Ahab Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, Navidad said: Ditto to everything you said. So I think what we have here are 2 people who prefer to live their life how they think is best according to their understanding of God's will as revealed through prophets and apostles and the power of the Holy Spirit, with both thinking their way is better than the other. We'll see who gets the best rewards in the end. The apostle Paul compared this to a race and I think at this point I am currently ahead of you, but who knows maybe you'll surprise me and catch up and we'll both end up at the finish line together.
Sunslight Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Ahab said: Joseph Fielding Smith Will those who enter the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms have to have the ordinance of baptism? No! Baptism is the door into the celestial kingdom. The Lord made this clear to Nicodemus. We are not preaching a salvation for the inhabitants of the terrestrial or the telestial kingdoms. All of the ordinances of the gospel pertain to the celestial kingdom, and what the Lord will require by way of ordinances, if any, in the other kingdoms he has not revealed. (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:329) The First Presidency have said in answer to a similar question: "We know of no ordinances pertaining to the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom. All of the ordinances of the gospel are given for the salvation of men in the celestial kingdom and pertain unto that kingdom." (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:330) http://emp.byui.edu/SatterfieldB/Quotes/Terrestrial.htm The scriptures must always trump opinions of men. If man is saved he is saved from hell and if from hell then how? Through repentance and baptism.
Sunslight Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 8 minutes ago, Navidad said: Do angels have bodies in LDS thinking? Angels are seen as either a spirit or an embodied soul.
Ahab Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, Sunslight said: The scriptures must always trump opinions of men. If man is saved he is saved from hell and if from hell then how? Through repentance and baptism. We call them men when we don't believe they were speaking as prophets, but sometimes they speak as prophets and we just don't believe it. And what is hell? I wouldn't be very happy if I ended up with only Telestial glory while I know of people who had received Celestial glory. Even Terrestrial glory wouldn't be as good, but at least it would be better than Telestial glory. When I think of being saved I use an analogy of winning an event in the Olympics. Finishing 3rd is pretty good, finishing 2nd is even better, but the real winners, in my perspective, are the ones who come in 1st place. And I think all of the rest are losers. 1
Navidad Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 33 minutes ago, Sunslight said: Everyone who ends up savef will receive a baptism by proper authority. It's not an issue. Thanks, but I am talking about right here - here and now, those of us who have received baptism by a proper authority in our own church - a place where no LDS priesthood holder may baptize. Not at some point in the future spirit world, a place of untold mysteries about which we cannot be sure. In your view have I never repented? If that is the case, how can I be considered a Christian - today in the here and now?
bluebell Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 34 minutes ago, Sunslight said: Christ teaches that all of the saved receive eternal life. 27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father; 28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. From the D&C section 29. Do you suppose Christ left out a group here? I don’t believe Christ is teaching what you believe he is teaching here. Mostly concerning who the righteous is that he is speaking about.
Navidad Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 35 minutes ago, Ahab said: Joseph Fielding Smith Will those who enter the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms have to have the ordinance of baptism? No! Baptism is the door into the celestial kingdom. The Lord made this clear to Nicodemus. We are not preaching a salvation for the inhabitants of the terrestrial or the telestial kingdoms. All of the ordinances of the gospel pertain to the celestial kingdom, and what the Lord will require by way of ordinances, if any, in the other kingdoms he has not revealed. (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:329) The First Presidency have said in answer to a similar question: "We know of no ordinances pertaining to the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom. All of the ordinances of the gospel are given for the salvation of men in the celestial kingdom and pertain unto that kingdom." (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:330) http://emp.byui.edu/SatterfieldB/Quotes/Terrestrial.htm Thanks for this. See you are helping me learn! 🙂
Ahab Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 41 minutes ago, Sunslight said: Christ teaches that all of the saved receive eternal life. 27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father; 28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. From the D&C section 29. Do you suppose Christ left out a group here? I interpret the use of the word "unto" to mean they may someday receive eternal life, rather than thinking that all of those on the right hand will immediately receive it. Which means that even though there will be 3 categories of those who are saved, placed in 1st and 2nd and 3rd place positions, all of those may someday receive eternal life as they progress throughout eternity. We're told that the Celestial will minister to the Terrestrial and the Terrestrial will minister to the Telestial, so there must be some good purpose for all of that ministering.
