The Ban on Coffee

[Sanpitch]

I think I've forgotten how to post.  Anyway I'm curious why President Nelson and the Church is so dedicated to banning coffee.  President Nelson talked about being careful being near a coffee establishment.  From the recent magazine, The Week: 

"Coffee:  Forget the warnings about coffee's link to cardiovascular issues.   A 2017 review of 400 studies determined that most people can safely drink up to 32 oz a day (sans sugar, of course).  Coffee is, in fact, the average American's leading source of antioxidants."

Seems to be fairly safe to me.  Any comments?

[JLHPROF]

Easy answer - because obedience is the real test of the Word of Wisdom.  It has never really been about healthy vs unhealthy science.

So we follow the Lord's instruction either to the level of the revelation or to the level of the current leadership policy.  But it's about what we are willing to follow, not health science.

D&C 89:2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—
            3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.

[Gillebre]

I find that the blessings of acting in good faith far outweigh the good that any other source claims a certain product or practice can provide. President Nelson is so much more invested in helping gather Israel and prepare the world for the Second Coming, chiefly by helping people exercise faith and grow in capacity to receive revelation, than in any physical benefit to drinking coffee. I've noticed a significant increase, at least in my own sphere, of stimulant use (energy drinks, steady coffee consumption throughout the day) almost like a functional necessity. People are allowing themselves to become dependent on something that won't exist after this life, and the consequences of dependency on earthly substances, media, or practices, will not serve us well in the spiritual long-term, in my opinion. Perhaps we're not only being warned against future addiction to stimulation, but also being trained in how to build our devotion in small and simple ways as we heed the Prophet in a way that may seem insignificant. This is so that when the day comes that the Prophet asks much more of the Saints, like returning to Jackson County, or other hard things, we'll have prepared our hearts to obey the Lord.

Even if coffee is some miraculous thing that does the body so much good, if we ignore a Prophet's counsel, then all the physical good can't fix the spiritual harm that comes from choosing to set at naught the counsels of God. To no one in particular: congratulations, you've decided to drink coffee, and I wish you all the best, but don't pretend you are aligning yourself with the Lord's servants (in the instance of ignoring them in one aspect of life, but following them in other areas). We can't be lukewarm forever, either be all in or all out. We do grow in learning and wisdom over time, but we are the ones who decide whether we extend the benefit of the doubt or not to President Nelson and the other Apostles.

I firmly believe that we are being sifted in all things, and that they're either Prophets or not. To defend oneself by saying that "well not everything they say is inspired," I think this phrasing will be one of Satan's great tricks in the last days. This is not to discount the fallible nature of men in any calling, but the line between exercising spiritual caution, and rationalizing your own desire to not do what has been asked, is carefully obscured by the adversary. Make the choice to trust in the power of the Spirit which has given us our witness, and that if we're on the wrong track, the Holy Ghost will truly warn us to self-correct. I learned at the end of my mission how it was so easy to think my ideas were blessed by spiritual confirmation when in fact I was imposing my own desires first and on top of anything the Spirit was telling me. If the Spirit is not correcting you, to some extent, weekly and daily, then it's time to disconnect from the world and reconnect with Heaven so we can reset ourselves.

Just my thoughts.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Gillebre

[JulieM]

39 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

I think I've forgotten how to post.  Anyway I'm curious why President Nelson and the Church is so dedicated to banning coffee.  President Nelson talked about being careful being near a coffee establishment.  From the recent magazine, The Week: 

"Coffee:  Forget the warnings about coffee's link to cardiovascular issues.   A 2017 review of 400 studies determined that most people can safely drink up to 32 oz a day (sans sugar, of course).  Coffee is, in fact, the average American's leading source of antioxidants."

Seems to be fairly safe to me.  Any comments?

I wonder if it’s because the youth love Starbucks (or at least many of them do from observing youth in our ward).  It’s cool to show up holding a Starbucks cup even if it’s just a smoothie.  They love to announce they’re going there as if it’s cool to do.  And, we have many come to activities with the small bottles of Starbucks coffee drinks from supermarkets, etc.  I don’t know if this is why, but it’s what I’m seeing as a YW leader.

