CV75 Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 14 hours ago, Sunslight said: How would a person ever know if the scriptures were referring to damnation in hell or Damnation in the celestial kingdom or anything between? That's sounds really confusing. Your answer is in the very verse you replied to: Alma 12: 9-11.
Sunslight Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 5 minutes ago, CV75 said: Your answer is in the very verse you replied to: Alma 12: 9-11. I read damnation as always referring to hell. I was asking you how you would ever know. It's settled for me. Anytime it says damned it means hell.
Sunslight Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 5 hours ago, mfbukowski said: But you just admitted that only the sons of perdition will be damned forever, and they go to outer darkness- hell itself is a temporary state. Section 76 regarding telestial kingdom: 81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament. 82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus. 83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit. 84 These are they who are thrust down to hell. 85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work. ""86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial; 87 And the terrestrial through the aministration of the celestial. 88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be aministering spirits for them; for they shall be bheirs of salvation."" Hell is temporary for those who repent and are baptized and permanent for those who refuse. This fulfills the many scriptures which say that those who repent and are baptized will be saved while those who refuse will be damned. The Book of Mormon teaches that those who refuse will be cast off forever.
pogi Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 31 minutes ago, Sunslight said: Hell is temporary for those who repent and are baptized and permanent for those who refuse. This fulfills the many scriptures which say that those who repent and are baptized will be saved while those who refuse will be damned. The Book of Mormon teaches that those who refuse will be cast off forever. Only the sons of perdition go to outer darkness. What do the scriptures and the prophets say about the sons of perdition? You can’t seem to reconcile D&C 76 and 132 about the sons of perdition and blaspheme against the Holy Ghost. They require both baptism and the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in order to qualify for such damnation. As the saying goes, the only ones going to hell will be Mormons (or ex-members anyway). 2
Sunslight Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 22 minutes ago, pogi said: Only the sons of perdition go to outer darkness. What do the scriptures and the prophets say about the sons of perdition? You can’t seem to reconcile D&C 76 and 132 about the sons of perdition and blaspheme against the Holy Ghost. They require both baptism and the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in order to qualify for such damnation. As the saying goes, the only ones going to hell will be Mormons (or ex-members anyway). All of the unrepentant will go to outer darkness too. What do the scriptures say about the unrepentant? That they shall suffer eternal or everlasting damnation. Helamn 12 24 And may God grant, in his great fulness, that men might be brought unto repentance and good works, that they might be restored unto grace for grace, according to their works. 25 And I would that all men might be saved. But we read that in the great and last day there are some who shall be cast out, yea, who shall be cast off from the presence of the Lord; 26 Yea, who shall be consigned to a state of endless misery, fulfilling the words which say: They that have done good shall have everlasting life; and they that have done evil shall have everlasting damnation. And thus it is. Amen.
Calm Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 8 minutes ago, Sunslight said: All of the unrepentant will go to outer darkness too. What do the scriptures say about the unrepentant? That they shall suffer eternal or everlasting damnation. Quote Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory (D&C 76:81–86; 88:100–101). So you disagree with the revelation or do you believe prophets have misinterpreted the scripture? And if the latter, how could prophets go so wrong since not only are they guided by the Spirit, but scripture is simple in your view? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/hell?lang=eng
Sunslight Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 11 minutes ago, Calm said: So you disagree with the revelation or do you believe prophets have misinterpreted the scripture? And if the latter, how could prophets go so wrong since not only are they guided by the Spirit, but scripture is simple in your view? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/hell?lang=eng We can read in both section 128 and 138 that the prisoners in hell go free only through repentance and vicarious baptism. It doesn't surprise me that we can misunderstand this doctrine in general because we have obviously not understood Christ's simple doctrine. Section 138 is pretty clear that repentance and baptism are required to be an heir of salvation. We wouldn't even need this whole conversation if we would just understand that damnation means to be condemned into hell.
