'Damned' Vs 'Dammed'- Anyone Have a Dictionary?

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

So, are you damned right now? Are we all damned right now? We aren't exalted yet, so, does this mean we are damned until we get to be exalted?

In the scriptures damnation refers to a specific type of condemnation that comes upon the wicked and unrepentant. 

 

Did you read the conference talk that I linked to?  The answer to whether or not we are saved right now is in there.

I have suggested that the short answer to the question of whether a faithful member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been saved or born again must be a fervent “yes.” Our covenant relationship with our Savior puts us in that “saved” or “born again” condition meant by those who ask this question. Some modern prophets have also used “salvation” or “saved” in that same present sense. President Brigham Young declared:

“It is present salvation and the present influence of the Holy Ghost that we need every day to keep us on saving ground. …

Quote

In the doctrine regarding the plan of redemption being "saved" always refers to being saved from the awful death and hell that awaits the wicked.

And in the doctrine regarding eternal life, being saved refers to being exalted.  Like Elder Oaks teaches, there are multiple valid definitions of salvation.

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Hi: First of all welcome to the forum. When you say "all those who repent." What is it that they are repenting from? You also say "Not all will choose to repent . . . " Same question . . . from what are they choosing not to repent? Just seeking to understand what you are saying. Thanks.

Just trying to get a sample of what different people believe?  I'll add my understanding as well so you can compare the two responses to see if you can see any differences or additional details to what you already understand.

Repentance is all about changing directions, going from going away from God and his teachings to instead going toward him and his counsel.  Apostasy would be the opposite, going from going toward God and his teachings to instead going away from him and his teachings.

Those are the definitions but as you can probably see that doesn't say much about which direction is toward God and which direction is away from God.  We can say that going toward God and his teachings is to be going in the right direction, toward God, but how are we, how is anybody, supposed to know which way is right and which way is wrong?  Who should we look to for directions?  And even if we have the right directions, how are we supposed to know those are right?  Who are we learning from?  Who are we supposed to learn from?  This is where the light of Christ and the Holy Ghost are introduced or at least talked about if we already know what and who those things and that person is.  But as far as definitions go, repentance is simply about changing from going away from God and instead going toward him and his teachings.

Good luck trying to find the right way.  May the Force be with you.  God will help you if you ask for his help and rely on him for his guidance.  Apart from that what else can I tell you?  You don't really want to learn from me, and I don't blame you for that.  We're supposed to follow God and to know God we each need to get to know him, personally, rather than rely on other people to tell us which way is right and which way is wrong.  Or at least that is what I believe about how all of this is supposed to work.

[Sunslight]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

...and then there is also a partial, yet permanent (degree of) damnation. The spirit prison "dams" the progress of condemned spirits until they repent (which is therefore a only temporary damming); the resurrection dams the progress of souls unto further repentance (which is therefore a permanent, but not necessarily an eternal degree of, damming (perdition)--though "eternal" in that exaltation is withheld). The first instance may be considered to be punitive unto rehabilitation ("endless punishment, for Endless is my name", D&C 19:10); the second simply restorative according to one's comfort level, which is the "proper order" (Alma 41:2) of agency.

The definition of "progress" is "gradual betterment. Our prison systems are set up to both separate the unrighteous as well as a place of reformation. Our Heavenly Father prepared the spirit prison as a place of reformation so that they can progress and overcome sin and follow Christ. So, I'm not sure it is accurate to state that a person's progress is stopped or "dammed".

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

Choosing not to repent means one remains filthy and remains in their wicked and evil ways.

For Perdition, I agree.  But how would you describe those in the Telestial Kingdom who do not repent (accept God's grace) but are still purified by their own suffering so that they may dwell in a Kingdom of Glory (which means no sin exists there in my understanding).  For me, repentance is more than just stopping the act of sin, it is turning from it and accepting the Lord's offer to replace sin with goodness.

I believe eternally speaking, one can be both sinless (no desire to sin), but also goodless (no desire to be good...autocorrect wanted to change that to "godless", probably appropriate to do so as Telestials may not desire God in their lives, though I assume there may be levels/variations where some do good because it is easiest for them, not because they desire good).  

[Sunslight]

34 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Did you read the conference talk that I linked to?  The answer to whether or not we are saved right now is in there.

I have suggested that the short answer to the question of whether a faithful member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been saved or born again must be a fervent “yes.” Our covenant relationship with our Savior puts us in that “saved” or “born again” condition meant by those who ask this question. Some modern prophets have also used “salvation” or “saved” in that same present sense. President Brigham Young declared:

“It is present salvation and the present influence of the Holy Ghost that we need every day to keep us on saving ground. …

And in the doctrine regarding eternal life, being saved refers to being exalted.  Like Elder Oaks teaches, there are multiple valid definitions of salvation.

