'Damned' Vs 'Dammed'- Anyone Have a Dictionary?

[mfbukowski]

46 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

It is comments like yours why traditional Christians get their backs up against us.

We should be sure of what we teach and say. We are not careful enough.

The word "saved" is not ambiguous at all. The Book of Mormon is the most simple and clear doctrine regarding salvation. In the great plan of redemption being "saved" means to be saved from damnation which literally means to be saved from the condemnation of an eternal hell. If we are saved we are saved into God's kingdom. The scriptures do not teach of any other salvation. There is only one plan of redemption and one path for that redemption. Failure to find the path and endure til the end results in not being saved and instead being cast off forever at the last great day. The Book of Mormon teaches this doctrine with a perfect clarity. There is no ambiguity.

Disagree, but seeing your previous posts, further discussion will be unfruitful.

Language is always ambiguous, since it is symbolic. Thoughts are not limited to squiggles on a page.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_language

Edited January 20, 2020 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Sunslight said:

am not sure exactly what to make of our beliefs regarding section 76 but I am not willing to bet away the entire doctrine of Christ found in the Book of Mormon which state that it is impossible to be saved from an everlasting hell unless we become perfectly spotless before God's judgment seat.

Could we not be perfectly spotless in the sense of having paid the debt by suffering and learned not to desire to commit sin, but also not interested in seeking God through baptism and further obedience to receive blessings?  IOW, there are those that do what they absolutely must to be without sin, but do not seek to replace the sin with good?

In that way they could be righteous in the sense of not sinful, but not in the sense of loving and seeking out God.

People who love the lie, the whoremongers, etc....they love that way of life because they do not value the love of God and instead seek for immediate pleasure, etc.  Through suffering for those sins, they could learn the cost of that way of life is too high for the immediate pleasure and therefore reject sin and live blamelessly.  But they don't do it because they seek good, but to avoid pain.  So they are righteous (do no wrong), but not good (seek God).

That reconciles the various teachings for me.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Calm

[Sunslight]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Could we not be perfectly spotless in the sense of having paid the debt by suffering and learned not to desire to commit sin, but also not interested in seeking God through baptism and further obedience to receive blessings?  IOW, there are those that do what they absolutely must to be without sin, but do not seek to replace the sin with good?

In that way they could be righteous in the sense of not sinful, but not in the sense of loving and seeking out God.

People who love the lie, the whoremongers, etc....they love that way of life because they do not value the love of God and instead seek for immediate pleasure, etc.  Through suffering for those sins, they could learn the cost of that way of life is too high for the immediate pleasure and therefore reject sin and live blamelessly.  But they don't do it because they seek good, but to avoid pain.  So they are righteous (do no wrong), but not good (seek God).

That reconciles the various teachings for me.

We wouldn't even need the discussion if we just understood the proper definition of damnation. But because we have misunderstood it to mean anything less than exaltation in the highest degree with the CK we have thus allowed ourselves to pretty much throw out the entire doctrine of redemption as found in the Book of Mormon, PoGP, NT, D&C.

One false idea is that we can somehow pay the debt ourselves through our own suffering as a means of alternate cleansing. I'm not sure where or when this false hope crept into the church but it is flat out wrong. Perhaps it was a simple mistake of misunderstanding Scripture. The only possible way that anyone can become spotless from sin is through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel which includes at minimum repentance and baptism.

Even for the wicked spirits in prison (temporary hell) their only means of escape according to section 138 is through repentance and baptism. There is just no other way mankind becomes clean.

[Sunslight]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Disagree, but seeing your previous posts, further discussion will be unfruitful.

Language is always ambiguous, since it is symbolic. Thoughts are not limited to squiggles on a page.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_language

I guess if one doesn't want to do an investigation of words and meanings on their own they can remain in the dark.

[CV75]

On 1/18/2020 at 8:34 PM, Sunslight said:

I read the verses you posted as differing degrees of condemnation to hell, some longer durations than others in hell.

