'Damned' Vs 'Dammed'- Anyone Have a Dictionary?

[Sunslight]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Three points, 3 errors in your interpretation. The point is that he CHANGED his understanding of what the word meant. You tacitly admit that by saying "by the time (of) the King Follett.... Joseph had a better grasp of salvation."  Debate over.

Read section 76.

I will be brief.

Paragraph 1. If they do not repent in the spirit, -after death- as if seeing the Sun and denying it, they would be sons of perdition. Yep damned forever. What you left out was repentance after death.

P2. Talks about pain is spirit, nothing about damnation. Yes presumably they go to hell for a while, temporarily. God takes them behind the woodshed.

3. He says they will be "damned" but he "doesn't know for how long."

Temporary hell right there in King Follett and your quote trying to disprove it.

Then he switches to talking about the sons of Perdition and those who deny the Holy Ghost.

Perhaps you need to read more carefully.  Sometimes your own replies seem to contradict what you are trying to prove.

 

 

Joseph's use of the words damned/damnation always remained the same. What changed was his understanding of the plan of salvation as it related to all. When Joseph received his vision in section 76 he understood that perhaps repentance and baptism were not necessary to escape the eternal damnation of hell. In the King Follett sermon it's apparent that his understanding of salvation, especially for the dead, had evolved. He now taught that obedience to the gospel was essential, even for all the dead, if they wanted to escape the eternal damnation of hell. Another sound point is that Joseph truly understood that damnation was defined as judgment to hell.

[Sunslight]

11 hours ago, CV75 said:

That is not what you asked. You asked, "How would a person ever know if the scriptures were referring to damnation in hell or Damnation in the celestial kingdom or anything between?" You came to your current level of knowledge/understanding according to the principles set forth in Alma 12: 9-11.

It's no mystery for me. I believe I understand the great plan of redemption. But it must certainly be a mystery for others because they could never know if the damnation they were reading about was salvation in the celestial kingdom or condemnation in outer darkness.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Sunslight said:

. He now taught that obedience to the gospel was essential, even for all the dead, if they wanted to escape the eternal damnation of hell.

You appear to have turned nearly hundred eighty degrees from your original statements, I have little to disagree with you about in that post except for what I quoted above.

Hell is a temporary State and is synonymous with Spirit prison. I also think it contains different degrees of punishment, similar to the different degrees of Glory. I go with Dante on that one.

Only the sons of Perdition go to Outer Darkness.

I wish you well I feel that's my final statement for this thread. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

Edited January 22, 2020 by mfbukowski

[Sunslight]

28 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

You appear to have turned nearly hundred eighty degrees from your original statements, I have little to disagree with you about in that post except for what I quoted above.

Hell is a temporary State and is synonymous with Spirit prison. I also think it contains different degrees of punishment, similar to the different degrees of Glory. I go with Dante on that one.

Only the sons of Perdition go to Outer Darkness.

I wish you well I feel that's my final statement for this thread. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

I haven't changed anything, perhaps you just understand me differently than you did before. Hell is both temporary and permanent. Outer darkness is hell just as spirit prison is hell.

[Ahab]

23 hours ago, Sunslight said:

I haven't changed anything, perhaps you just understand me differently than you did before. Hell is both temporary and permanent. Outer darkness is hell just as spirit prison is hell.

I agree with you on this.  Eternal damnation is eternal only in the sense that it will go on forever as God's way of help someone to see the error of their way.  For those who do not repent when they see the error of their way they will go on seeing the error of their way without ever changing their way.  For others a little while will be long enough for them to choose to repent from the error of their way.  I like how Joseph explained it as a torment of the mind/spirit.  When we can see that we are in error about something it usually does not feel good, in contrast to how it feels when we know we are right about something.  We don''t usually like to see that we are wrong about something.  Those of us who are humble with God sometimes respond with gratitude that God has helped us to see the error of our way while quickly choosing to repent, but those of us who are not so humble can get rather upset at the idea that we are wrong about something and dig our heels in because we do not want to consider that we may be wrong.  Satan, for example, seems to be eternally stuck on the idea that he was right to do what he did, and still right to do what he does, when he rebelled and continues to rebel against God.  I'm sure God has tried to help him see the error of his way for quite a while now, and will go on doing so forever as long as he has his current mindset, but until then he will continue to refuse to change his way and continue to feel God helping him to see that he was and still is in error about his way of doing things.  I think that means that the only way to avoid feeling bad when God helps us to see the error of our way is to repent, to change or at least try to change our way and do things God's way, instead, so that we can then feel good about doing things the right way.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Ahab