In general, being saved means being saved from hell. Eternal life goes to all of the saved. It's either the way of eternal life or Eternal Death. 

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

So, I'm not sure it is accurate to state that a person's progress is stopped or "dammed".

Stopped in place and frozen, likely not imo.  But it would seem likely there are limits to how far they can progress without access to certain ordinances as well as blessings from God needed to progress, blessings that someone who is not yet accepting God's full Atonement is unable to receive (similar perhaps to how someone with just basic reading skills can't access the full benefits of a library, but is limited to learning from pictures or very simple texts; until they are willing to accept instruction from others better at reading, they are limited in knowledge).

[Sunslight]

48 minutes ago, Calm said:

For Perdition, I agree.  But how would you describe those in the Telestial Kingdom who do not repent (accept God's grace) but are still purified by their own suffering so that they may dwell in a Kingdom of Glory (which means no sin exists there in my understanding).  For me, repentance is more than just stopping the act of sin, it is turning from it and accepting the Lord's offer to replace sin with goodness.

I believe eternally speaking, one can be both sinless (no desire to sin), but also goodless (no desire to be good...autocorrect wanted to change that to "godless", probably appropriate to do so as Telestials may not desire God in their lives, though I assume there may be levels/variations where some do good because it is easiest for them, not because they desire good).  

No one is purified through their own suffering. Only through Christ can we be purified. That happens through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

[Sunslight]

35 minutes ago, Calm said:

Stopped in place and frozen, likely not imo.  But it would seem likely there are limits to how far they can progress without access to certain ordinances as well as blessings from God needed to progress, blessings that someone who is not yet accepting God's full Atonement is unable to receive (similar perhaps to how someone with just basic reading skills can't access the full benefits of a library, but is limited to learning from pictures or very simple texts; until they are willing to accept instruction from others better at reading, they are limited in knowledge).

I would say in some respects they are limited but a limit does not mean damnation. Otherwise one could argue a handicapped person is damned because they are limited.

[Calm]

51 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

No one is purified through their own suffering. Only through Christ can we be purified. That happens through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

Yes, I need to find a better word for what suffering for our own sins accomplish (purge perhaps).  Do you agree that no sin can exist in a Kingdom of glory?

[Calm]

51 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

I would say in some respects they are limited but a limit does not mean damnation. Otherwise one could argue a handicapped person is damned because they are limited.

Yep.

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

 You are a very nice person and I do enjoy sharing my understanding of the gospel with you.  And I can also probably learn a thing or two from you, such as how to be such a nice person even in the face of conflict, maybe. I'll try to avoid vain repetition because I don't think that will do either one of us any good and instead will just respond if you ask me for more clarification, or if I see you are trying to understand something that I think I can maybe help you to understand.  I think one of the problems with trying to teach other people is that the people who teach often want to see results happening quickly, so that if no results seem to be visible, the one who is trying to teach simply moves on to others who maybe will accept those teachings more quickly.  I do think trying to teach others is important,  but timing is important, too. So while you may catch on and start believing as I do, someday, maybe, I don't see that happening in the near future, if ever. So for me you will be more practice to help me develop more patience with people as I desire to teach what I believe and what God has told me is true.  Hopefully I'll serve some useful purpose for you, too, even if you never agree or choose to accept my beliefs.  I have progressed quite a bit from how I was in earlier years.  My Dad and my Granddad were both preachers/ministers in their church and for quite a while I wanted to be just like them, openly sharing my beliefs with others while being focused on trying to get them to believe as I do.  I've got more of a live and let live approach now than I did then but sometimes I still enjoy "preaching" and it seems to come naturally, without much if any effort.

Anyway, I do hope the best for you and I'll try to help you as well as I can while trying to avoid being pushy.   The gospel is my favorite topic and I am glad to have the opportunity to share it with people, as I can, on this board.