CV75 Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Physical ailments and pain can also be seen as a temporary form of hell. I think about Calm, and what she goes through. In building a coherent Paradigm about anything one must not just throw out a definition here or there. It's like a game of Jenga. You just randomly pick a block to pull out and suddenly the whole Tower Falls No we need to keep our definition of temporary hell. It is crucial to the whole doctrine of Eternal progression. We just need to know that we do have a unique definition. That's okay. We have a whole bunch of those anyway. I'll be damned if it ain't so! 1
Ahab Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 7 minutes ago, Navidad said: Thanks for this. See you are helping me learn! 🙂 Lots of good quotes in that link I provided. I hope you will read them all.
pogi Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 31 minutes ago, Sunslight said: Christ teaches that all of the saved receive eternal life. Saved has many different meanings. 56 minutes ago, Sunslight said: Except that if we truly understand the doctrine of Christ then we know unless a man is born again of the spirit through baptism he must be condemned to hell. That doctrine of Christ is firmly established in all of our canon. Can one be thrust down to hell and still be saved? Yep. Quote D&C76 81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament. 82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus. 83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit. 84 These are they who are thrust down to hell. 85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work. 86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial; 87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial. 88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation. 89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding; Clearly, one need not receive the gospel, repent, or be baptized to be an heir of salvation. 2
CV75 Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Sunslight said: I guess one would have to show how Joseph Smith wrote Scripture with a different meaning than judgment to hell if one were to believe. Even modern prophets use the same scriptures Joseph translated and wrote through revelation. Is it possible to prove without doubt that damnation means to be stopped in one's progress? I think he did mean "judgement to hell" in different ways; his (and our) understanding has changed over time as far as I can tell. Did Joseph write scripture or did the Holy Ghost? Does scripture as written take on deeper meaning as the Holy Ghost inspires the reader/prophet? Does the Holy Ghost come up with new scripture? I think it is possible to prove without doubt (for me, anyway) "that damnation means to be stopped in one's progress" and a number of other things, including "judgement to hell." I cite the content of this thread as evidence of that.
Sunslight Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 34 minutes ago, bluebell said: I don’t believe Christ is teaching what you believe he is teaching here. Mostly concerning who the righteous is that he is speaking about. Well, hum.. There is only righteous or Wicked in the end right?
The Nehor Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 53 minutes ago, Navidad said: Thanks, but I am talking about right here - here and now, those of us who have received baptism by a proper authority in our own church - a place where no LDS priesthood holder may baptize. Not at some point in the future spirit world, a place of untold mysteries about which we cannot be sure. In your view have I never repented? If that is the case, how can I be considered a Christian - today in the here and now? Because you follow Christ? It just will not give you a fullness of salvation. 2
Ahab Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 35 minutes ago, pogi said: Saved has many different meanings. Can one be thrust down to hell and still be saved? Yep. Clearly, one need not receive the gospel, repent, or be baptized to be an heir of salvation. We're still planning to do all of the ordinances for everybody who hasn't received them, though, right? Just in case they may someday qualify for Celestial glory? I think some people just take longer than others to learn all they need to know and do to qualify for Celestial glory, but since we have all of eternity there really is no big rush for people who aren't in a big hurry. Some just aren't as hungry for righteousness as some others, but who knows, maybe the best barbeque will come from people with only Telestial glory. Not much on gospel knowledge but really good at something else, probably.
Navidad Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 34 minutes ago, Ahab said: So I think what we have here are 2 people who prefer to live their life how they think is best according to their understanding of God's will as revealed through prophets and apostles and the power of the Holy Spirit, with both thinking their way is better than the other. We'll see who gets the best rewards in the end. The apostle Paul compared this to a race and I think at this point I am currently ahead of you, but who knows maybe you'll surprise me and catch up and we'll both end up at the finish line together. I like this except I have never said and don't think that my way is "better" than yours. I simply disagree that the LDS is God's only church and that only LDS priesthood holders can administer ordinances. I also don't think either of us has the "only" way, especially on the essentials of salvation. I think you are a Christian and will enjoy all the benefits of eternal life with God the father and Jesus Christ. And it has nothing to do with you being LDS - that is completely irrelevant. It is because of what I see in your commitment to Christ - not different that what I might see in a dedicated Methodist, Pentecostal, or Catholic. I think you are the only one of the two of us who thinks his way is the only way! 😃
bluebell Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 17 minutes ago, Sunslight said: Well, hum.. There is only righteous or Wicked in the end right? It is who is considered to be righteous and who is considered to be wicked that we are discussing. You seem to be saying (and I apologize if i'm misunderstanding you) that only the sons of perdition are considered to be wicked; everyone else is righteous. I disagree. In the Guide to the Scriptures it outlines that only those who are "just, holy, virtuous, upright; acting in obedience to God’s commands; avoiding sin" are considered righteous. Likewise, in the Guide to the Scriptures, eternal life is defined as living with God in eternal families. Those who receive the terrestial and telestial kingdoms do not have eternal life according to our doctrine. They are saved from hell, but they are not joint heirs with Christ. They are denied (or rather, they have chosen not to partake of) certain blessings, progressing to become as God is through the Atonement of Christ being one of them.
