Elder Ballard on Scouts, "“The reality there is we didn’t really leave them; they kind of left us,”

[bsjkki]

This news story from the AP is making the rounds today. Elder Ballard gave a 91 minute interview with the AP...still looking for the whole video. Hopefully it will be published. The headline quote is in the title. He continued to say, " “The direction they were going was not consistent to what we feel our youth need to have...to survive in the world that lies ahead for them.”

He also discussed medical marijuana and why the Church is against recreational use. "“We think this ought to be managed under the medical profession and understand the real need and the real purpose for administering marijuana medically,” he said, “but recreational marijuana, we think has consequences because addiction, one way or another, starts very subtle sometimes.”  Here is the original AP article that is a source for most other news stories about this. https://apnews.com/bd0129a803df40f08e0240d75dd66f2b

[Robert F. Smith]

Pres Ballard means well and he speaks the same as many have spoken for generations, having completely forgotten that Prohibition did not work, and that it was worse than the disease.  It is one thing to prohibit recreational drug use for LDS members in good standing.  It is quite another to pass laws which do nothing to prevent such use by those who seek it in a free country.  Not only are the laws ineffective, but they have the actual consequence of encouraging major organized crime -- and the murder and degradation that goes with it.

Pres Ballard is not a medical professional and clearly does not understand addiction.  Like most of those who speak against recreational drug use, his policy recommendations actually create more addiction and death.  Without such bad advice, we might have made some progress against addiction by now.

My own opinion is that those who use recreational drugs are not criminals, but they are weak and deeply misled.  Their addictions lead to criminal activity of all sorts and to very high costs of incarceration and medical emergencies (vaping is the latest crisis).  Kevin Christensen can tell us about the real solutions which are available.

[Scott Lloyd]

17 hours ago, bsjkki said:

This news story from the AP is making the rounds today. Elder Ballard gave a 91 minute interview with the AP...still looking for the whole video. Hopefully it will be published. The headline quote is in the title. He continued to say, " “The direction they were going was not consistent to what we feel our youth need to have...to survive in the world that lies ahead for them.”

He also discussed medical marijuana and why the Church is against recreational use. "“We think this ought to be managed under the medical profession and understand the real need and the real purpose for administering marijuana medically,” he said, “but recreational marijuana, we think has consequences because addiction, one way or another, starts very subtle sometimes.”  Here is the original AP article that is a source for most other news stories about this. https://apnews.com/bd0129a803df40f08e0240d75dd66f2b

Nice piece. Very fair and positive. And President Ballard capsulizes very nicely what happened with regard to the Church and Scouting. The candor is refreshing. (Of course, as I’ve known him personally over the years, candor is what I've come to expect from him.)

The article is not precisely accurate when it refers to next year being the Church's bicentennial. Actually, the bicentennial will be in 2030. But I suppose it would have been too unwieldy for a brief article to explain that next year will be 200 years since the First Vision, not the organization of the Church.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Meadowchik]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Pres Ballard means well and he speaks the same as many have spoken for generations, having completely forgotten that Prohibition did not work, and that it was worse than the disease.  It is one thing to prohibit recreational drug use for LDS members in good standing.  It is quite another to pass laws which do nothing to prevent such use by those who seek it in a free country.  Not only are the laws ineffective, but they have the actual consequence of encouraging major organized crime -- and the murder and degradation that goes with it.

Pres Ballard is not a medical professional and clearly does not understand addiction.  Like most of those who speak against recreational drug use, his policy recommendations actually create more addiction and death.  Without such bad advice, we might have made some progress against addiction by now.

 

Agree with these parts, just not with your generalisations about recreational drug users.

[PacMan]

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Pres Ballard means well and he speaks the same as many have spoken for generations, having completely forgotten that Prohibition did not work, and that it was worse than the disease.  It is one thing to prohibit recreational drug use for LDS members in good standing.  It is quite another to pass laws which do nothing to prevent such use by those who seek it in a free country.  Not only are the laws ineffective, but they have the actual consequence of encouraging major organized crime -- and the murder and degradation that goes with it.