Hi Ahab - Back from choir practice. Last night we took food to the family, tomorrow we help clean the chapel; Saturday is a funeral where we sing in the choir, help serve the family lunch, and clean up after, and then Sunday is . . . well Sunday! We stay busy in the ward and love doing so. I really appreciate your input. Perhaps I simply want to make one course correction in our dialogue. I am not looking to be taught as one who is seeking counsel, to make a change, or as one who is unhappy with my faith as it is. I am not seeking to understand LDS doctrine as a potential convert. My sense is that you have adopted a missionary approach to "teaching" me. Teach me about your faith so that I may learn for the sheer joy of learning; not as a potential convert. I have no interest in changing my church affiliation. After years of study of LDS history, a few years of adding doctrine to that menu, and faithfully attending the ward whenever the doors are open to the chapel, my wife and I have already decided that we are in the right place. There is no English speaking Mennonite church within 150 miles of here. My wife wants and needs to worship in an English environment. We acknowledge we will never belong in our ward as we would if we were members of the church. That is ok. We are where we believe God wants us to fellowship, worship, learn and once in a while to share. We have both given sacrament talks, testimonies, taught adult Gospel Doctrine class, and my wife is a substitute primary teacher. We love all that; but we are not candidates for conversion. We love our faith and our current relationship with the Lord. We are better people and have grown spiritually in the ward. Back in the 70's there was a popular concept in communication therapy known as transactional analysis or TA. It postulated that we communicate with others in three ways: that of the parent, the adult, and the child. Sometimes I feel you are responding to me parent to child. I don't mean that as a criticism, it is simply how I feel in reading your answers. That is similar to talking to someone as a missionary to an investigator. I am not an investigator in the typical sense any more than I am damned and not dammed (uh oh! here we go again). "Talk" to me as adult to adult. We each have our beliefs. We respect each other and certainly can learn from each other. I am certain I can learn from yo. I do genuinely want to learn. I have very high needs to know and understand. I am 71 years old and just started a university PhD program in Mexican History with a focus on religious history in Mexico. I may not live to finish it, but I am having a blast adding to my knowledge base. That is why I am on this forum. No other reason. I have been here for about two and a half years. Thanks for letting me clarify. You are a good man. Thank you for helping me learn more about the intricacies of the LDS faith. 

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

Just trying to get a sample of what different people believe?  I'll add my understanding as well so you can compare the two responses to see if you can see any differences or additional details to what you already understand.

Repentance is all about changing directions, going from going away from God and his teachings to instead going toward him and his counsel.  Apostasy would be the opposite, going from going toward God and his teachings to instead going away from him and his teachings.

Those are the definitions but as you can probably see that doesn't say much about which direction is toward God and which direction is away from God.  We can say that going toward God and his teachings is to be going in the right direction, toward God, but how are we, how is anybody, supposed to know which way is right and which way is wrong?  Who should we look to for directions?  And even if we have the right directions, how are we supposed to know those are right?  Who are we learning from?  Who are we supposed to learn from?  This is where the light of Christ and the Holy Ghost are introduced or at least talked about if we already know what and who those things and that person is.  But as far as definitions go, repentance is simply about changing from going away from God and instead going toward him and his teachings.

Good luck trying to find the right way.  May the Force be with you.  God will help you if you ask for his help and rely on him for his guidance.  Apart from that what else can I tell you?  You don't really want to learn from me, and I don't blame you for that.  We're supposed to follow God and to know God we each need to get to know him, personally, rather than rely on other people to tell us which way is right and which way is wrong.  Or at least that is what I believe about how all of this is supposed to work.

Please read the response I just posted. Again, I am not trying to find the right way; I am happy and blessed on the path I have been walking for sixty some years. I am trying to learn about LDS doctrine! I hope that helps. 

[The Nehor]

23 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

"In Doctrine and Covenants 132:4, the Lord stated that He was going to reveal “a” new and everlasting covenant and added, “If ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.”

So if there is no conflation, it DOES then say that if I was not sealed in the temple, I would burn in hell forever, right?

We cannot see it when it is right in front of us- we see our meaning regardless of what it says.

I realize I am way behind now but YES. I am saying those who are not sealed in the temple are damned though I would not use the "burn in hell" idiom so much as the separated from God definition. So both our progress stopped meaning and damned damned.

I see both meanings being met and I am not sure how this makes it deceptive?

Is this offensive to some? Sure, but when did that put us off?

Joseph Smith answering a group of questions:

"Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?"

"Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness."

Yes, our theology allows for most to escape the torments most call hell but the separation from God will continue to be a real thing in the lesser kingdoms of glory. Even that is not that unique. The idea of punishments and rewards fitted to individual merits was not strange to Dante or to Augustine's "gentle damnation" for unbaptized infants.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Sunslight said:

So, are you damned right now? Are we all damned right now? We aren't exalted yet, so, does this mean we are damned until we get to be exalted?

In the scriptures damnation refers to a specific type of condemnation that comes upon the wicked and unrepentant. 

