'Damned' Vs 'Dammed'- Anyone Have a Dictionary?

[mfbukowski]

43 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Oh-oh. You did it.You apparently do not realize that the three kingdoms of glory are not about the afterlife, but about the phases of earth's timetable prior to all the children of God being designated as damned or saved in the final judgement, and that Joseph misinterpreted his vision.

Is that what he is saying?

Absurd.

Who even cares about that and why is it important?

That has about as much to do with salvation as Star Wars.

I didn't know that God was in the science-fiction business.

[Sunslight]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I really wish you would stop avoiding my questions because I am interested in dialogue.  But you are making it impossible.

The definition of damnation?  The scriptures are not a dictionary. You  won’t find your definition in there either.  Look at a Latin dictionary, in the other hand, and you will find this definition for damnation.

 

The scriptures do define damnation though. This Scripture is a pretty straight forward definition.

Mosiah 16:11

11 If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation-

 

[Sunslight]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Easy.

Section 76

They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
            33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
            34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
            35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
            36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
            37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;
            38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.
            39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.
            40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us

I'm not seeing your point.

[Sunslight]

53 minutes ago, CV75 said:

But one can be somewhat clean and somewhat filthy, or a little, or a lot. One can be saved from hell eternally -- somewhat, or a little, or a lot, or completely. And one can be incompletely spotless or incompletely soiled as well as completely. Of course God can give His worst (there is no worse) and His best (there is no better), as well as whatever portion of either we choose to receive from Him.

Find the doctrine in the Book of Mormon for me that teaches this philosophy.

[Navidad]

I have enjoyed and learned from your discussion amongst yourselves.  I have had LDS friends, including the bishopric of our ward (in their fifth Sunday teaching) hint that they think that members of the church don't talk enough about grace. . . that there is a sense among members that non-LDS Christians' salvation is too easy. Therefore there is a reticence to speak about salvation being a gift - through grace. It seems like in this discussion you have been focusing in almost an Old Testament manner on law. Obedience to the law cleanses or purifies. I didn't realize that the soteriology of the LDS church is so law-driven and counts on the repentant one actually becoming clean (righteous) through conformity to what I guess is obedience to a new law. I guess I have a Romans 5 focus where the focus is on an understanding that we are "declared" righteous through the shed blood of Christ and that then we can have peace with God. Peace with God is not something I hear a lot about on this forum or in the ward. Folks seem stressed about their exaltation. That is just an observation. In no way is it meant to be a criticism. Romans tells us we are justified (declared righteous) by His blood, not by our actions (a few verses later in Romans 5).  We really do have a different soteriology, especially in terms of process. That isn't a bad thing; just an observation! 

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Obedience to the law cleanses or purifies. I didn't realize that the soteriology of the LDS church is so law-driven and counts on the repentant one actually becoming clean (righteous) through conformity to what I guess is obedience to a new law

Grace and mercy come when accepting Christ.  Mercy of God satisfies justice.  Justice must be given to all, including those who refuse grace.  It is not one or the other.  For those who stand with Christ through his grace, justice is accessed through Christ and his suffering for us.

My POV is three groups, one is unrepentant and rejecting all access to God's grace in full rebellion, refuse to accept Christ as their Lord even while knowing he is having once understood and accepted him as such:  sons of perdition

Two are those who choose righteousness out of love for God:  they receive and accept God's grace.  They may or may not accept further blessings leading to a total oneness with God in exaltation.

Third group suffer for their own sins because they refuse the gift of the Atonement.  By suffering they pay the debt of their sin and choose to put sin behind them, thus allowing them access to a Kingdom of Glory through some acceptance/acknowledge of Christ as Lord.  Grace may apply in some fashion here, but seems to be different in my view from those who accept it as a gift out of love (think of exconvicts whose records are cleared by hard labour and jail time who get out and want to live freely, but don't want to associate with the greater community because that requires friendship and love...they may be purged of selfishness as in acts intentionally harming others for their own good, but are still self centered as in they don't value others as themselves).

added:  

Quote

Folks seem stressed about their exaltation

Some may be.  Others may appear to be because only part of their outlook is being shared.  You should never confused what you read in posts here as the whole story, especially discussion between members where we may not say something important because we believe that point is agreed upon between us members (and it may or may not be).

Edited January 20, 2020 by Calm

[CV75]

41 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

Find the doctrine in the Book of Mormon for me that teaches this philosophy.

Alma 12: 9-11: “And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him. And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full. And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.”

The conjunction “until” means “up to”, as in “up to knowing all” or “up to knowing nothing” of God’s mysteries in a progressive or deteriorating fashion respectively. Stating the philosophy in this way recognizes there is a gradient between the extreme potentials, to greater and lesser extents, according to one’s druthers to know.

[CV75]

46 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Is that what he is saying?

Absurd.

Who even cares about that and why is it important?

That has about as much to do with salvation as Star Wars.

