The Ban on Coffee

[Ahab]

40 minutes ago, california boy said:

No not at all.  I want to dispel the notion that you seem to have that BY was completely against alcohol at some point in his life.  I want to point out that the obedience to the WoW as the church lives it today is not the same as it was during BY's time and long after he died.  I want to dispel the idea that BY was as clear cut  adamant against alcohol as you seem to want to present.    You stated that the quote clearly outlines BY views on alcohol.  Obviously it is much more nuanced than that.  The wine industry that he started lasted into the 1920's.  So it is not like he changed his mind in his later years and shut down the production of wine in Southern Utah.

It would be a kind favor if you would go on to elaborate how he felt about it.  His main objective in producing and encouraging other members of the Church to produce wine was to use it for the sacrament service and to sell it for profit, but members of the Church drank too much of it that it grew to be more of a burden that it was worth.  Brigham said himself that he would rather the Church not drink it than drink too much of it, so the reason the Church no longer makes it, not even for sacrament services, is because there were too many members of the Church who were drinking too much of it.  In moderation it would probably be okay but too many people don't limit themselves to drinking it in moderation.  Some people are very weak when it comes to self control.

[SettingDogStar]

57 minutes ago, Ahab said:

It would be a kind favor if you would go on to elaborate how he felt about it.  His main objective in producing and encouraging other members of the Church to produce wine was to use it for the sacrament service and to sell it for profit, but members of the Church drank too much of it that it grew to be more of a burden that it was worth.  Brigham said himself that he would rather the Church not drink it than drink too much of it, so the reason the Church no longer makes it, not even for sacrament services, is because there were too many members of the Church who were drinking too much of it.  In moderation it would probably be okay but too many people don't limit themselves to drinking it in moderation.  Some people are very weak when it comes to self control.

But Brigham never formally stopped it because it continued into the 1920s. 

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

But Brigham never formally stopped it because it continued into the 1920s. 

Stopped what?  Members of the Church producing their own wine?  Some members of the Church still make their own wine even today, so yes you are right if you meant Brigham didn't stop everybody in the Church from making it.

He did say though that it would be better to not drink it rather than to drink too much of it.   I think the Prohibition had a lot to do with the current Church prohibition against drinking wine.  It went from counsel from the Lord to a commandment to not drink it.

So now we usually don't drink it. to conform to the Church's stance today regarding the counsel we have received from our Lord.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

I want to dispel the notion that you seem to have that BY was completely against alcohol at some point in his life. 

By all means, please provide post-1867 statements from Brigham Young wherein he endorsed the consumption of alcohol.

Quote

I want to point out that the obedience to the WoW as the church lives it today is not the same as it was during BY's time and long after he died.

The formulation given in General Conference by Brigham in 1867 was that the Saints abstain from tea, coffee, alcohol, and tobacco. Sound familiar?

[rpn]

On 10/20/2019 at 5:59 PM, Sanpitch said:

"Coffee:  Forget the warnings about coffee's link to cardiovascular issues.   A 2017 review of 400 studies determined that most people can safely drink up to 32 oz a day (sans sugar, of course).  Coffee is, in fact, the average American's leading source of antioxidants."

Seems to be fairly safe to me.  Any comments?

The scriptural reference is to hot drinks, and there is evidence that hot drinks are  contributing to throat cancer.

Quote

In 2016, the World Health Organization issued a report that found that drinking "very hot" beverages of any kind could potentially raise the cancer risk, and it classified them as "probably carcinogenic" to humans. ... In the U.S. and Europe, hot drinks are typically served at lower temperatures. 2016 statement from the World Health Organization (WHO) and a study from China published in the Annals of Internal Medicine in February 2018.

 Though I don't follow the WofW because of science, nor do I expect miracles for my health by adhering to it.   I do it because God (not Pres. Nelson) has established those guidelines.

[Maureen]

7 hours ago, Ahab said:

It is impossible for a person to stand on their head.  People stand with their feet, not their head.  When people turn themselves upside down and support the weight of their body on their head, they're not standing.  They're just being silly.