In the doctrine regarding the plan of redemption being "saved" always refers to being saved from the awful death and hell that awaits the wicked.

Despite it sometimes feeling like it....no, I am not damned. My separation is not eternal as damnation usually means. I will return to the presence of God whether I like it or not at least temporarily. In the justice of God and through the atonement of Christ the Fall will be undone and I will be resurrected and go back into the presence of God where my own sins may make my visit a temporary one and if I am not able to bear it I suspect I will be glad the experience is over when I leave for my lesser glory. After that....yeah, I will be damned or exalted.

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, bluebell said:

You said "IF I understand [bluebell] correctly- that being "damned" always means "stopped in progression" as a river is, on a temporary basis."  

You haven't understood my correctly because none of my posts mentioned that being damned always meaning stopped in progression on a temporary basis.  

The definition that I have only ever heard used a few times is the one that you presented in the OP.  That damned means "stopping spiritual progression".

Thanks, that helps. 

So in your experience, it does NOT mean "condemned to hell" but simply  "stopping spiritual progession" neither necessarily on a permanent basis nor necessarily on a temporary basis, but it could be either.

Does that capture it?

It just means stopping spiritual progression, could be permanent or temporary.?

My point is that I don't think present day Christians understand it that way at all.

Thanks for your answer I really am trying to get to the bottom of this.

[Sunslight]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Yes, I need to find a better word for what suffering for our own sins accomplish (purge perhaps).  Do you agree that no sin can exist in a Kingdom of glory?

I believe no sin can exist if one is saved in kingdom of glory.

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

Yes, I need to find a better word for what suffering for our own sins accomplish (purge perhaps).  Do you agree that no sin can exist in a Kingdom of glory?

In what sense does a sin "exist"?

Is it like a wart or tumor? Do, say, immoral actions stamp themselves on the spirit like say The Scarlet Letter?

And then do they magically disappear when the repentance process is finished? How did they go out of existence through repentance.?

I have been using the word "cure" a lot lately for similar functions.

Edited January 17, 2020 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

My separation is not eternal as damnation usually means.

I rest my case.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I rest my case.

Not sure that evidence is conclusive of something different in our faith. Many Christian faiths posit a judgement before God and still hold their definition of damnation.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Sunslight said:

I believe no sin can exist if one is saved in kingdom of glory.

I agree.  

Logically if that is the end result, there must be a process of removing sin from those who do not accept the Atonement/Gospel process of repentance, but are not in rebellion against God in the sense of Perdition.  Suffering for their own sins---whatever that means---is likely this process.  They become sinless.  If "purify" is too strong of a word for their cleansing (sins removed, but not forgotten because they have not repented, thus they will bear the consequences whether temporarily as they pay the debt or balance their karma or whatever they do to become sinless or eternally as perhaps personality characteristics they nurtured in their wickedness, whatever they are), there is still some sort of cleansing from sin to the point no sin is left.  In that sense they are "pure" in my view and that is why I use "purify".  They are not sanctified however, which I see as filling with godliness.

I also understand not everyone sees the nuances of those terms in the same way, so don't always use them.

My view of what suffering for their sins will be something similar to an intimate experience of a repeat of their behaviour from the POV of those they caused pain contrasted to how life could have been without their sins, so they will know even better than their victims the consequences of their choices on others and how they harmed them and they experience every last feeling of suffering they put others through (an eye for an eye in essence at that point).  

Once they have experienced the same level of suffering, they no longer experience hell and now realizing consequences fully, no longer desire to sin knowing the cost will always outweigh the benefit to themselves.  If it is true there can be no sin, then it seems to me at that point no one destined for the Telestial will still revel in their past wickedness, but rather at least don't want others to suffer because of them, if only so they themselves avoid punishment.  They may not care enough about how they have harmed others to attempt restitution or feel remorse...thus no repentance.  Just a recognition it was wrong....but there may be good in them and so that might be the worst state while others actually care and feel remorse, but see accepting the Atonement as a cost rather than a blessing.  My belief is those that accept the Atonement even in some small way, even a small opening of themselves up willing to submit to the Lord will be seen as Terrestrial and likely imo will be able to progress through the eternities at least within the limits of the Terrestrial, opening themselves up more to God's love over time.

[Sunslight]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I agree.  