pogi Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Sunslight said: All of the unrepentant will go to outer darkness too. What do the scriptures say about the unrepentant? That they shall suffer eternal or everlasting damnation. Helamn 12 24 And may God grant, in his great fulness, that men might be brought unto repentance and good works, that they might be restored unto grace for grace, according to their works. 25 And I would that all men might be saved. But we read that in the great and last day there are some who shall be cast out, yea, who shall be cast off from the presence of the Lord; 26 Yea, who shall be consigned to a state of endless misery, fulfilling the words which say: They that have done good shall have everlasting life; and they that have done evil shall have everlasting damnation. And thus it is. Amen. You didn't even attempt to reconcile them. It is easy for me to reconcile them when you understand the various uses of the word "salvation" and "damnation". Your interpretation of scripture requires you to completely dismiss several very clear and direct scriptures (the only scriptures which describe the sons of perdition) and virtually every prophet from Joseph Smith on. Basically, you are suggesting that you know better than the whole church, including the prophet who interpreted the Book of Mormon and personally received and dictated the revelations. You are the only one who gets it right? Not only does your interpretation cause you to dismiss the scriptures and take them in context as a whole, and to dismiss the prophets, it also makes no sense when you consider that there are 3 kingdoms. Please read all these quotes: http://emp.byui.edu/SatterfieldB/Quotes/Sons of Perdition.htm Edited January 21, 2020 by pogi
Calm Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) Sunslight: Could you point out the specific verses in 128 that state those in hell can only go free through repentance and vicarious baptism? Hell is only mentioned once and I am not seeing anything else jump out at me, but since I am about to go to bed and am dozy, happyto be corrected. And does this mean to you those who were baptized already who are in hell are stuck there perpetually since we don't do proxy for those who received it in mortality? I assume you point to this part of sec 138 to support your point: Quote 57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the Gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead. 58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, 59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. Edited January 21, 2020 by Calm
Sunslight Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 9 minutes ago, pogi said: You didn't even attempt to reconcile them. It is easy for me to reconcile them when you understand the various uses of the word "salvation" and "damnation". Your interpretation of scripture requires you to completely dismiss several very clear and direct scriptures (the only scriptures which describe the sons of perdition) and virtually every prophet from Joseph Smith on. Basically, you are suggesting that you know better than the whole church, including the prophet who interpreted the Book of Mormon and personally received and dictated the revelations. You are the only one who gets it right? Not only does your interpretation cause you to dismiss the scriptures and take them in context as a whole, and to dismiss the prophets, it also makes no sense when you consider that there are 3 kingdoms. Please read all these quotes: http://emp.byui.edu/SatterfieldB/Quotes/Sons of Perdition.htm According to the Guide to the Scriptures sons of perdition are defined as those who serve Satan. It is not a requirement to be a member of the church to become a son of perdition. Remaining unrepentant is all that is required. "The followers of Satan who will suffer with him in eternity. Sons of perdition include (1) those who followed Satan and were cast out of heaven for rebellion during premortality and (2) those who were permitted to be born to this world with physical bodies but then served Satan and turned utterly against God. Those in this second group will be resurrected from the dead but will not be redeemed from the second (spiritual) death and cannot dwell in a kingdom of glory (D&C 88:32, 35)." Alma 5 teaches that unless we are washed clean of every sin we become the children of the kingdom of the Devil (sons of perdition) 20 I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil? 21 I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins. 22 And now I ask of you, my brethren, how will any of you feel, if ye shall stand before the bar of God, having your garments stained with blood and all manner of filthiness? Behold, what will these things testify against you? 23 Behold will they not testify that ye are murderers, yea, and also that ye are guilty of all manner of wickedness? 24 Behold, my brethren, do ye suppose that such an one can have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob, and also all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white? 25 I say unto you, Nay; except ye make our Creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil.
Sunslight Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 17 minutes ago, Calm said: Sunslight: Could you point out the specific verses in 128 that state those in hell can only go free through repentance and vicarious baptism? Hell is only mentioned once and I am not seeing anything else jump out at me, but since I am about to go to bed and am dozy, happyto be corrected. And does this mean to you those who were baptized already who are in hell are stuck there perpetually since we don't do proxy for those who received it in mortality? I assume you point to this part of sec 138 to support your point: 22 Brethren, shall we not go on in so great a cause? Go forward and not backward. Courage, brethren; and on, on to the victory! Let your hearts rejoice, and be exceedingly glad. Let the earth break forth into singing. Let the dead speak forth anthems of eternal praise to the King Immanuel, who hath ordained, before the world was, that which would enable us to redeem them out of their prison; for the prisoners shall go free. This is coupled with section 138. Through the two revelations we know assuredly that prisoners in spirit prison only go free through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Kingdom. These include faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. It is only through this means that men can acquire the name of Jesus Christ as their head, the only name given whereby men can be saved from the eternal hell.
