Scott Lloyd Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, Skylla said: Agreed. Let's get back to the main topic please. Skylla Sorry to divert this discussion by getting back to the main topic, but does anyone know the long-term prognosis for the survival of Scouting now that the Church has severed ties? Edited November 17, 2019 by Scott Lloyd
Calm Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Sorry to divert this discussion by getting back to the main topic, but does anyone know the long-term prognosis for the survival of Scouting now that the Church has has severed ties? I would assume it will survive given how international organizations of Boy Scouts are all around, so likely many models to choose from if BSA decides their current trajectory isn't the best; some look like they are doing much better than the States: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Organization_of_the_Scout_Movement_members Looks like scouting is (was?) part of the educational curriculum in Indonesia, which explains the ten times as many scouts there.: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerakan_Pramuka_Indonesia Edited November 17, 2019 by Calm
The Nehor Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Sorry to divert this discussion by getting back to the main topic, but does anyone know the long-term prognosis for the survival of Scouting now that the Church has has severed ties? I think its survival will hinge on the legal arena. If they are not sued into oblivion they should be fine. Edited November 17, 2019 by The Nehor 3
Avatar4321 Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: It is so sad that our leaders cannot see the handwriting on the wall. I suspect they can see which is why they are pushing back 2
nuclearfuels Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 On 11/15/2019 at 5:28 PM, bsjkki said: This news story from the AP is making the rounds today. Elder Ballard gave a 91 minute interview with the AP...still looking for the whole video. Hopefully it will be published. The headline quote is in the title. He continued to say, " “The direction they were going was not consistent to what we feel our youth need to have...to survive in the world that lies ahead for them.” He also discussed medical marijuana and why the Church is against recreational use. "“We think this ought to be managed under the medical profession and understand the real need and the real purpose for administering marijuana medically,” he said, “but recreational marijuana, we think has consequences because addiction, one way or another, starts very subtle sometimes.” Here is the original AP article that is a source for most other news stories about this. https://apnews.com/bd0129a803df40f08e0240d75dd66f2b The BSA accepted corporate donors whose views did "leave" the organization of the Church. Why did BSA do this? Not sure. Probably due to declining memberships and some misguided idea that local Scout Executives needed to continue receiving 6 figure salaries and the BSA Executive, a 7-figure salary. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said: I suspect they can see which is why they are pushing back Mene, Mene, Tekel, upharsin?
Robert F. Smith Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 5 hours ago, JLHPROF said: On which part? The opinion I posted that your statement on prohibition being ineffective could have easily been true of polygamy as much as pot. What would you like referenced? Was that a real or pseudo-quote? Fess up, prof.
Robert F. Smith Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 6 hours ago, The Nehor said: This can be used to ignore virtually anything an apostle says. Nice tool. This applies to anyone in high position of leadership. If you have a lousy, sycophantic staff who tell you what they think you want to hear, you will fail. 6 hours ago, The Nehor said: Yeah, that sounds stupid. I am guessing those laws were crafted because in just under 50% of drunk driving situations that result in a fatality illicit drugs are a contributing factor as well so they include both. I am not sure of local laws but impaired driving (whatever caused her to be pulled over) is often enough for a conviction. Still odd though. It wasn't the conviction which was troubling. After all her drugs were powerful and may very well have impaired her driving. It was the inane connection with alcohol which was so wrong. Her lungs were not strong enough to operate the interlock system anyhow, so that I ended up having to drive her to all her appointments.
Robert F. Smith Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 6 hours ago, The Nehor said: I admit to worry about the possible link between regular use and later psychosis they are seeing in Europe. When I was living in Jerusalem, many of the foreign tourist youth I met were intent on getting hashish. My Arab friends were completely disgusted with those youth coming to them trying to get a connection to a hash dealer. No wonder they find Westerners dissolute and abominable. The main result I noticed in heavy users of hash was their torpor and lack of motivation to do anything. Some even complained of losing feeling in their hands.
Scott Lloyd Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 2 hours ago, Calm said: I would assume it will survive given how international organizations of Boy Scouts are all around, so likely many models to choose from if BSA decides their current trajectory isn't the best; some look like they are doing much better than the States: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Organization_of_the_Scout_Movement_members Looks like scouting is (was?) part of the educational curriculum in Indonesia, which explains the ten times as many scouts there.: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerakan_Pramuka_Indonesia So you’re saying, then, that they’ll do it by superimposing some other country’s organization on American society and hoping it takes root?
