by the LDS Church for members of the LDS church! You are right (you heard it from me!) I cannot perform any ordinance in an LDS setting. I have seen several of them performed but may not perform them myself. You are right. Let me turn the table. By the exact same reality, you may not perform any ordinance in a Mennonite or Baptist church! Am I right? Of course I am. Come on and make my day. Admit it! 

And you do deny their efficacy for me or any other Mennonite. Of course you can perform your own ordinances. Have I ever even hinted that I don't think that is appropriate. What I have maintained since day one on this forum is that I don't believe that LDS ordinances are the only valid ordinances in the entirety of the Christian community. That is a huge distinction. Oh, and there are lots of folks in my ward who don't go the temple either. I am not the only one. It is around the corner from our chapel. Lots of folks don't have callings either. No buses, they walk up a hill about a hundred yards. I have heard the Temple President and the Bishop bemoan in public those facts. And I have sat in sessions at MHA where it is said by LDS sociologists and data wonks that 30% or less of members of the church hold a temple recommend. If I were sure that my church had the only valid ordinances in the world, I would sure go and would be faithful. I am faithful in everything I can be faithful in and I am not even a member. My wife and I leave in ten minutes to clean the chapel. Oh, and I am very proud that President Hinckley built the first of the small temples right in our little community. It would never dawn on me to suggest or even think that you need to go to a Mennonite church to receive a valid ordinance. Yet, you assure me that one way or ta other I will have to have a Mormon ordinance, in this life or the next to experience eternal life and yet you have never even witnessed a Mennonite baptism. Am I wrong. You have never witnessed a Mennonite ordination. Am I wrong?  Hey, I said you were right about something. Doesn't that make your day! Ha! Gotta go! Now where is that Lysol?

Edited January 18, 2020 by Navidad

[Ahab]

10 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Nope, you have it all wrong! I absolutely believe in the efficacy of ordinances which are only performed by the LDS Church for members of the LDS church! You are right (you heard it from me!) I cannot perform any ordinance in an LDS setting. I have seen several of them performed but may not perform them myself. You are right. Let me turn the table. By the exact same reality, you may not perform any ordinance in a Mennonite or Baptist church! Am I right? Of course I am. Come on and make my day. Admit it! 

It isn't just for members of our Church, though.  We bring people into our Church through our ordinances, whereas before that they were not members of it.  And this is the true church of Jesus Christ I am talking about.  Other Christian churches are basically like social clubs for Christians.  You have your own rites and ceremonies and they pertain only to your own churches, just as other churches do their own things, with none of that having anything to do with the true church of Jesus Christ.  I've explained this to you already so I don't want to beat it to death but you should understand this by now if you have been paying attention while you have been associating with us.

 

Edited January 18, 2020 by Ahab

[The Nehor]

43 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I was always taught that Heavenly Father's plan would save the majority of His children.  I like to think that that is true (i'm not sure if it works with the parable about the strait and narrow path and the few that find it, but I have hope).

Factor in those who died before the age of accountability, possibly all stillbirths and maybe even miscarriages, those who accept the gospel after death, and the many people due to be born in the Millenium and it seems much easier to understand how a majority could find exaltation.

[The Nehor]

16 minutes ago, Navidad said:

And you do deny their efficacy for me or any other Mennonite. 

Yes, and I have a respect for the intent of the ordinances of other faiths but our scriptures do not allow us to accept that they are valid. It is not a choice we made. When some early converts insisted they did not need baptism when joining our Church because they had been baptized in other faiths we got a revelation in response:
 

Quote

 

Behold, I say unto you that all old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing; and this is a new and an everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning.

Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.

For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.

Wherefore, enter ye in at the gate, as I have commanded, and seek not to counsel your God. Amen.

 

 

[Ahab]

46 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I was always taught that Heavenly Father's plan would save the majority of His children.  I like to think that that is true (i'm not sure if it works with the parable about the strait and narrow path and the few that find it, but I have hope).