I found this quote kind of funny but also wanted to add that there are benefits and risks to hanging upside down. As you mentioned we can't stand on our head but we can place our head on a floor or ground type surface with our legs in the air for seconds at a time without it being silly but actually beneficial.

https://www.healthline.com/health/hanging-upside-down

M.

[SettingDogStar]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

By all means, please provide post-1867 statements from Brigham Young wherein he endorsed the consumption of alcohol.

The formulation given in General Conference by Brigham in 1867 was that the Saints abstain from tea, coffee, alcohol, and tobacco. Sound familiar?

According to historian Will Bagley, “Salt Lake City gadfly Josiah Gibbs noted that during 1868, when Salt Lake City controlled all liquor sales, Brigham Young purchased $128.25 worth of liquor—strictly for entertainment. That same year, the Deseret News itself spent $189.46 on liquor.”

Mark Twain visited Utah in 1861, then Nevada Territory, met Brigham Young and wrote about the pioneer whiskey: “The exclusive Mormon refresher; Valley Tan is a kind of whisky, or first cousin to it; is of Mormon invention and manufactured only in Utah. Tradition says it is made of [imported] fire and brimstone. If I remember rightly, no public drinking saloons were allowed in the kingdom by Brigham Young, and no private drinking permitted among the faithful, except they confined themselves to Valley Tan.” (from Roughing It, Mark Twain, 1872)

There’s post-1867 endorsement.

[Tacenda]

8 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

 

You missed the point ... badly.  Whooooooooosh!!!

I didn't, I'm just not in your place any longer. But give you props for your strong desire to fulfill your temple covenants!  Should have kept my big mouth or font, off!

[poptart]

Here's one, how would those of you who obey the WOW treat the likes of me who love their coffee? (aka liquid crack).  Guy I knew was cool, outright walked into a starbucks to meet me once, impression was that's not always the case.  Kinda had the impression i'd be treated the same as someone who walked in reeking of alcohol.  Even I would be offended with that one.

[SettingDogStar]

4 minutes ago, poptart said:

Here's one, how would those of you who obey the WOW treat the likes of me who love their coffee? (aka liquid crack).  Guy I knew was cool, outright walked into a starbucks to meet me once, impression was that's not always the case.  Kinda had the impression i'd be treated the same as someone who walked in reeking of alcohol.  Even I would be offended with that one.

Probably depends on your ward and the people in it. I’ve had home teachers and visiting teachers give me really weird looks when they see my coffee maker, but yet others don’t even notice.

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, poptart said:

Here's one, how would those of you who obey the WOW treat the likes of me who love their coffee? (aka liquid crack).  Guy I knew was cool, outright walked into a starbucks to meet me once, impression was that's not always the case.  Kinda had the impression i'd be treated the same as someone who walked in reeking of alcohol.  Even I would be offended with that one.

It's a pretty uncanny thing that coffee thing. It's really frowned upon in the church. Sometimes people go overboard big time with it being taboo. I remember sub'g in a kindergarten or 1st grade class and when doing a learning activity coffee was mention in the story or something, and this student reacted very badly to even the mention of coffee. Of course this school was in a heavily populated LDS area.

When I was sealed in the temple, my dad who was sealed to my mom, drank coffee because it helped his severe chronic back and leg pain, he was injured severly in his youth and he had tons of scar tissue from surgeries. Well in order to see me get married in the temple he had to get his temple recommend signed. The bishop told him if he switched to decaf coffee he would sign it. I doubt that would fly now. When I mentioned this to another ward member a while back, and thought it interesting because of caffeine being okay in soda drinks etc., she mentioned that coffee has the appearence of evil. So needless to say, this is what people are up against. And I doubt it will ever be okay in the WoW.

 

[sunstoned]

23 hours ago, Calm said:

Where in the blog does it say he was promoting his own brand in 67?  I did a search on "67" and found nothing.

Also, wish the author provided sources for some of his claims.  Much of the stuff he put up had nothing to do with BY himself, but just people using his name or image.

Perhaps 1967 is a bit early for Valley Tan.  But BY's association with the spirits industry in the Utah Territory is very well documented.  BY was at one time a promoter of both wine and spirits. The morphing of the WofW into what we have today with all the rules and restrictions came about long after BY.