The ancients perceived time and space as the same thing, and the spiritual and physicals worlds were the same also. That is why the OT does not speak of damnation at all, and the word used to translate the Greek words was chosen as later Christians translated NT documents according to and reflecting their theology. But the same concept was the same in the OT and NT (the same God), representing a continuum. So "greater" would apply to place, condition and duration.

[Sunslight]

5 minutes ago, CV75 said:

The ancients perceived time and space as the same thing, and the spiritual and physicals worlds were the same also. That is why the OT does not speak of damnation at all, and the word used to translate the Greek words was chosen as later Christians translated NT documents according to and reflecting their theology. But the same concept was the same in the OT and NT (the same God), representing a continuum. So "greater" would apply to place, condition and duration.

Let's say for example that damnation could mean telestial salvation or terrestrial salvation or even celestial lower salvation and let's select the scriptures and plug in the new words-

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the telestial salvation.

I am not sure this really fits at all. Basically it would be saying that because they are hypocrites and thieves that they would nevertheless be saved from hell. It really doesn't make much sense at all.

[pogi]

9 hours ago, Sunslight said:

I am not sure exactly what to make of our beliefs regarding section 76 but I am not willing to bet away the entire doctrine of Christ found in the Book of Mormon which state that it is impossible to be saved from an everlasting hell unless we become perfectly spotless before God's judgment seat.

“Spotless” according to what law? Do you accept that there are different higher and lower laws - telestial, terrestrial, and celestial?  One might be spotless according to a terrestrial law, but are unable to abide a celestial law and are therefore spotted according to a celestial law.

The lowest bar is the telestial law.  That law doesn’t require baptism etc. and they are therefore spotless according to that lower law.  

It only makes sense in that light. You have to accept that everything is in degree according to the law we abide by.  Because there are different degrees of law, there are different degrees of righteousness/wickedness.  One can be righteous and clean according to one law and unclean according to another law.

[Sunslight]

John 5:29

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 

Mosiah 16:11

11 If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation-

 

How are we to interpret the scriptures and plan of redemption in light of the truth found in these two scriptures? We may ask a few questions

1. Who comes forth in the resurrection of endless life?

2. Who comes forth in the resurrection of endless damnation?

3. Who are delivered up to the Devil after resurrection?

4. How is damnation defined in these verses?

[Sunslight]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

“Spotless” according to what law? Do you accept that there are different higher and lower laws - telestial, terrestrial, and celestial?  One might be spotless according to a terrestrial law, but are unable to abide a celestial law and are therefore spotted according to a celestial law.

The lowest bar is the telestial law.  That law doesn’t require baptism etc. and they are therefore spotless according to that lower law.  

It only makes sense in that light. You have to accept that everything is in degree according to the law we abide by.  Because there are different degrees of law, there are different degrees of righteousness/wickedness.  One can be righteous and clean according to one law and unclean according to another law.

I know of no law of the gospel that cleanses besides repentance and baptism. It is the very gate, the bare minimum part of the law that has any cleansing power. Perhaps you could cite where obedience to something lower than this part of the law has cleansing power. Use only Scripture to answer.

[pogi]

6 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

I know of no law of the gospel that cleanses besides repentance and baptism. It is the very gate, the bare minimum part of the law that has any cleansing power. Perhaps you could cite where obedience to something lower than this part of the law has cleansing power. Use only Scripture to answer.

My point is that one only requires cleansing if they have transgressed a law.  

The law we have been given in mortality is a higher law than the telestial law.  

The scriptures make it clear that they will pay a penalty for transgressing the law we have been given in mortality (assuming they were not ignorant of it) but have not transgressed the lower telestial law and therefore require no cleansing for entrance into that kingdom.

 

[Sunslight]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

My point is that one only requires cleansing if they have transgressed a law.  

The law we have been given in mortality is a higher law than the telestial law.  

The scriptures make it clear that they will pay a penalty for transgressing the law we have been given in mortality (assuming they were not ignorant of it) but have not transgressed the lower telestial law and therefore require no cleansing for entrance into that kingdom.

 

They will definitely pay a penalty but in order to be released from Satan's grip in hell they must repent and be baptized. This doctrine is clear from section 138.