I didn't know that God was in the science-fiction business.

I've heard this before, where the temple ceremony and D&C 76 "in reality" refer to the three phases of the Lord preparing His children on earth prior to dividing the "sheep" from the "goats," the saved from damned, those destined for Heaven from the sons of Perdition, etc.... and not to symbolic stages of spiritual progress or kingdoms of glory.

[Sunslight]

37 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Alma 12: 9-11: “And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him. And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full. And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.”

The conjunction “until” means “up to”, as in “up to knowing all” or “up to knowing nothing” of God’s mysteries in a progressive or deteriorating fashion respectively. Stating the philosophy in this way recognizes there is a gradient between the extreme potentials, to greater and lesser extents, according to one’s druthers to know.

How would a person ever know if the scriptures were referring to damnation in hell or Damnation in the celestial kingdom or anything between? That's sounds really confusing.

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

How would a person ever know if the scriptures were referring to damnation in hell or Damnation in the celestial kingdom or anything between? That's sounds really confusing.

Christ taught things would not always be clear to us mortals, did he not?  Time and season, people had to be prepared and willing to hear.  Even when he was there to speak with them one on one without having to read words on paper and fill in the missing gaps somehow, his disciples still misunderstood him.  And in the end, it wasn't studying scripture that gave them knowledge, but the Spirit.

Why do you think we should be less confused than they were?

Those who want to understand need to keep going to God for revelation.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Calm

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Grace and mercy come when accepting Christ.  Mercy of God satisfies justice.  Justice must be given to all, including those who refuse grace.  It is not one or the other.  For those who stand with Christ through his grace, justice is accessed through Christ and his suffering for us.

My POV is three groups, one is unrepentant and rejecting all access to God's grace in full rebellion, refuse to accept Christ as their Lord even while knowing he is having once understood and accepted him as such:  sons of perdition

Two are those who choose righteousness out of love for God:  they receive and accept God's grace.  They may or may not accept further blessings leading to a total oneness with God in exaltation.

Third group suffer for their own sins because they refuse the gift of the Atonement.  By suffering they pay the debt of their sin and choose to put sin behind them, thus allowing them access to a Kingdom of Glory through some acceptance/acknowledge of Christ as Lord.  Grace may apply in some fashion here, but seems to be different in my view from those who accept it as a gift out of love (think of exconvicts whose records are cleared by hard labour and jail time who get out and want to live freely, but don't want to associate with the greater community because that requires friendship and love...they may be purged of selfishness as in acts intentionally harming others for their own good, but are still self centered as in they don't value others as themselves).

added:  

Some may be.  Others may appear to be because only part of their outlook is being shared.  You should never confused what you read in posts here as the whole story, especially discussion between members where we may not say something important because we believe that point is agreed upon between us members (and it may or may not be).

Thanks. Yesterday in Gospel Doctrine Class we had a very large group, many who came from afar for Saturday's funeral. We had a wonderful discussion about the tree of life, the path, river, and rod of iron. We discussed who was in the building and what the make-up was of the three groups on the path. The folks agreed that the tree of life represented Christ and the atonement. The teacher commented that those on the path who got to the tree and ate did so via their faithfulness to their covenants and the ordinances which combined represent the iron rod. I asked what the class thought about whether or not there would be non-LDS Christians in the third group. Based on what I had read in this forum about their being no ordinances required for the telestial or terrestrial kingdoms, I asked if perhaps the tree of life could refer to the celestial kingdom since the teacher said doing ordinances was one of the parts of clinging to the iron rod to get to the tree and eat of the fruit. The teacher and the folks agreed that no, the tree does not represent the celestial kingdom, it represents Christ and his atonement. I was a bit confused about the ordinance part then, but I didn't ask anything else. The other thing that interested me was the folks who mentioned about CS Lewis' use of the tree of life imagery in the Narnia Chronicles and how that drove them to study the tree of life in the book of Revelation. I didn't expect to hear the writings of the good Anglican C. S. Lewis mentioned in our gospel doctrine class. I enjoyed the whole discussion. I still wonder that if the teacher was right about the ordinances then the tree might represent the Celestial Kingdom, but I know what I wonder about isn't important to anyone but me, especially if the meaning of the tree is settled doctrine! 🤔

[Calm]

34 minutes ago, Navidad said:

especially if the meaning of the tree is settled doctrine! 🤔

Symbols are never "settled" imo, revelation uses them as keys to unlock new understanding, so as long as there is new revelation, there would be potentially new meanings applied to symbols.

Here are some approaches to the Tree of Life vision.  Oops left out link:

https://byustudies.byu.edu/lessons/3-vision-tree-life

Edited January 21, 2020 by Calm

[Sunslight]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Christ taught things would not always be clear to us mortals, did he not?  Time and season, people had to be prepared and willing to hear.  Even when he was there to speak with them one on one without having to read words on paper and fill in the missing gaps somehow, his disciples still misunderstood him.  And in the end, it wasn't studying scripture that gave them knowledge, but the Spirit.