Pres Ballard is not a medical professional and clearly does not understand addiction.  Like most of those who speak against recreational drug use, his policy recommendations actually create more addiction and death.  Without such bad advice, we might have made some progress against addiction by now.

My own opinion is that those who use recreational drugs are not criminals, but they are weak and deeply misled.  Their addictions lead to criminal activity of all sorts and to very high costs of incarceration and medical emergencies (vaping is the latest crisis).  Kevin Christensen can tell us about the real solutions which are available.

I think your completely wrong. There is now a strong correlation between marijuana and psychosis, there is a grave concern that marijuana has increased driving fatalities, and there is actually an increase in organized crime in Colorado. 

Whether effective or not, I think the government has a responsibility to restrict use of dangerous substances. Following your logic, we should open the doors to opioids. Epidemic be darned. 

[blarsen]

10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Pres Ballard means well and he speaks the same as many have spoken for generations, having completely forgotten that Prohibition did not work, and that it was worse than the disease.  It is one thing to prohibit recreational drug use for LDS members in good standing.  It is quite another to pass laws which do nothing to prevent such use by those who seek it in a free country.  Not only are the laws ineffective, but they have the actual consequence of encouraging major organized crime -- and the murder and degradation that goes with it.

Pres Ballard is not a medical professional and clearly does not understand addiction.  Like most of those who speak against recreational drug use, his policy recommendations actually create more addiction and death.  Without such bad advice, we might have made some progress against addiction by now.

My own opinion is that those who use recreational drugs are not criminals, but they are weak and deeply misled.  Their addictions lead to criminal activity of all sorts and to very high costs of incarceration and medical emergencies (vaping is the latest crisis).  Kevin Christensen can tell us about the real solutions which are available.

Portugal decriminalized drugs and went to a stance of "treating the underlying causes" with apparent very good effect in terms of reducing addiction and crime.  Here is the introduction to an article on the Portugal experience, and links to the longer articles, written by Susana Ferreira:

Quote

 

Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

Since it decriminalised all drugs in 2001, Portugal has seen dramatic drops in overdoses, HIV infection and drug-related crime. By Susana Ferreira

Tuesday 5 December 2017 01.00 EST Last modified on Tuesday 5 December 2017 07.47 EST

Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?  https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radical-drugs-policy-is-working-why-hasnt-the-world-copied-it

Longer version:   Decriminalization: A Love Story :  https://www.thecommononline.org/decriminalization-a-love-story/

When the drugs came, they hit all at once. It was the 80s, and by the time one in 10 people had slipped into the depths of heroin use – bankers, university students, carpenters, socialites, miners – Portugal was in a state of panic.

Álvaro Pereira was working as a family doctor in Olhão in southern Portugal. “People were injecting themselves in the street, in public squares, in gardens,” he told me. “At that time, not a day passed when there wasn’t a robbery at a local business, or a mugging.” . . . . . . . 

 

[JLHPROF]

10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Pres Ballard means well and he speaks the same as many have spoken for generations, having completely forgotten that Prohibition did not work, and that it was worse than the disease.  It is one thing to prohibit recreational drug use for LDS members in good standing.  It is quite another to pass laws which do nothing to prevent such use by those who seek it in a free country.  Not only are the laws ineffective, but they have the actual consequence of encouraging major organized crime -- and the murder and degradation that goes with it.

I read this after reading the thread on polygamy legalization.  I couldn't help see the similarities.

To wit:

"The Church means well and speaks the same as many have spoken for generations, having completely forgotten that Prohibition did not work, and that it was worse than the disease.  It is one thing to prohibit polygamy for LDS members in good standing.  It is quite another to pass laws which do nothing to prevent such use by those who seek it in a free country.  Not only are the laws ineffective, but they have the actual consequence of encouraging major organized abuse -- and the murder and degradation that goes with it."