Scott Lloyd Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said: The BSA accepted corporate donors whose views did "leave" the organization of the Church. Why did BSA do this? Not sure. Probably due to declining memberships and some misguided idea that local Scout Executives needed to continue receiving 6 figure salaries and the BSA Executive, a 7-figure salary. It’s hard not to feel resentment now about the occasions in the past when one was pressured into ponying up for Friends of Scouting campaigns, knowing full well that the money was going to support top-heavy administration, corporate salaries and private jets. 3
Scott Lloyd Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, The Nehor said: I think its survival will hinge on the legal arena. If they are not sued into oblivion they should be fine. How so? The loss of Church-unit charters ought to have been disastrous for them. Are they coping by admitting girls, thus poaching the Girl Scouts’ base? What? Edited November 17, 2019 by Scott Lloyd
InCognitus Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: 3 hours ago, The Nehor said: I think its survival will hinge on the legal arena. If they are not sued into oblivion they should be fine. How so? The loss of Church-unit charters ought to have been disastrous for them. Are they coping admitting girls, thus poaching the Girl Scouts’ base? What? The scoutmaster meeting I attended at the BSA scout camp this last summer was basically a business meeting, with an administrator from the BSA presenting the plan on how they intend to keep the organization going. I wish I had taken notes now, because some statistics were given about the LDS exodus impact (which was a lot higher than I had heard previously) and a few other things were said that would be useful to this discussion, but since I knew it would be our last year participating in the BSA I basically tuned out most of it. But one of the things they are doing is selling off a lot of their property and consolidating their camps and scaling back administration offices. 2
The Nehor Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: How so? The loss of Church-unit charters ought to have been disastrous for them. Are they coping by admitting girls, thus poaching the Girl Scouts’ base? What? I would assume they scale down. I still think their biggest vulnerability will be abuse lawsuits. 1
The Nehor Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: This applies to anyone in high position of leadership. If you have a lousy, sycophantic staff who tell you what they think you want to hear, you will fail. It wasn't the conviction which was troubling. After all her drugs were powerful and may very well have impaired her driving. It was the inane connection with alcohol which was so wrong. Her lungs were not strong enough to operate the interlock system anyhow, so that I ended up having to drive her to all her appointments. I am interested as to why you think they have lousy sycophantic staff. That has not been my experience. Nor do I believe the 70s and apostles are fools who would put up with toadying flunkies. They are not idiots. Edited November 17, 2019 by The Nehor 4
Scott Lloyd Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 (edited) 22 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I would assume they scale down. I still think their biggest vulnerability will be abuse lawsuits. That’s not precisely what you said at first. You said setting aside the legal threats, “they’ll be fine.” You seemed dismissive of any other prospective problems beyond lawsuits. Edited November 17, 2019 by Scott Lloyd
The Nehor Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: That’s not precisely what you said at first. You said setting aside the legal threats, “they’ll be fine.” You seemed dismissive of any other prospective problems beyond lawsuits. I do not think shrinking the organization’s membership is a death knell. I kind of suspect the organization will do better now. Edited November 17, 2019 by The Nehor
Calm Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: So you’re saying, then, that they’ll do it by superimposing some other country’s organization on American society and hoping it takes root? No, I am saying the organization appears to have survived in a multitude of variations, so it is likely they will be able to come up with something that works here with the current culture. Certainly they may be able to get ideas of what has and hasn't worked from how others adapted to their changing cultures how to make it work for the US. Edited November 17, 2019 by Calm
Scott Lloyd Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calm said: No, I am saying the organization appears to have survived in a multitude of variations, so it is likely they will be able to come up with something that works here with the current culture. Certainly they may be able to get ideas of what has and hasn't worked from how others adapted to their changing cultures how to make it work for the US. Can you cite an example of a country or culture where Scouting has been confronted by challenges comparable to what it has faced in the United States? For that matter, how similar is Scouting from country to country? My impression is that each nation’s Scouting organization is autonomous. I wouldn’t even call it a franchise. A movement, perhaps, more-or-less loosely tracing its origin to what Lord Baden-Powell founded in the early 20th century. There were even organizations in NAZI Germany (Hitler Youth) and Communist Russia and Germany (Young Pioneers) that were loosely based on Scouting. Edited November 17, 2019 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: I do not think shrinking the organization’s membership is a death knell. I kind of suspect the organization will do better now. Forced and substantial diminishment in size, reach and influence would not correspond with many people’s definition of “doing fine,” I dare say. This is an organization with a long and proud history. I’d even call it an icon of Americana. So sad to see what is happening to it.