Edited October 20, 2019 by JulieM

[Hamba Tuhan]

With the exception of the past three years, I have spent my entire adult life in an academic setting -- where my colleagues seemed dumbfounded that I could function without coffee. They all needed a coffee to wake up in the morning, to get through the mid-morning and mid-afternoon slumps, etc. When I was studying for my master's degree in America, a fellow postgraduate calculated that he was spending US$8,000 per annum on takeaway coffees. Hundreds of times I've heard some variation of, 'Ugh, I need a coffee, and I need it now!' or 'I simply can't function without coffee' or 'No one talk to me till I've had my coffee' and so forth. No one will ever be able to convince me that the substance does not create dependence.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Sanpitch said:

I think I've forgotten how to post.  Anyway I'm curious why President Nelson and the Church is so dedicated to banning coffee.  President Nelson talked about being careful being near a coffee establishment.  From the recent magazine, The Week: 

"Coffee:  Forget the warnings about coffee's link to cardiovascular issues.   A 2017 review of 400 studies determined that most people can safely drink up to 32 oz a day (sans sugar, of course).  Coffee is, in fact, the average American's leading source of antioxidants."

Seems to be fairly safe to me.  Any comments?

In Moses' day, not eating lamb was also safe during the Passover.

[CA Steve]

19 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

With the exception of the past three years, I have spent my entire adult life in an academic setting -- where my colleagues seemed dumbfounded that I could function without coffee. They all needed a coffee to wake up in the morning, to get through the mid-morning and mid-afternoon slumps, etc. When I was studying for my master's degree in America, a fellow postgraduate calculated that he was spending US$8,000 per annum on takeaway coffees. Hundreds of times I've heard some variation of, 'Ugh, I need a coffee, and I need it now!' or 'I simply can't function without coffee' or 'No one talk to me till I've had my coffee' and so forth. No one will ever be able to convince me that the substance does not create dependence.

And yet for those who have to get their functionality from an energy drink, there is no problem with the WoW.

Edited October 20, 2019 by CA Steve

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

And yet for those who have to get their functionality from an energy drink, there is no problem with the WoW.

If you're pointing out that health concerns aren't the deciding issue, I don't think anyone is disagreeing.

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

And yet for those who have to get their functionality from an energy drink, there is no problem with the WoW.

Absolutely no one 'has to get their functionality' from any beverage laden with chemical stimulants. I don't. The Word of Wisdom exists in a very basic format to teach us correct principles. From the August 2019 Ensign:

Quote

What the Word of Wisdom is not

President Boyd K. Packer (1924–2015), President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, taught us what the Word of Wisdom is not ... a comprehensive list. “There are many habit-forming, addictive things that one can drink or chew or inhale or inject which injure both body and spirit which are not mentioned in the revelation.”

Latter-day prophets have repeatedly urged us to avoid all habit-forming substances. From the media release just two months ago:

Quote

Over time, Church leaders have provided additional instruction on those things that are encouraged or forbidden by the Word of Wisdom, and have taught that substances that are destructive, habit-forming or addictive should be avoided.

I feel reasonably confident that if the Church were to maintain some continually updated register of banned substances, you would be whingeing about that too. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[JulieM]

40 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

With the exception of the past three years, I have spent my entire adult life in an academic setting -- where my colleagues seemed dumbfounded that I could function without coffee. They all needed a coffee to wake up in the morning, to get through the mid-morning and mid-afternoon slumps, etc. When I was studying for my master's degree in America, a fellow postgraduate calculated that he was spending US$8,000 per annum on takeaway coffees. Hundreds of times I've heard some variation of, 'Ugh, I need a coffee, and I need it now!' or 'I simply can't function without coffee' or 'No one talk to me till I've had my coffee' and so forth. No one will ever be able to convince me that the substance does not create dependence.

Sorry, but I know too many who drink one Diet Coke after another and joke about needing them to get through the day.  I don’t drink soda, but I’m in the minority with the other leaders I serve with.  Most of them show up to presidency meetings with their coke or Diet Coke.....or sleepily say they need to go home and have one 😏

I was on vacation with family who are active members and many drink a Diet Coke for breakfast.

So, this isn’t just a coffee thing, IMO.

Edited October 20, 2019 by JulieM

[Hamba Tuhan]

25 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I know too many who drink one Diet Coke after another and joke about needing them to get through the day.

Yep, dependence is dependence regardless of the medium.

Quote

I was on vacation with family who are active members and many drink a Diet Coke for breakfast.

I don't.

Quote

So, this isn’t just a coffee thing, IMO.

No, it's not. And the Church doesn't teach that it is. Specifically see the quotes in my post directly above yours.