pogi Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 29 minutes ago, Sunslight said: Well, hum.. There is only righteous or Wicked in the end right? There are different "degrees". It's not all black and white. 3
pogi Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 13 minutes ago, Ahab said: ...but since we have all of eternity there really is no big rush for people who aren't in a big hurry. I believe in progression within kingdoms, not between kingdoms. Final judgment, is final, in my understanding. We can't be re-resurrected from a telestial body, to a terrestrial body, and then again to a celestial body... 1
Ahab Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 Just now, Navidad said: I like this except I have never said and don't think that my way is "better" than yours. I simply disagree that the LDS is God's only church and that only LDS priesthood holders can administer ordinances. I also don't think either of us has the "only" way, especially on the essentials of salvation. I think you are a Christian and will enjoy all the benefits of eternal life with God the father and Jesus Christ. And it has nothing to do with you being LDS - that is completely irrelevant. It is because of what I see in your commitment to Christ - not different that what I might see in a dedicated Methodist, Pentecostal, or Catholic. I think you are the only one of the two of us who thinks his way is the only way! 😃 See this is why I think I am ahead of you on gospel knowledge. Being a member of the true church of Jesus Christ really is important, even though you don't seem to think so. And all of the ordinances are important, starting with the one that people get to become a member of the one and only true church of Christ and then on to all of the others that are available in the true church that are administered by men and women who have the authority of God to administer those ordinances. What looks like a duck and quacks like a duck isn't necessarily a real or living duck. There is only one way and I have found it. His way. The way he has established with his authorized servants doing what he wants his servants to do. I do like you and I think you are a very nice person but you still have a lot to learn, a lot of basics, and until then you will be a nice man who hasn't caught on yet. I don't want to be pushy but those are the facts and the truth... and I will say "in my perspective" now so that I won't sound too "preachy" or pushy and like everyone else who is simply expressing my "opinion".
Ahab Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 5 minutes ago, pogi said: I believe in progression within kingdoms, not between kingdoms. Final judgment, is final, in my understanding. We can't be re-resurrected from a telestial body, to a terrestrial body, and then again to a celestial body... Glory is all about intelligence. We're all going to have perfect resurrected bodies. The thing that will distinguish us is our level of intelligence. How "bright" we are. How much "light and truth" we have. But think what you want. I don't want to appear as being too pushy.
mfbukowski Posted January 17, 2020 Author Posted January 17, 2020 2 hours ago, bluebell said: When I have heard someone teach the "dammed" homonym, those people still knew that damned in the scriptures didn't actually mean stopping spiritual progression. Probably not, since their doctrine about the next life and what eternal life is hugely different than ours. Ok so I guess we are agreed in all aspects. Our definition is different than theirs. 1
mfbukowski Posted January 17, 2020 Author Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Sunslight said: Except that if we truly understand the doctrine of Christ then we know unless a man is born again of the spirit through baptism he must be condemned to hell. That doctrine of Christ is firmly established in all of our canon. Fine I can accept that phraseology!! What appears you are not understanding is that that hell to which he is condemned is only temporary until he gets baptized. We call it Spirit prison. And of course that includes the possibility of being baptized after he has passed and is a temple ordinance. You see, that's the exact phraseology that is confused and confuses other people. Semantic confusion is the Bugaboo of all communication. Praise Wittgenstein! Edited January 17, 2020 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted January 17, 2020 Author Posted January 17, 2020 9 minutes ago, Ahab said: Glory is all about intelligence. We're all going to have perfect resurrected bodies. The thing that will distinguish us is our level of intelligence. How "bright" we are. How much "light and truth" we have. But think what you want. I don't want to appear as being too pushy. First Corinthians what? 45? The bodies are as different as the glory of the sun and moon and stars. They are different bodies. Bodies terrestrial, bodies celestial. 1
bluebell Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Fine I can accept that phraseology!! What appears you are not understanding is that that hell to which he is condemned is only temporary until he gets baptized. We call it Spirit prison. And of course that includes the possibility of being baptized after he has passed and is a temple ordinance. You see, that's the exact phraseology that is confused and confuses other people. Semantic confusion is the Bugaboo of all communication. Praise Wittgenstein! I didn't realize until today that our doctrine (at least as it was taught by Joseph F. Smith--if i'm remembering which Smith it was correctly--teaches that none of the ordinances, including baptism, is necessary to receive the lesser degrees of glory. Baptism is only necessary to receive the Celestial kingdom. News to me!
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