[Ahab]

On 1/20/2020 at 4:17 PM, Navidad said:

Thanks. Yesterday in Gospel Doctrine Class we had a very large group, many who came from afar for Saturday's funeral. We had a wonderful discussion about the tree of life, the path, river, and rod of iron. We discussed who was in the building and what the make-up was of the three groups on the path. The folks agreed that the tree of life represented Christ and the atonement. The teacher commented that those on the path who got to the tree and ate did so via their faithfulness to their covenants and the ordinances which combined represent the iron rod. I asked what the class thought about whether or not there would be non-LDS Christians in the third group. Based on what I had read in this forum about their being no ordinances required for the telestial or terrestrial kingdoms, I asked if perhaps the tree of life could refer to the celestial kingdom since the teacher said doing ordinances was one of the parts of clinging to the iron rod to get to the tree and eat of the fruit. The teacher and the folks agreed that no, the tree does not represent the celestial kingdom, it represents Christ and his atonement. I was a bit confused about the ordinance part then, but I didn't ask anything else. The other thing that interested me was the folks who mentioned about CS Lewis' use of the tree of life imagery in the Narnia Chronicles and how that drove them to study the tree of life in the book of Revelation. I didn't expect to hear the writings of the good Anglican C. S. Lewis mentioned in our gospel doctrine class. I enjoyed the whole discussion. I still wonder that if the teacher was right about the ordinances then the tree might represent the Celestial Kingdom, but I know what I wonder about isn't important to anyone but me, especially if the meaning of the tree is settled doctrine! 🤔

The text itself says the fruit from that tree represents the love of God, and the love of God is simply manifest by Christ and his atoning sacrifice.  The love of God can inspire us to strive for the Celestial kingdom, though, or to strive for heaven at any level,  but we must strive for whatever we can achieve with the love of God to inspire us.  In other words, those who felt the love of God were able to feel it only because they followed the correct path while clinging to the word of God (rod of iron).  Feeling the love of God doesn't mean we have reached the end of the path, though.  The path symbolizes a way of life and we need to actually do something with our lives rather than simply standing around feeling the love of God.  It is wonderful but there is more to life than just that.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Ahab

[Sunslight]

The tree of life is eternal life and each one of us can taste of that fruit. The tree of life is found wothin the paradise of God and eternally in his kingdom.

[Sunslight]

Nephi's interpretation of the tree of life and spacious building, etc, paints a much broader picture that tells the whole story of Christ, the apostles, the scriptures, apostasy, the path back and finally the partaking of the fruit which is eternal life in the celestial kingdom. The story presents the idea of eternal life or bust, all or nothing.

[Ahab]

35 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

Nephi's interpretation of the tree of life and spacious building, etc, paints a much broader picture that tells the whole story of Christ, the apostles, the scriptures, apostasy, the path back and finally the partaking of the fruit which is eternal life in the celestial kingdom. The story presents the idea of eternal life or bust, all or nothing.

That's because the ultimate way of life is to have the love of God, to both receive it as well as show/share/give/extend it to others.  To live the way God lives.  To do what God does and has done and will continue to do forever.  Any way of life that isn't that good just isn't as good.

[Sunslight]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

That's because the ultimate way of life is to have the love of God, to both receive it as well as show/share/give/extend it to others.  To live the way God lives.  To do what God does and has done and will continue to do forever.  Any way of life that isn't that good just isn't as good.

Yes. I think we are created to fill the measure of our creation and God has a perfect plan to exalt everyone who he saves in his kingdom. I believe the fruit of the tree has this power.