The Nehor Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Forced and substantial diminishment in size, reach and influence would not correspond with many people’s definition of “doing fine,” I dare say. This is an organization with a long and proud history. I’d even call it an icon of Americana. So sad to see what is happening to it. True, but I think it is healthy. Our participation has been halfhearted for years. Now most of those involved will be those who want to be associated with it. To create an analogy if the church lost half its membership but 95% of those who leave are inactive or are unwilling to or only halfhearted do their callings would you consider that crippling? I think it would be a bit of a shock And might need to scale back a little but we would be fine. 4
InCognitus Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: This is an organization with a long and proud history. I’d even call it an icon of Americana. So sad to see what is happening to it. I've never considered myself a "scouter". I went through the program when I was a kid, and I like camping well enough and I love the outdoors and that sort of thing, but I'm basically a nerd, and consequently there are a lot of things about scouting that never appealed to me, like the awards, uniforms, and other things that go along with full participation in the program. So I was very surprised when I was called to be an assistant scoutmaster several years ago. (Humorous side note: After attending one Round Table meeting where we saw the participation level of some of the other LDS troops, another guy in my ward commented to me that being in scouting seemed like being a member of a "cult", and I know exactly what he meant by that) . Fortunately for me, I served with several really good scoutmasters that knew the program well and showed me the ropes. And one scoutmaster after another either moved out of the ward or was called to another calling, and eventually I became the scoutmaster. But after serving in that calling for nearly six years, I gained an appreciation for the scouting program and what it taught the boys. Each of the merit badges that are required for Eagle Scout should be required for all youth since they teach important life skills, and I certainly hope we don't lose these skills in our communities. First aid, emergency preparedness, citizenship and community service are all important. So I never thought I would say this about scouting, but I agree it is really sad to see what is happening to the organization and I hope it will succeed and be still teaching these disciplines to youth throughout the world. I hope we find ways to continue to teach our youth these skills. 6 hours ago, The Nehor said: True, but I think it is healthy. Our participation has been halfhearted for years. Now most of those involved will be those who want to be associated with it. I think this depended on the ward and who was leading the program. I know of some wards and stakes that were 100% full participation, enforcing the full uniform requirements and all that goes along with that. I know of other wards and leaders that picked out the parts of the scouting program that worked for them, and ignored the rest. But totally independent of the ward's application of the program is the "participation" issue that I think may hurt the organization the most, and that is from registered members and the "Friends of Scouting" drives. There is a fee associated with every leader or boy that is registered, and that includes the bishop, a counselor, a committee chair person, and all the young men leaders and boys. That can amount to a lot of people in each ward. I think they will survive (I hope they survive), but it does require them to re-scale their operations and focus on recruiting. Edited November 17, 2019 by InCognitus 3
The Nehor Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Can you cite an example of a country or culture where Scouting has been confronted by challenges comparable to what it has faced in the United States? Well, the Hitler Youth were derived from Scouting and they hit an even rougher patch in 1945.
Scott Lloyd Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: Well, the Hitler Youth were derived from Scouting and they hit an even rougher patch in 1945. Umm, I said comparable to what BSA has faced in the United States. And no TDS symptoms, please. Edited November 17, 2019 by Scott Lloyd
Robert F. Smith Posted November 17, 2019 Posted November 17, 2019 14 hours ago, The Nehor said: I am interested as to why you think they have lousy sycophantic staff. That has not been my experience. Nor do I believe the 70s and apostles are fools who would put up with toadying flunkies. They are not idiots. Nearly all organizations are bedeviled with group think and poor quality staff. It is so endemic that no one even questions it. The "yes-man" approach is a huge problem in all walks of life. Is it a problem for the First Presidency and Twelve? I don't know, and can only judge based on specific results. Dealing with drug abuse is merely one issue, but Pres Ballard's words don't indicate that he has a grasp on the situation, and he is not alone in that respect. Nearly all leaders of our modern society have the same problem. In the economy of God, we are all required to use the materials and knowledge we have been given. When we have the information and means, revelation is not needed. Where is Brother Brigham when we need him?
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