[strappinglad]

Prohibition did not work because there was a large portion of the population who wanted to drink. I don't see a large proportion of the population clamoring to practise polygamy. 

In truth, Prohibition in Canada did have a sobering effect .Before, there was a societal scourge of men who would spend a lot of their time and money in the bars to the neglect of home and family. When it became more difficult to obtain liquor , families were able to have money to eat. There was a book on the subject. I think it was called " Booze " .  

[The Nehor]

I am not convinced prohibition was a complete failure as it is so often characterized nor that repealing it has been a complete success. Then again I work in the Igniting Interlock industry so I see the death toll and ruined lives pretty regularly so I might be biased. I also profit off of it so that is kind of messed up. It is a recession proof industry. Truthfully we make more money in a recession because more people drink to cope.

I am also a hypocrite. I take amphetamines daily for a brain disorder. It allows me to function much better and takes away the perpetual anxiety that drove me to very depression. Ironically one of the reasons medicine discovered this treatment was that sufferers were often alcoholics and drug users in order to cope and they found that those using cocaine were actually performing better.

While I admire blarsen’s Portugal example of how to cope with these problems I believe there are cultural factors in the United States and in a lot of the rest of the world that would make this approach problematic and ineffective and I doubt we would see the same results. Portugal implemented it while coming out of a period of relatively benevolent authoritarian rule. Politically I see even less likelihood of it happening. The United States in particular has bought into the idea that this world is fundamentally moral and if you suffer or do not succeed then the problem is thought to be a moral one and the suffering is deserved. This worldview has a lot of advantages but also leaves blindspots. Add in the scandal of private prisons and unregulated “treatment centers” and companies that profit directly from illicit drug use and you have economic forces benefitting from the problem who will fight change.

I do not think we will make any headway until we face the questions of why people prefer casual and recreational and later addicted drug use to sobriety.

I agree with Elder Ballard that legalization is not helping right now.

Edited November 16, 2019 by The Nehor

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I read this after reading the thread on polygamy legalization.  I couldn't help see the similarities.

To wit:

"The Church means well and speaks the same as many have spoken for generations, having completely forgotten that Prohibition did not work, and that it was worse than the disease.  It is one thing to prohibit polygamy for LDS members in good standing.  It is quite another to pass laws which do nothing to prevent such use by those who seek it in a free country.  Not only are the laws ineffective, but they have the actual consequence of encouraging major organized abuse -- and the murder and degradation that goes with it."

CFR

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, blarsen said:

Portugal decriminalized drugs and went to a stance of "treating the underlying causes" with apparent very good effect in terms of reducing addiction and crime.  Here is the introduction to an article on the Portugal experience, and links to the longer articles, written by Susana Ferreira:

It is so sad that our leaders cannot see the handwriting on the wall.

[The Nehor]

18 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It is so sad that our leaders cannot see the handwriting on the wall.

Seeing better than the Seers?

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, PacMan said:

I think your completely wrong. There is now a strong correlation between marijuana and psychosis, there is a grave concern that marijuana has increased driving fatalities, and there is actually an increase in organized crime in Colorado. 

Whether effective or not, I think the government has a responsibility to restrict use of dangerous substances. Following your logic, we should open the doors to opioids. Epidemic be darned. 

For those who live in the real world, the cat is already out of the bag, and you are suggesting that we close the barn door after the mare got out.   You are a dollar short and day late with your sage advice.  News Flash:  Opioids have already been fully available for years, from doctors who believed every lie they were told by big Pharma.

Quote

From 2013 to 2017, the number of opioid-involved overdose deaths (opioid deaths) in the United States increased 90%, from 25,052 to 47,600.*  https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/917476 .

Drug overdose deaths in general are now well over 60,000 per year in the USA.  https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/drug-overdose-data.htm .