I am fine with telestial law including repentance and baptism.

[Sunslight]

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
            59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Sunslight said:

Let's say for example that damnation could mean telestial salvation or terrestrial salvation or even celestial lower salvation and let's select the scriptures and plug in the new words-

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the telestial salvation.

I am not sure this really fits at all. Basically it would be saying that because they are hypocrites and thieves that they would nevertheless be saved from hell. It really doesn't make much sense at all.

On its face, "telestial salvation" makes perfect sense to me, as does "greater damnation."

[Sunslight]

25 minutes ago, CV75 said:

On its face, "telestial salvation" makes perfect sense to me, as does "greater damnation."

But the context of the Scripture alludes to condemnation, not salvation. 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Sunslight said:

But the context of the Scripture alludes to condemnation, not salvation. 

meh. I thought you were pointing out that salvation and condemnation are opposites, and that greater condemnation means lesser salvation, changing only the wording of the scripture, retaining the alluded meaning, with the context also the same in either case. Thus, on its face, "telestial salvation" still makes perfect sense to me, as does "greater damnation."

In the Creation, there was not just Day and Night in terms of noonday and midnight, and the seven days did not switch between these two moments but along all degrees of Earth's rotation. There was not just one light ruling both, but a greater and a lesser light, and stars. There were other forms of great variety, e.g. not just one level of mountain and another of valley, each with perpendicular walls. The same with water: not just one level. And all the forms of life. The absolutes have innumerable gradients in between (in this world, life and death have all sorts of conditions in between). The same dynamic follows for Damnation (from the Fall) and Salvation (from the Atonement), which are the ends of Creation and Restoration.

Edited January 20, 2020 by CV75

[Sunslight]

13 minutes ago, CV75 said:

meh. I thought you were pointing out that salvation and condemnation are opposites, and that greater condemnation means lesser salvation, changing only the wording of the scripture, retaining the alluded meaning, with the context also the same in either case. Thus, on its face, "telestial salvation" still makes perfect sense to me, as does "greater damnation."

In the Creation, there was not just Day and Night in terms of noonday and midnight, and the seven days did not switch between these two moments but along all degrees of Earth's rotation. There was not just one light ruling both, but a greater and a lesser light, and stars. There were other forms of great variety, e.g. not just one level of mountain and another of valley, each with perpendicular walls. The same with water: not just one level. And all the forms of life. The absolutes have innumerable gradients in between (in this world, life and death have all sorts of conditions in between). The same dynamic follows for Damnation (from the Fall) and Salvation (from the Atonement), which are the ends of Creation and Restoration.

That idea blurs the lines between salvation and damnation to the point one cannot understand the scriptures at all. There is a direct line drawn between salvation and damnation according to the scriptures. It is not possible to receive salvation, or be an heir of salvation and have damnation at the same time. It's the same thing with one cannot receive both eternal life and eternal death at the same time. They are antonyms in meaning.

[pogi]

4 hours ago, Sunslight said:

I am fine with telestial law including repentance and baptism.

The scriptures aren't.  

What would keep a person out of terrestrial glory if they were perfectly spotless and clean from all transgression of the laws we have been given through repentance, baptism, and perfect reconciliation with all law given?  What would keep them out of the celestial, for that matter?

There are clearly degrees of damnation just as there are degrees of glory.  One could be saved in in terrestrial glory but damned from celestial glory. Anyone not saved in the celestial kingdom experiences damnation.  The Latin root for damned is damnum, which simply means injury or loss.  If one does not possess every blessing possible to them, then they experience this "loss" of damnation. 

https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Damnation

Edited January 20, 2020 by pogi

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Sunslight said:

That idea blurs the lines between salvation and damnation to the point one cannot understand the scriptures at all. There is a direct line drawn between salvation and damnation according to the scriptures. It is not possible to receive salvation, or be an heir of salvation and have damnation at the same time. It's the same thing with one cannot receive both eternal life and eternal death at the same time. They are antonyms in meaning.