The Word of Wisdom was given in 19th-century America. Everywhere I have lived on this planet, there have been drug-bearing substances that are specific to that part of the world, and new ones -- like 'energy' drinks, are popping up all the time. The Word of Wisdom as it has been taught since Brigham Young focuses on a minimum standard involving substances that have been universal across both space and time. This means it is intellectually and practically accessible to every single Saint regardless of where or when s/he lives. I can't be responsible for members who never raise their eyes high enough to see the principles behind the 'rules': 'substances that are destructive, habit-forming or addictive should be avoided'.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[JulieM]

5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yep, dependence is dependence regardless of the medium.

I don't.

Oh, I agree!  I don’t either (not just because of addiction or dependency, but I don’t believe it’s good health wise).  
 

I’m just relating what I’ve observed.

[Sanpitch]

33 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Absolutely no one 'has to get their functionality' from any beverage laden with chemical stimulants. I don't. The Word of Wisdom exists in a very basic format to teach us correct principles. From the August 2019 Ensign:

Latter-day prophets have repeatedly urged us to avoid all habit-forming substances. From the media release just two months ago:

I feel reasonably confident that if the Church were to maintain some continually updated register of banned substances, you would be whingeing about that too. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't think so,  since I think that would be so much more useful.  There are many health issues that would be nice to be warned about.  But I ignore the WofW anyway.  I think I can find the most healthful diet on my own.

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

I don't think so,  since I think that would be so much more useful ... But I ignore the WofW anyway.

So you would find it 'useful' to have more rules you can ignore? 

[CA Steve]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I feel reasonably confident that if the Church were to maintain some continually updated register of banned substances, you would be whingeing about that too. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I recently lauded the Church's expansion of the WoW to vaping, and in fact I pointed out I think it should also prohibit energy drinks for consistency, drinks which I believe are much worse for us than coffee. If caffeine restriction is any part of the WoW, those drinks should also be banned. 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2019 by CA Steve

[Sanpitch]

6 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I recently lauded the Church's expansion of the WoW to vaping, and in fact I pointed out I think it should also prohibit energy drinks for consistency, drinks which I believe are much worse for us than coffee. If caffeine restriction is any part of the WoW, those drinks should also be banned. 

 

 

Well said exactly.  That would be very useful.

[Jake Starkey]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Easy answer - because obedience is the real test of the Word of Wisdom.  It has never really been about healthy vs unhealthy science.

So we follow the Lord's instruction either to the level of the revelation or to the level of the current leadership policy.  But it's about what we are willing to follow, not health science.

D&C 89:2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—
            3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.

And the promise of improved health implied in v.3 is found in

18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, ^ashall receive ^bhealth in their navel and marrow to their bones;

19 And shall ^afind ^bwisdom and great ^ctreasures of ^dknowledge, even hidden treasures;

20 And shall ^arun and not be ^bweary, and shall walk and not faint.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

I think it should also prohibit energy drinks for consistency, drinks which I believe are much worse for us than coffee.

Saints who live in areas where energy drinks are a thing can easily prohibit them. That's what I do.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

I think I've forgotten how to post.  Anyway I'm curious why President Nelson and the Church is so dedicated to banning coffee.  President Nelson talked about being careful being near a coffee establishment.  From the recent magazine, The Week: 

"Coffee:  Forget the warnings about coffee's link to cardiovascular issues.   A 2017 review of 400 studies determined that most people can safely drink up to 32 oz a day (sans sugar, of course).  Coffee is, in fact, the average American's leading source of antioxidants."

Seems to be fairly safe to me.  Any comments?

It just makes your heart race, pops your blood pressure up and is addictive.   Other than that.... if you put sugar and creamer with artery clogging saturated fat in it, it's splendid.  

Speaking of splendid then you have your choice of artificial sweeteners to make it even more splendid!   Great stuff!  

[Kenngo1969]

Quote

 

Mosiah 4: Part of King Benjamin's Address

29 And finally, I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may commit sin; for there are divers ways and means, even so many that I cannot number them.

30 But this much I can tell you, that if ye do not watch yourselves, and your thoughts, and your words, and your deeds, and observe the commandments of God, and continue in the faith of what ye have heard concerning the coming of our Lord, even unto the end of your lives, ye must perish. And now, O man, remember, and perish not.