pogi Posted January 22, 2020 Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Sunslight said: According to the Guide to the Scriptures... I thought you were a scriptures only kind of guy! You dismiss as opinion the prophets and any other official publications of the church when they disagree with your interpretation of scripture, but now you dismiss scripture in favor of other resources when it suits your position. What does it mean to turn “utterly against God”? The scriptures say it means to ascent to his death after knowing him via the Holy Ghost. That’s what the scriptures say. Edited January 22, 2020 by pogi 1
Ahab Posted January 22, 2020 Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) On 1/18/2020 at 8:02 AM, Navidad said: You posted earlier that you don't sin much anymore, at least not intentionally. I thought that was quite an amazing and arrogant statement. I then read the above statement by you. Your former statement was simply arrogance. This one indeed seems sinful to me. It is exactly the kind of statement that I believe in my heart of hearts that makes God cry. Ever since I read this last evening I have been trying to fight the sense that you are representative of the broad LDS community. Then this morning I read a post on another thread where someone deemed you a Lord of the Sith. I had no idea what that meant so I looked it up. I read this: "Over their long history, the Sith have established great empires, come close to realizing their ambitions of galactic conquest, and nearly eradicated the Jedi. Ultimately, however, they are self-defeating, their grand plans undone time and again by internal strife, rebellion inspired by their vicious tactics, and the psychologically noxious effects of their dark arts and philosophy." That doesn't sound like an affirmation. I certainly wouldn't want to be called that. "Psychologically noxious effects" are what I have been experiencing after I read the above post by you. I woke hoping that someone, one at least among the hundreds or thousands of faithful LDS folks on this forum would speak against what you said in the above quote. Utter silence usually means affirmation, especially on this forum where members of the Church seem to thrive on debating with each other on the finest tiniest points of doctrine. I thought about it this morning. I form at least 40% of my perspective on Mormonism and Mormons from this forum. You are bishops, former bishops, stake presidents, professors of the Church, etc. That isn't a majority of my perspective, but it is close. The rest comes from my associations at the ward, MHA, and contacts with other LDS folks like in the Church History Department, other wards and conferences, etc. You are Mormonism to me. I draw little of my beliefs about Mormonism from your Scriptures, because I draw little about my beliefs of non-LDS Christians from the Bible. I come to my conclusions by the lived lives of those who claim the name of Christ, be they Catholic, Baptist, or LDS. Please, don't ever think I haven't been paying attention to what you have said. Like me, you are nothing more than a sinner saved by grace. I'm not sure that I understand your point about me. You think I am arrogant because I admit that I don't sin anymore and that any future sins I commit would usually be unintentional? I was thinking that I should probably rephrase what I said because I thought later that I what I had said could be understood to mean that I am setting myself up to sin later, and I would not want to leave that impression. Instead of speaking of maybe sinning sometime later in the future and that in the future my sins would be unintentional, I should probably speak only in the present tense about this to say that I am not currently sinning and that I have no plans to sin anytime later. And yes I know that some people think I am a really evil person. Heh, a Lord of the Sith, now, huh. Sheesh what some people will say these days. I think you've probably heard by now how you can know the truth of all things and I think we all still have a lot more that we can learn from God. Edited January 22, 2020 by Ahab
Ahab Posted January 22, 2020 Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) On 1/18/2020 at 9:28 AM, Calm said: It is rare that I want the option to downvote a post, wish this one had it. Navidad, as nice a man as he is, believes any church on this planet can provide the ordinances of salvation. Wouldn't you like to be a part of trying to help him learn that he is mistaken? From the perspective that ordinances offered by other churches are not sealed by he Holy Spirit of promise, what I said is true. Would you like me to find some quotes from prophets and apostles who have said as much? If someone wants to be married forever, which church can provide that ordinance and offer that blessing? Or if someone wants to be baptized into the one and only true church of Jesus Christ, who can they go to for that? There is only one true church of Christ and only one true priesthood of God. Why aren't you admitting as much? Edited January 22, 2020 by Ahab
Ahab Posted January 22, 2020 Posted January 22, 2020 On 1/17/2020 at 9:02 PM, Sunslight said: There are other scriptures in the same section with this "unto" that clarifies 43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe; 44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not; They are either raised in the resurrection unto eternal life or unto eternal damnation. Eternal life is another topic altogether that we don't understand properly. Many of our LDS teach that you substitute "eternal" for the word "God" so that it basically means the type of life God lives or "God's life". Yes, God does live in eternal life but it's not usefull to work it this way. So under that same logic "eternal damnation" would mean the kind of damnation God lives, or rather, the kind of death God dies with. Eternal life deals specifically with our spiritual nature of being alive in the spirit eternally. Verse 44 tells us this because to be redeemed from our spiritual fall (spiritual death) means raised unto "life" and because it will be in an eternal realm and of eternal duration it is thus "eternal life". The opposite of eternal life is obviously "eternal death" according to verse 44 because the eternally damned aren't redeemed from their spiritual death and thus it too is eternal both in its realm and in duration. My point was that "unto" refers to a process and a direction, rather than something that immediately happens. Those who will be resurrected unto eternal life will not be every bit as perfectly good as our Father in heaven or our Lord immediately upon their first moment of being resurrected even if they will have a portion of Celestial glory. It will be a process of growth that will happen gradually, ultimately leading to that perfect state. And the same is true for those who will go in the opposite direction toward evil... meaning they will not be every bit as perfectly evil as Satan as they start down their path of eternal damnation. People who won't repent won't ever get better because they will not repent even though they should repent. People who will not stop being bad will just never get any better.