Why do you think we should be less confused than they were?

Those who want to understand need to keep going to God for revelation.

I understand it well, it's others that seem to not understand. Scriptures are pretty simple.

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

I understand it well, it's others that seem to not understand. Scriptures are pretty simple.

And you know you are right and fully understand how?

[Sunslight]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

And you know you are right and fully understand how?

Because the Book of Mormon is simple to understand.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Sunslight said:

I'm not seeing your point.

I know, that's the problem.

[Sunslight]

5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I know, that's the problem.

What was your angle? The verses seemed vague to the discussion.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

I have enjoyed and learned from your discussion amongst yourselves.  I have had LDS friends, including the bishopric of our ward (in their fifth Sunday teaching) hint that they think that members of the church don't talk enough about grace. . . that there is a sense among members that non-LDS Christians' salvation is too easy. Therefore there is a reticence to speak about salvation being a gift - through grace. It seems like in this discussion you have been focusing in almost an Old Testament manner on law. Obedience to the law cleanses or purifies. I didn't realize that the soteriology of the LDS church is so law-driven and counts on the repentant one actually becoming clean (righteous) through conformity to what I guess is obedience to a new law. I guess I have a Romans 5 focus where the focus is on an understanding that we are "declared" righteous through the shed blood of Christ and that then we can have peace with God. Peace with God is not something I hear a lot about on this forum or in the ward. Folks seem stressed about their exaltation. That is just an observation. In no way is it meant to be a criticism. Romans tells us we are justified (declared righteous) by His blood, not by our actions (a few verses later in Romans 5).  We really do have a different soteriology, especially in terms of process. That isn't a bad thing; just an observation! 

Yes, that is what all Protestants tell us, pretty much.

We really ARE different, which is why you are instinctively uncomfortable and find us "uppity"

We are saved by grace AFTER ALL WE CAN DO, and that seems a lot less than what others do

See the advantages of actually studying the doctrine?  It's not about feeling friendly and social toward us it's about understanding what we actually believe.

To receive all the ordinances necessary to reach exaltation one must really be a member.  In other words, it may appear to others that one is not doing "all one can do", in being a member, or in taking on what we consider to be a higher path than the bare minimum necessary to end up in a lower Kingdom.

I hope that has been helpful.

Have you noticed that we tend to go after those who are "less active"to make them more active? why.

Yes activity does mean more salads but it also means evidence of spiritual progression.  Again now I am speaking strictly about the way other people see it not the way the Lord sees it, or what is true about the individual's actual spiritual progress.

People are going to be people.

 

Edited January 21, 2020 by mfbukowski

[pogi]

4 hours ago, Sunslight said:

The scriptures do define damnation though. This Scripture is a pretty straight forward definition.

Mosiah 16:11

11 If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation-

 

I’m done until you answer my questions

[Sunslight]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

I’m done until you answer my questions

I thought I did answer. My understanding is that repentance and baptism is required for all three glories.

[mfbukowski]

39 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

What was your angle? The verses seemed vague to the discussion.

Verse 36- 40. The only ones who damned themselves forever are the sons of perdition. Everyone else is resurrected and receives a realm of Glory.

[pogi]

39 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

I thought I did answer. My understanding is that repentance and baptism is required for all three glories.

I asked;

“What would keep a person out of terrestrial glory if they were perfectly spotless and cleanfrom all transgression of the laws we have been given through repentance, baptism, and perfectreconciliation with all law given?  What would keep them out of the celestial, for that matter?”

I also asked you if it is your position that every soul on earth will be baptized.

[Sunslight]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Verse 36- 40. The only ones who damned themselves forever are the sons of perdition. Everyone else is resurrected and receives a realm of Glory.

Oh yeah. They are the only ones who suffer eternal damnation, everyone else is saved.

[Sunslight]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I asked;

“What would keep a person out of terrestrial glory if they were perfectly spotless and cleanfrom all transgression of the laws we have been given through repentance, baptism, and perfectreconciliation with all law given?  What would keep them out of the celestial, for that matter?”

I also asked you if it is your position that every soul on earth will be baptized.

All we know for sure is that baptism is essential to be saved from hell. There will be those who aren't baptized, they will be eternally damned to hell.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Sunslight said:

All we know for sure is that baptism is essential to be saved from hell. There will be those who aren't baptized, they will be eternally damned to hell.

But you just admitted that only the sons of perdition will be damned forever, and they go to outer darkness- hell itself is a temporary state. 

Section 76 regarding telestial kingdom:

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.
            82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.
            83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.
            84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.
            85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

""86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

87 And the terrestrial through the ^aministration of the celestial.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ^aministering spirits for them; for they shall be ^bheirs of salvation.""

Edited January 21, 2020 by mfbukowski