Organized crime cartels got their start in the illicit drug trade, but now have expanded into massive and very profitable human trafficking and weapons sales.  They count their money by weighing shipping containers (the big-rig kind) filled with cash.  The cartels have a billion dollar industry, which you fully support by refusing to place all drugs under govt and professional pharmaceutical control -- where they can be taxed and regulated same as booze and cigarettes.

Yes Marijuana is bad, but so are many other drug delivery systems -- most far more dangerous.  We do nothing to solve our problem by pretending to control it.  Our very expensive "war on drugs" has never had one iota of success.  It never will.  We need to learn from our mistakes.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Seeing better than the Seers?

Even seers can be fallible.  It is a shame that they are  so poorly served by toads who give them bad advice and do very poor staff work.  Someone needs to tell it like it is.  

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

..... I work in the Igniting Interlock industry so I see the death toll and ruined lives pretty regularly so I might be biased. I also profit off of it so that is kind of messed up. It is a recession proof industry. Truthfully we make more money in a recession because more people drink to cope........................

Just an aside about my late wife, who was an APRN (Advanced Practice Registered Nurse), and who did not drink booze.  She ended up the victim of the ignition interlock industry here in Utah County, after getting arrested for impaired driving one night on her way to work at the State Hospital.  I picked her up at the police station and she appeared to be unimpaired.  However, the blood they drew and tested showed regular pharmaceutical levels of the powerful drugs she took to control her epilepsy (prevent seizures) -- fully in line with her prescription.

At court she was fined and sentenced to have an ignition interlock system installed on her car in order to detect alcohol, even though her conviction was not alcohol-related.  The DMV was unconcerned with the absurd nature of that sentence, and I was unable to get a member of the State Legislature interested in the idiocy of the law they had on the books (strangely, the Senator I contacted was a nurse from Utah County, but she ignored my request to change the law).  That said, the ignition interlock people were very professional and even sympathetic, but that didn't help much.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

For those who live in the real world, the cat is already out of the bag, and you are suggesting that we close the barn door after the mare got out.   You are a dollar short and day late with your sage advice.  News Flash:  Opioids have already been fully available for years, from doctors who believed every lie they were told by big Pharma.

Drug overdose deaths in general are now well over 60,000 per year in the USA.  https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/drug-overdose-data.htm .

Organized crime cartels got their start in the illicit drug trade, but now have expanded into massive and very profitable human trafficking and weapons sales.  They count their money by weighing shipping containers (the big-rig kind) filled with cash.  The cartels have a billion dollar industry, which you fully support by refusing to place all drugs under govt and professional pharmaceutical control -- where they can be taxed and regulated same as booze and cigarettes.

Yes Marijuana is bad, but so are many other drug delivery systems -- most far more dangerous.  We do nothing to solve our problem by pretending to control it.  Our very expensive "war on drugs" has never had one iota of success.  It never will.  We need to learn from our mistakes.

I might add, 60,000 drug overdose deaths a year, marijuana overdose 0.  No one has ever died of marijuana overdose.  Unlike other drugs that inhibit vital body functions like breathing, or blood pressure, marijuana only affects memory and coordination.   

[Meadowchik]

8 minutes ago, california boy said:

I might add, 60,000 drug overdose deaths a year, marijuana overdose 0.  No one has ever died of marijuana overdose.  Unlike other drugs that inhibit vital body functions like breathing, or blood pressure, marijuana only affects memory and coordination.   

Furthermore with legalisation can come more research which had been previously neglected once it had been classified without the correct evidence. 

Thus far it seems there may be different risk factors, like age of use, potency, and pre-existing health issues. This once better understood, that data can be used so that significant mitigation can be implemented.

[The Nehor]

31 minutes ago, california boy said:

I might add, 60,000 drug overdose deaths a year, marijuana overdose 0.  No one has ever died of marijuana overdose.  Unlike other drugs that inhibit vital body functions like breathing, or blood pressure, marijuana only affects memory and coordination.   

I admit to worry about the possible link between regular use and later psychosis they are seeing in Europe.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Even seers can be fallible.  It is a shame that they are  so poorly served by toads who give them bad advice and do very poor staff work.  Someone needs to tell it like it is.  