 

As for coffee, in a previous "did-you-know-that-it-has-antioxidants-in-it?" thread, I commented, "I don't care if it's the very elixir of life.  I have covenanted not to drink it, and I know I will be blessed for keeping my covenants."  To each, his or her own, and your mileage may vary, et cetera.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Kenngo1969

[sunstoned]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Easy answer - because obedience is the real test of the Word of Wisdom.  It has never really been about healthy vs unhealthy science.

So we follow the Lord's instruction either to the level of the revelation or to the level of the current leadership policy.  But it's about what we are willing to follow, not health science.

D&C 89:2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—
            3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.

I am not sure what you are promoting here.  Basically the lord says one thing and church leaders have created a hard policy that says something quite different.  So, are we suppose to obey because some church leader says so?  To me that is blind obedience.  Now, I will retract that statement if someone can show me where God/Jesus has updated the D&C canonized revelation from a "not by commandment" to "yes, this is a commandment and it includes tea and coffee".  

In my option, this is a prime example of men extending and changing the commandments of God.  They don't even try to produce a updated revelation.  Polices are from men, and from prophets and apostles.  And we have seen many policies which have been reversed.  The Priesthood band comes to mind.  Everyone from 100 years bowed their heads and accepted this bad policy. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

19 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

Now, I will retract that statement if someone can show me where God/Jesus has updated the D&C canonized revelation from a "not by commandment" to "yes, this is a commandment and it includes tea and coffee".

I quoted Brigham Young speaking in 1867 twice in the recently closed thread: 'I said to the Saints at our last annual Conference, the Spirit whispers to me to call upon the Latter-day Saints to observe the Word of Wisdom, to let tea, coffee, and tobacco alone, and to abstain from drinking spirituous drinks. This is what the Spirit signifies through me'.

Why do you continue to reject Brigham's very clear statement? You are certainly free to argue that Brigham was lying or mistaken when he said that was what the Spirit had told him, but I still don't know if you believe (a) there is a God and (b) He revealed the Word of Wisdom to Joseph Smith. I've asked you twice, and both times you dodged the questions. Your answers are necessary context to understand your apparent hand-wringing over Brigham's inspired clarification in 1867, which has been with us from then till now, and later prophetic refinements to the Word of Wisdom as a doctrinal complex.

Latter-day Saints are not bound down to a single static revelation on any topic. You should know that.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[sunstoned]

15 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I quoted Brigham Young speaking in 1867 twice in the recently closed thread: 'I said to the Saints at our last annual Conference, the Spirit whispers to me to call upon the Latter-day Saints to observe the Word of Wisdom, to let tea, coffee, and tobacco alone, and to abstain from drinking spirituous drinks. This is what the Spirit signifies through me'.

Why do you continue to reject Brigham's very clear statement? You are certainly free to argue that Brigham was lying or mistaken when he said that was what the Spirit had told him, but I still don't know if you believe (a) there is a God and (b) He revealed the Word of Wisdom to Joseph Smith. I've asked you twice, and both times you dodged the questions. Your answers are necessary context to understand your apparent hand-wringing over Brigham's inspired clarification in 1867, which has been with us from then till now, and later prophetic refinements to the Word of Wisdom as a doctrinal complex.

Latter-day Saints are not bound down to a single static revelation on any topic. You should know that.

Reject BY clear statement?  Which one?  The ban of blacks and the Priesthood?  The Adam is God teachings?  His teachings on Blood Atonement? Do you mean his thoughts on the Word of Wisdom?  In 1867 he was promoting Valley Tan, his own Whiskey label.  

http://pre-prowhiskeymen.blogspot.com/2016/08/brigham-young-and-valley-tan-whiskey_18.html

 

[MustardSeed]

5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Easy answer - because obedience is the real test of the Word of Wisdom.  It has never really been about healthy vs unhealthy science.

So we follow the Lord's instruction either to the level of the revelation or to the level of the current leadership policy.  But it's about what we are willing to follow, not health science.

D&C 89:2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—
            3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.

I"m not sure I agree with this....to the extent that random rules are given purely to test us.  

However, it is an effective test.  You either follow the rules or you don't.  We humans sure do love things spelled out for us.  This is one of those things and we will always push against rules that are spelled out. IMO.

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

Reject BY clear statement?  Which one?

The one I have now quoted for you three times.

The rest of your post and your third refusal to tell us that you believe D&C 89 to have been revealed by God makes it equally clear that you are faking concern about doctrinal development in order to try to stir up less-grounded Saints.