Logically if that is the end result, there must be a process of removing sin from those who do not accept the Atonement/Gospel process of repentance, but are not in rebellion against God in the sense of Perdition.  Suffering for their own sins---whatever that means---is likely this process.  They become sinless.  If "purify" is too strong of a word for their cleansing (sins removed, but not forgotten because they have not repented, thus they will bear the consequences whether temporarily as they pay the debt or balance their karma or whatever they do to become sinless or eternally as perhaps personality characteristics they nurtured in their wickedness, whatever they are), there is still some sort of cleansing from sin to the point no sin is left.  In that sense they are "pure" in my view and that is why I use "purify".  They are not sanctified however, which I see as filling with godliness.

I also understand not everyone sees the nuances of those terms in the same way, so don't always use them.

My view of what suffering for their sins will be something similar to an intimate experience of a repeat of their behaviour from the POV of those they caused pain contrasted to how life could have been without their sins, so they will know even better than their victims the consequences of their choices on others and how they harmed them and they experience every last feeling of suffering they put others through (an eye for an eye in essence at that point).  

Once they have experienced the same level of suffering, they no longer experience hell and now realizing consequences fully, no longer desire to sin knowing the cost will always outweigh the benefit to themselves.  If it is true there can be no sin, then it seems to me at that point no one destined for the Telestial will still revel in their past wickedness, but rather at least don't want others to suffer because of them, if only so they themselves avoid punishment.  They may not care enough about how they have harmed others to attempt restitution or feel remorse...thus no repentance.  Just a recognition it was wrong....but there may be good in them and so that might be the worst state while others actually care and feel remorse, but see accepting the Atonement as a cost rather than a blessing.  My belief is those that accept the Atonement even in some small way, even a small opening of themselves up willing to submit to the Lord will be seen as Terrestrial and likely imo will be able to progress through the eternities at least within the limits of the Terrestrial, opening themselves up more to God's love over time.

I believe everyone must be baptized to be cleansed and that is the only way a person can repent.

[Sunslight]

I think it would be good if the church could actually give some Scripture to back up our unique definition. I thin our critics/ other Christian religions might actually have the better hand than us on this specific topic.

[CV75]

13 hours ago, Sunslight said:

The definition of "progress" is "gradual betterment. Our prison systems are set up to both separate the unrighteous as well as a place of reformation. Our Heavenly Father prepared the spirit prison as a place of reformation so that they can progress and overcome sin and follow Christ. So, I'm not sure it is accurate to state that a person's progress is stopped or "dammed".

I’m not approaching this from the standpoint of “the” definition, as there are many. I am showing that both our mortal and spirit-world prison systems are environments of temporary limitations and controls ("dams") over agency (except in the cases of life terms, capital punishment or perdition which represent permanent "dams"). The faithful and the wicked go into the spirit world with the same breadth and depth of moral agency developed through mortal life, which represents degrees spiritual freedom for some and degrees of spiritual bondage for others. In addition, the bondage of not having a body is imposed upon us all. According to the Church website, “the spirits may progress as they learn gospel principles and live in accordance with them” -  “The spirit world is an active place where growth and progression are possible.” So the limitations may turn out to be temporary or permanent, depending on one’s choice to repent and progress.

[CV75]

5 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

I think it would be good if the church could actually give some Scripture to back up our unique definition. I thin our critics/ other Christian religions might actually have the better hand than us on this specific topic.

The "better hand" is only a matter of what one accepts as correct interpretation, which our faith acknowledges goes beyond mere text and into the realm of aligning prophetic and personal revelation. When critics and good-faith Christians also acknowledge this, I have found that there is no more reason to debate the point but rather to respect different conclusions.

[ERMD]

On 1/15/2020 at 2:24 AM, The Nehor said:

I have not heard this from a General Authority that I recall. I have heard it in ward and stake meetings. It probably started innocently enough with someone using the pronunciation similarity to make a comparison. Some started believing the words are etymologically connected. I have ever heard like in the OP that anyone thought dammed was the real meaning.

While the metaphor works it is incomplete. Hell is real and I think we soft pedal it too much and water it down. Spirit Prison is not just a holding pattern. It is also a place of sorrow and pain.

It's one of my favorite talks, but Elder Bednar uses it in "Things As They Really Are."

Satan does not have a body, and his eternal progress has been halted. Just as water flowing in a riverbed is stopped by a dam, so the adversary’s eternal progress is thwarted because he does not have a physical body. Because of his rebellion, Lucifer has denied himself all of the mortal blessings and experiences made possible through a tabernacle of flesh and bones. He cannot learn the lessons that only an embodied spirit can learn. He cannot marry or enjoy the blessings of procreation and family life. He cannot abide the reality of a literal and universal resurrection of all mankind. One of the potent scriptural meanings of the word damned is illustrated in his inability to continue developing and becoming like our Heavenly Father.