I was also taught that coupled with the idea that exaltation wouldn't happen all at once.  Even after baptism, when people are free from sin and haven't had time to commit any other sins, yet, they still have a long way to go before they are ready for exaltation.  I don't think it necessarily takes a long time, though. After a while I got tired of sinning intentionally just because I didn't like the way I felt afterwards, before I repented, so now I only rarely sin and it's usually unintentional.  The main thing is to receive all of the ordinances and to repent when necessary and to continue to exercise faith so we can keep learning.  It's very easy to do when we put our mind to it and it is what we want to do.  But still it's a process and takes some time to learn from our experiences.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

This is Christ speaking here, he trumps what any prophet would say.

Uh, no.

It is what a prophet said Christ said.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Thanks my friend. I just have one concern about you.  I read somewhere that humility is a required trait for admission to the celestial kingdom. I fear you may be stuck in the telestial kingdom with me! Me for my lack of proper baptism and you for your lack of humility! 🙄

If that is not incentive for baptism I do not know what is.

[mfbukowski]

31 minutes ago, Navidad said:

By the exact same reality, you may not perform any ordinance in a Mennonite or Baptist church! Am I right? Of course I am. Come on and make my day. Admit it! 

Huh?

Why would I want to? I would not find them valid, and I do not attend a Mennonite church every Sunday.  

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

Uh, no.

It is what a prophet said Christ said.

That's strange.  I don't see that I said what your quote shows me as saying.  But it does sound a little bit like something I would say, though.  Christ speaks through his prophets and yes Christ does trump what any of his prophets would say.  His prophets represent him to share his mind and will, which is why we call them prophets rather than just preachers, but wile they represent him and his mind and will they are not him.  And yet, in another sense, it is the same.   What his prophets say is to be treated as if he had said it himself.

[mfbukowski]

11 minutes ago, Ahab said:

That's strange.  I don't see that I said what your quote shows me as saying.  But it does sound a little bit like something I would say, though.  Christ speaks through his prophets and yes Christ does trump what any of his prophets would say.  His prophets represent him to share his mind and will, which is why we call them prophets rather than just preachers, but wile they represent him and his mind and will they are not him.  And yet, in another sense, it is the same.   What his prophets say is to be treated as if he had said it himself.

Sorry, Sunslight said it

So it is automatically what Chist says, because someone says it is?

How do you know.? 

Testimony.

You can't trust words on a page. If you don't have a testimony there's no way of knowing if it's a prophet or Christ himself.

Anybody can say he's speaking for Christ.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Sunslight said:

Explain therefore, where some other group may perhaps fit. Or, explain how perhaps Joseph Smith didn't quote Christ correctly?

Please lay out the plan of salvation as you see it, or provide a link to a website or blog that fairly represents your take on how Joseph Smith originally understood it (or how he and/or other prophets misunderstood it along the way). That way, your individual points can be considered within a fuller context.

Edited January 18, 2020 by CV75

[mfbukowski]

1828 Webster's

""Damned

---

DAM'NED, participle passive

1. Sentenced to everlasting punishment in a future state; condemned.

2. adjective Hateful; detestable; abominable;

A word chiefly used in profaneness by persons of vulgar manners.""

I am not seeing a whole lot of "blocked as a flow of water there at all

 

""Dam

---

DAM, noun

1. A female parent; used of beasts, particularly of quadrupeds.

2. A human mother, in contempt.

3. A crowned man in the game of draughts.

DAM, noun A mole, bank or mound of earth, or any wall, or a frame of wood, raised to obstruct a current of water, and to raise it, for the purpose of driving millwheels, or for other purposes. Any work that stops and confines water in a pond or bason, or causes it to rise.

DAM, verb transitive

1. To make a dam or to stop a stream of water by a bank of earth, or by any other work; to confine or shut in water. It is common to use, after the verb, in, up, or out; as, to dam in, or to dam up, the water, and to dam out is to prevent water from entering.

2. To confine or restrain from escaping; to shut in.""

And I don't see whole lot about spiritual progression there either.

But yes the words are related.

Edited January 18, 2020 by mfbukowski