Sunslight Posted January 22, 2020 Posted January 22, 2020 37 minutes ago, pogi said: I thought you were a scriptures only kind of guy! You dismiss as opinion the prophets and any other official publications of the church when they disagree with your interpretation of scripture, but now you dismiss scripture in favor of other resources when it suits your position. If everything lines up then go with it. Scriptures always comes first though. I suppose you be in the same boat and reject what you will just like me.
Sunslight Posted January 22, 2020 Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Ahab said: My point was that "unto" refers to a process and a direction, rather than something that immediately happens. Those who will be resurrected unto eternal life will not be every bit as perfectly good as our Father in heaven or our Lord immediately upon their first moment of being resurrected even if they will have a portion of Celestial glory. It will be a process of growth that will happen gradually, ultimately leading to that perfect state. And the same is true for those who will go in the opposite direction toward evil... meaning they will not be every bit as perfectly evil as Satan as they start down their path of eternal damnation. People who won't repent won't ever get better because they will not repent even though they should repent. People who will not stop being bad will just never get any better. I see your point. In the Scripture I posted it is something that happens rather immediately. I am sure the glory is ever increasing for the saved just as the amount of glory is ever decreasing for the damned. But, at that moment of resurrection and judgment all men will enter into the way and lifestyle of life or death. Edited January 22, 2020 by Sunslight
Calm Posted January 22, 2020 Posted January 22, 2020 10 minutes ago, Sunslight said: Scriptures always comes first though. Which ones take precedence in your view?
Ahab Posted January 22, 2020 Posted January 22, 2020 4 minutes ago, Sunslight said: I see your point. In the Scripture I posted it is something that happens rather immediately. I am sure the glory is ever increasing for the saved just as the amount of glory is ever decreasing for the damned. But, at that moment of resurrection and judgment all men will enter into the way and lifestyle of life or death. Entering into that way doesn't mean, necessarily, getting all the way to the end of that path, though. That's what I was saying.
mfbukowski Posted January 22, 2020 Author Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, Sunslight said: Hell is temporary for those who repent and are baptized and permanent for those who refuse. This fulfills the many scriptures which say that those who repent and are baptized will be saved while those who refuse will be damned. The Book of Mormon teaches that those who refuse will be cast off forever. And this is why I didn't bother to answer you earlier. Re-read section 76 until it sinks in or do you not accept Section 76? It clarifies all the other uses of damned and Damnation. I posted it just above. This proves the relevance of the thread, and the problems caused by the ambiguity. My position is that in the Book of Mormon Joseph translated in a Protestant context, as part his environment and cultural upbringing Later in D&C he understood better the wishes of the Lord, and was creating his own context. By the time we get to King Follett his understanding is mature Who knows where it would have gone had he survived. Edited January 22, 2020 by mfbukowski 1
CV75 Posted January 22, 2020 Posted January 22, 2020 11 hours ago, Sunslight said: I read damnation as always referring to hell. I was asking you how you would ever know. It's settled for me. Anytime it says damned it means hell. That is not what you asked. You asked, "How would a person ever know if the scriptures were referring to damnation in hell or Damnation in the celestial kingdom or anything between?" You came to your current level of knowledge/understanding according to the principles set forth in Alma 12: 9-11.
Sunslight Posted January 22, 2020 Posted January 22, 2020 4 hours ago, Calm said: Which ones take precedence in your view? The ones that quote the Lord take precedence. 3 Nephi chapters are solid with core doctrine when Christ ministers amongst the Nephites.