[Ahab]

18 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

Yes. I think we are created to fill the measure of our creation and God has a perfect plan to exalt everyone who he saves in his kingdom. I believe the fruit of the tree has this power.

I think children are created simply because their parents enjoy the act of reproducing themselves and having more of themselves in their own families.  Children do have the potential to become like their parents, if they want to and can get enough input from their parents, but I don't think the potential of their children are what their parents are thinking about when they are reproducing themselves.  Actually, wait a minute, you may have something there, after all.  I love the idea of having more reproductions of my wife to make my own life better, and my wife continues to want to have more of me, too.  So, yeah, maybe that is the reason.  Children are created because their parents want to have more of each other as reproductions of themselves, knowing they have the potential to become exactly like them.

[echelon]

On 1/17/2020 at 8:00 AM, ERMD said:

It's one of my favorite talks, but Elder Bednar uses it in "Things As They Really Are."

Satan does not have a body, and his eternal progress has been halted. Just as water flowing in a riverbed is stopped by a dam, so the adversary’s eternal progress is thwarted because he does not have a physical body. Because of his rebellion, Lucifer has denied himself all of the mortal blessings and experiences made possible through a tabernacle of flesh and bones. He cannot learn the lessons that only an embodied spirit can learn. He cannot marry or enjoy the blessings of procreation and family life. He cannot abide the reality of a literal and universal resurrection of all mankind. One of the potent scriptural meanings of the word damned is illustrated in his inability to continue developing and becoming like our Heavenly Father.

Is Elder Bednar saying that even with an unlimited amount of time (eternity), Lucifer will not be able to progress in knowledge (outside of what comes with a body) among which how to create a body of his own? 

Assuming that the first immortalized being started out as a spirit and not as an immortal, then Satan should, if given enough time, be able to do the same thing.

So just for fun, let's say that he does know how to make a body. The only way to halt his progress further is to guard over the application of that knowledge by God the Father. (i.e. withholding the materials needed in order to form the body).  Maybe a form of damnation is not the limitation to acquire knowledge (how would we know what we don't know), but actually being able to use it.

 

[mfbukowski]

On 1/29/2020 at 6:19 PM, echelon said:

Assuming that the first immortalized being started out as a spirit and not as an immortal, then Satan should, if given enough time, be able to do the same thing.

To make it totally anthropomorphic, though in my heart of hearts, I take these as tendencies we all have psychologically.  But personified, I think Satan is just overly competitive and to him it a vast game.   He is the ultimate video gamer, the competition is more important than the empty results of "winning".

I am not a game person, because I did not grow up with siblings, I think.  I have never quite understood competition for competition's sake, or why "winning" a game is important to some folks, unless there is some kind of "real" reward.  But obviously I am weird about this.  I do not identify with sports teams at all.    But here I am trying to "win the debate" all the time but at least I fantasize that the debate might help others understand God a little better, even if it is ultimately just ego gratification.  THAT is the whole problem ultimately- isn't it?   There is a little "Satan" in all of us as carnal beings which gives us something to overcome.

  Continuing the anthropomorphic story, he is addicted to the battle itself, for its own sake.  He is condemned to "crawl on his belly" and not rise above his snaky, reptilian, sociopathic, nature.   Pure hunter and competitor.  Win at all costs.  Stomp out the little people ignorant people.  Make them obey.   The ultimate elitist.

If he figured out how to make a body, he would end the game and have to find another gig.

Well, as a fall - back, there is always becoming a politician I guess. 

He could always go for Emperor of the World which is what he kind of really wants anyway. 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by mfbukowski

[CV75]

On 1/29/2020 at 9:19 PM, echelon said:

Is Elder Bednar saying that even with an unlimited amount of time (eternity), Lucifer will not be able to progress in knowledge (outside of what comes with a body) among which how to create a body of his own? 

Assuming that the first immortalized being started out as a spirit and not as an immortal, then Satan should, if given enough time, be able to do the same thing.

So just for fun, let's say that he does know how to make a body. The only way to halt his progress further is to guard over the application of that knowledge by God the Father. (i.e. withholding the materials needed in order to form the body).  Maybe a form of damnation is not the limitation to acquire knowledge (how would we know what we don't know), but actually being able to use it.