This is why the extent to which one is saved opposes the extent to which one is damned (e.g. your comparison of greater damnation with telestial salvation). This is why your substitution using makes sense to me and supports my points. As long as there are gradients to be found between absolutes, it makes sense. 90% of one is 10% of another.

Edited January 20, 2020 by CV75

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

meh. I thought you were pointing out that salvation and condemnation are opposites, and that greater condemnation means lesser salvation, changing only the wording of the scripture, retaining the alluded meaning, with the context also the same in either case. Thus, on its face, "telestial salvation" still makes perfect sense to me, as does "greater damnation."

In the Creation, there was not just Day and Night in terms of noonday and midnight, and the seven days did not switch between these two moments but along all degrees of Earth's rotation. There was not just one light ruling both, but a greater and a lesser light, and stars. There were other forms of great variety, e.g. not just one level of mountain and another of valley, each with perpendicular walls. The same with water: not just one level. And all the forms of life. The absolutes have innumerable gradients in between (in this world, life and death have all sorts of conditions in between). The same dynamic follows for Damnation (from the Fall) and Salvation (from the Atonement), which are the ends of Creation and Restoration.

And besides, it is all definitions.

He "called" them into existence by defining them as day and night.

Read Genesis carefully for the word "called"

The line is as indefinite as any word can be

 

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by mfbukowski

[Sunslight]

24 minutes ago, pogi said:

The scriptures aren't.  

What would keep a person out of terrestrial glory if they were perfectly spotless and clean from all transgression of the laws we have been given through repentance, baptism, and perfect reconciliation with all law given?  What would keep them out of the celestial, for that matter?

There are clearly degrees of damnation just as there are degrees of glory.  One could be saved in in terrestrial glory but damned from celestial glory. Anyone not saved in the celestial kingdom experiences damnation.  The Latin root for damned is damnum, which simply means injury or loss.  If one does not possess every blessing possible to them, then they experience this "loss" of damnation. 

https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Damnation

The definition you give is completely unfounded from a Scripture standpoint. Prove it with Scripture.

[Sunslight]

21 minutes ago, CV75 said:

This is why the extent to which one is saved opposes the extent to which one is damned (e.g. your comparison of greater damnation with telestial salvation). This is why your substitution using makes sense to me and supports my points. As long as there are gradients to be found between absolutes, it makes sense. 90% of one is 10% of another.

One cannot be both spotless and filthy at the same time. In order to be saved from hell eternally one must be found completely spotless. To be damned is the worst condemnation God can give. There is no greater condemnation than damnation. It is opposed to salvation in any degree. The scriptures teach us this truth.

[pogi]

7 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

The definition you give is completely unfounded from a Scripture standpoint. Prove it with Scripture.

I really wish you would stop avoiding my questions because I am interested in dialogue.  But you are making it impossible.

The definition of damnation?  The scriptures are not a dictionary. You  won’t find your definition in there either.  Look at a Latin dictionary, in the other hand, and you will find this definition for damnation.

 

[mfbukowski]

15 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

The definition you give is completely unfounded from a Scripture standpoint. Prove it with Scripture.

Easy.

Section 76

They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
            33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
            34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
            35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
            36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
            37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;
            38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.
            39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.
            40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us

[CV75]

19 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

One cannot be both spotless and filthy at the same time. In order to be saved from hell eternally one must be found completely spotless. To be damned is the worst condemnation God can give. There is no greater condemnation than damnation. It is opposed to salvation in any degree. The scriptures teach us this truth.

But one can be somewhat clean and somewhat filthy, or a little, or a lot. One can be saved from hell eternally -- somewhat, or a little, or a lot, or completely. And one can be incompletely spotless or incompletely soiled as well as completely. Of course God can give His worst (there is no worse) and His best (there is no better), as well as whatever portion of either we choose to receive from Him.

[CV75]

14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Easy.

Section 76

They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
            33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
            34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
            35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
            36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
            37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;
            38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.
            39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.
            40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us

Oh-oh. You did it.You apparently do not realize that the three kingdoms of glory are not about the afterlife, but about the phases of earth's timetable prior to all the children of God being designated as damned or saved in the final judgement, and that Joseph misinterpreted his vision.