This can be used to ignore virtually anything an apostle says. Nice tool.

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Just an aside about my late wife, who was an APRN (Advanced Practice Registered Nurse), and who did not drink booze.  She ended up the victim of the ignition interlock industry here in Utah County, after getting arrested for impaired driving one night on her way to work at the State Hospital.  I picked her up at the police station and she appeared to be unimpaired.  However, the blood they drew and tested showed regular pharmaceutical levels of the powerful drugs she took to control her epilepsy (prevent seizures) -- fully in line with her prescription.

At court she was fined and sentenced to have an ignition interlock system installed on her car in order to detect alcohol, even though her conviction was not alcohol-related.  The DMV was unconcerned with the absurd nature of that sentence, and I was unable to get a member of the State Legislature interested in the idiocy of the law they had on the books (strangely, the Senator I contacted was a nurse from Utah County, but she ignored my request to change the law).  That said, the ignition interlock people were very professional and even sympathetic, but that didn't help much.

Yeah, that sounds stupid. I am guessing those laws were crafted because in just under 50% of drunk driving situations that result in a fatality illicit drugs are a contributing factor as well so they include both. I am not sure of local laws but impaired driving (whatever caused her to be pulled over) is often enough for a conviction. Still odd though.

[The Nehor]

In general roadside drug testing is going to be a big thing going forward.

Whatever your position on marijuana legality please do not drive while high.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

No one has ever died of marijuana overdose.  

Was this disproved as resulting from marijuana?

https://www.newsweek.com/thc-overdose-death-marijuana-exposure-united-states-1442742

And while I do think one should differentiate types of death, people have died from using marijuana (from an additive apparently), vaping deaths are at 42 now.

https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/basic_information/e-cigarettes/severe-lung-disease.html

Deaths by accidents associated with weed use should also be taken into account:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/18/health/marijuana-driving-accidents-bn/index.html

It is possible that with time (experience), impaired driving accident rate returns to normal.  If so, this would suggest an aggressive don't drive high campaign along with any legalization.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/18/health/marijuana-driving-accidents-bn/index.html

ps:  I am pro medical marijuana; recreational....kind of hard for me to reason excluding that when we allow alcohol, but I am more undecided than decided.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

CFR

On which part?  The opinion I posted that your statement on prohibition being ineffective could have easily been true of polygamy as much as pot.  What would you like referenced?

[InCognitus]

Why all the fuss about the marijuana comments when the real threat in this whole story is with the Boy Scouts?  (That's sarcasm, in case anyone thinks I'm serous  )  Well, I'm partially serious.  I attended Scout Camp with the boys from our ward last June at a BSA owned and operated camp, and Elder Ballard's comments are exactly right.  The boys and girls I saw from another visiting troop, horsing around and waiting to use the same showers late at night, is a disaster waiting to happen. 

 

[Skylla]

5 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Why all the fuss about the marijuana comments when the real threat in this whole story is with the Boy Scouts?  (That's sarcasm, in case anyone thinks I'm serous  )  Well, I'm partially serious.  I attended Scout Camp with the boys from our ward last June at a BSA owned and operated camp, and Elder Ballard's comments are exactly right.  The boys and girls I saw from another visiting troop, horsing around and waiting to use the same showers late at night, is a disaster waiting to happen. 

 

Agreed. Let's get back to the main topic please.

Skylla

[bsjkki]

I think any topic that is mentioned by Elder Ballard is fair game in this thread. His 3rd topic mentioned in the article is this. 

“In response to a question on the church’s tenet on kindness, Ballard said the country’s behavior needs to improve.

“We ought to be nice to each other,” he said.

The people should pray that the leaders of this country feel the urgency and importance of turning in a divine direction, Ballard said.

“Surely if there was a time that we need it with all the things that are going on in the country and the world, wouldn’t it be nice if we asked heaven to help us a little bit?” he asked.”