I think you cease to acquire, and even lose,  knowledge once you cease to use what you've been given (Alma 32, Matthew 25:14-30).

[Ahab]

34 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

To make it totally anthropomorphic, though in my heart of hearts, I take these as tendencies we all have psychologically.  But personified, I think Satan is just overly competitive and to him it a vast game.   He is the ultimate video gamer, the competition is more important than the empty results of "winning".

I am not a game person, because I did not grow up with siblings, I think.  I have never quite understood competition for competition's sake, or why "winning" a game is important to some folks, unless there is some kind of "real" reward.  But obviously I am weird about this.  I do not identify with sports teams at all.    But here I am trying to "win the debate" all the time but at least I fantasize that the debate might help others understand God a little better, even if it is ultimately just ego gratification.  THAT is the whole problem ultimately- isn't it?   There is a little "Satan" in all of us as carnal beings which gives us something to overcome.

  Continuing the anthropomorphic story, he is addicted to the battle itself, for its own sake.  He is condemned to "crawl on his belly" and not rise above his snaky, reptilian, sociopath, nature.   Pure hunter and competitor.  Win at all costs.  Stomp out the little people ignorant people.  Make them obey.   The ultimate elitist.

If he figured out how to make a body, he would end the game and have to find another gig.

Well, as a fall - back, there is always becoming a politician I guess. 

He could always go for Emperor of the World which is what he kind of really wants anyway. 

 

 

I love sharing the gospel because I learn and grow as I do it.  Similar to or maybe the same as how missionaries benefit from serving a mission.  I get ideas all the time as I do it, growing in knowledge as I use what little I have.  By myself I think I am a stupid man, making a lot of bad decisions that I later regret, but when in the service of my fellow beings I get such good ideas that I'm sometimes blown away by what I am saying, or actually by what God is inspiring me to say.  Not all the time, because sometimes I speak as a man and not as a prophet, but when I speak as a prophet, I am having one of the best experiences I have ever had in my life.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Ahab

[InCognitus]

I'm not sure which thread to post this in, because I haven't followed all of these threads from beginning to end and I don't remember which thread had these discussions, (so forgive me if this has already been said), but this quote from Joseph Smith is extremely relevant to all these conversations about being "saved" or "damned" or whether or not baptism is necessary for one kingdom or another:

Quote

Every man lives for himself. Adam was made to open the way of the world, and for dressing the garden. Noah was born to save seed of everything, when the earth was washed of its wickedness by the flood; and the Son of God came into the world to redeem it from the fall. But except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. This eternal truth settles the question of all men's religion. A man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit. He may receive a glory like unto the moon, [i.e., of which the light of the moon is typical], or a star, [i.e., of which the light of the stars is typical], but he can never come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels; to the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, unless he becomes as a little child, and is taught by the Spirit of God.  (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section One 1830–34, p.12, in The Joseph Smith Papers:  History, 1838–1856, volume A-1 [23 December 1805–30 August 1834])

I highly respect Joseph Smith's "opinion" on this issue.

And then there's this quote from Joseph Fielding Smith:

Quote

Who, among Latter-day Saints, is seeking a place in the telestial kingdom? Who, among the Latter-day Saints, is seeking a place in the terrestrial kingdom? With those kingdoms we should want nothing to do; it is not the intention of the man who is baptized into the Church, or ought not to be, to so live that he will not find a place in the celestial kingdom of God; for baptism, itself, is the way into that kingdom. Baptism is of two-fold nature; primarily for the remission of sins, and then, entrance into the kingdom of God, not the telestial kingdom, not into the terrestrial kingdom, but entrance into the celestial kingdom, where God dwells. That is what baptism is for; that is what the gift of the Holy Ghost, by the laying on of hands, is for—to prepare us that we may, through obedience, continue on and on, keeping the commandments of the Lord, until we shall receive the fulness in the celestial kingdom.  (In Conference Report, Apr. 1922, 60–61, quoted in Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Fielding Smith, Chapter 13 on Baptism)

 

Edited February 1, 2020 by InCognitus