Sunslight Posted January 22, 2020 Posted January 22, 2020 4 hours ago, Ahab said: Entering into that way doesn't mean, necessarily, getting all the way to the end of that path, though. That's what I was saying. I suppose. Eternal life is eternal life even if one gains a greater abundance of it everyday for all eternity. 1
Sunslight Posted January 22, 2020 Posted January 22, 2020 4 hours ago, mfbukowski said: And this is why I didn't bother to answer you earlier. Re-read section 76 until it sinks in or do you not accept Section 76? It clarifies all the other uses of damned and Damnation. I posted it just above. This proves the relevance of the thread, and the problems caused by the ambiguity. My position is that in the Book of Mormon Joseph translated in a Protestant context, as part his environment and cultural upbringing Later in D&C he understood better the wishes of the Lord, and was creating his own context. By the time we get to King Follett his understanding is mature Who knows where it would have gone had he survived. Ah yes, by the time the King Fillet Sermon was given Joseph had a better grasp on salvation and the requirements accompanying the great plan. Earlier in his life he wasn't sure. What is apparent is that at the point of his death he had progressed back into a protestant style of teaching hellfire and damnation or glory and salvation, one on one and and the other on the other. Here are a few quotes from that sermon. "Hence the responsibility, the awful responsibility, that rests upon us in relation to our dead; for all the spirits who have not obeyed the gospel in the flesh must either obey it in the spirit or be damned." (Understand that Joseph's upbringing had him believing that to be damned meant to be judged to condemnation in hell.) Here is more. " So long as a man will not give heed to the commandments, he must abide without salvation. A man is his own tormenter and his own condemner. Hence the saying, "They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone." The torment of the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. So is the torment of man." "Hear it all ye ends of the earth--all ye sinners, repent! Repent! Turn to God, for your religion won't save you, and you will be damned. I do not say how long, but those who sin against the Holy Ghost cannot be forgiven in this world or in the world to come; they shall die the second death. As they concoct scenes of bloodshed in this world, so they shall rise to that resurrection which is as the lake of fire and brimstone. Some shall rise to the everlasting burning of God, and some shall rise to the damnation of their own filthiness--as exquisite as the lake of fire and brimstone."
mfbukowski Posted January 22, 2020 Author Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sunslight said: Ah yes, by the time the King Fillet Sermon was given Joseph had a better grasp on salvation and the requirements accompanying the great plan. Earlier in his life he wasn't sure. What is apparent is that at the point of his death he had progressed back into a protestant style of teaching hellfire and damnation or glory and salvation, one on one and and the other on the other. Here are a few quotes from that sermon. "Hence the responsibility, the awful responsibility, that rests upon us in relation to our dead; for all the spirits who have not obeyed the gospel in the flesh must either obey it in the spirit or be damned." (Understand that Joseph's upbringing had him believing that to be damned meant to be judged to condemnation in hell.) Here is more. " So long as a man will not give heed to the commandments, he must abide without salvation. A man is his own tormenter and his own condemner. Hence the saying, "They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone." The torment of the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. So is the torment of man." "Hear it all ye ends of the earth--all ye sinners, repent! Repent! Turn to God, for your religion won't save you, and you will be damned. I do not say how long, but those who sin against the Holy Ghost cannot be forgiven in this world or in the world to come; they shall die the second death. As they concoct scenes of bloodshed in this world, so they shall rise to that resurrection which is as the lake of fire and brimstone. Some shall rise to the everlasting burning of God, and some shall rise to the damnation of their own filthiness--as exquisite as the lake of fire and brimstone." Three points, 3 errors in your interpretation. The point is that he CHANGED his understanding of what the word meant. You tacitly admit that by saying "by the time (of) the King Follett.... Joseph had a better grasp of salvation." Debate over. Read section 76. I will be brief. Paragraph 1. If they do not repent in the spirit, -after death- as if seeing the Sun and denying it, they would be sons of perdition. Yep damned forever. What you left out was repentance after death. P2. Talks about pain is spirit, nothing about damnation. Yes presumably they go to hell for a while, temporarily. God takes them behind the woodshed. 3. He says they will be "damned" but he "doesn't know for how long." Temporary hell right there in King Follett and your quote trying to disprove it. Then he switches to talking about the sons of Perdition and those who deny the Holy Ghost. Perhaps you need to read more carefully. Sometimes your own replies seem to contradict what you are trying to prove. Edited January 22, 2020 by mfbukowski 1
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