Quote

in 1873 at Young’s request the territorial legislature granted him the exclusive right to manufacture and distribute whiskey and other spiritous liquors in Utah.  “Valley Tan” was the name of his principal brand. 

http://pre-prowhiskeymen.blogspot.com/2016/08/brigham-young-and-valley-tan-whiskey_18.html

Edited October 22, 2019 by sunstoned

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

Mark Twain visited Utah in 1861, then Nevada Territory, met Brigham Young and wrote about the pioneer whiskey: “The exclusive Mormon refresher; Valley Tan is a kind of whisky, or first cousin to it; is of Mormon invention and manufactured only in Utah. Tradition says it is made of [imported] fire and brimstone. If I remember rightly, no public drinking saloons were allowed in the kingdom by Brigham Young, and no private drinking permitted among the faithful, except they confined themselves to Valley Tan.” (from Roughing It, Mark Twain, 1872)

Given Twain’s flair for creative writing, I do not think it is safe to use him as a source for historical fact. The fire and brimstone comment makes it clear he isn’t taking it seriously but having fun with his writing. Thus he is likely prone to overstatements. 

[Calm]

34 minutes ago, poptart said:

Here's one, how would those of you who obey the WOW treat the likes of me who love their coffee? (aka liquid crack).  Guy I knew was cool, outright walked into a starbucks to meet me once, impression was that's not always the case.  Kinda had the impression i'd be treated the same as someone who walked in reeking of alcohol.  Even I would be offended with that one.

Coffee isn’t a sin for those who haven’t Covenanted not to drink it. No big deal, imo. 

Alcohol is a different issue because of drunkenness or removal of inhibitions that might lead to offensive or dangerous behaviour.  But again not a sin in and of itself. 

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

“1873 at Young’s request the territorial legislature granted him the exclusive right to manufacture and distribute whiskey and other spiritous liquors in Utah.  “Valley Tan” was the name of his principal brand. “

http://pre-prowhiskeymen.blogspot.com/2016/08/brigham-young-and-valley-tan-whiskey_18.html

Unfortunately your link does not provide documentation for its claim. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

44 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

There’s post-1867 endorsement.

Where? I read your entire post but couldn't find it.

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

The morphing of the WofW into what we have today with all the rules and restrictions came about long after BY.

The formulaic definition of the Word of Wisdom as abstention from alcohol, coffee, tea and tobacco was clearly stated by Brigham Young in General conference in 1867. He stated that He spoke in response to divine inspiration. You are wrong.

[sunstoned]

24 minutes ago, Calm said:

Unfortunately your link does not provide documentation for its claim. 

BYs involvement in alcohol production is well documented and well known.  It might be a uncomfortable fact, but it is a fact none the less. 

Quote

Brigham Young began distilling his own whiskey from wheat grown in the area around Salt Lake City

Monahan, S., & Perkins, J. (2017). The Golden Elixir of the West: Whiskey and the Shaping of America. Rowman & Littlefield. Page 43

 

Quote

The Mormon pioneers drank beer, and whiskey. Brigham Young had his own distillery that produced a hard, harsh liquid called Valley Tan which, according to Mark Twain was “their version of hellfire and brimstone.” 

https://utahstories.com/2013/03/fisher-brewing-company-part-i

 

This blog provides many references:

Quote

During the late 1800s, Utah had a thriving liquor industry. LDS Church President Brigham Young had no qualms about producing or selling alcohol. He built a distillery at the mouth of Parley’s Canyon and owned Salt Lake City’s first saloon. In 1861, Young had a winery established in Toquerville, in southern Utah, and received frequent shipments of 40-gallon barrels of port for “medicinal and family use.” The Mormon-owned mercantile ZCMI sold beer, wine and liquor, while the Deseret News regularly advertised home-brewing equipment to its readers, as well as alcohol such as Kentucky Bourbon and Old Tom Gin.

https://www.utahhumanities.org/stories/items/show/224

 

 

Quote

It was the exclusively Mormon refresher, ‘Valley Tan.’”  The author then explained: “Valley Tan is a kind of whisky, or first cousin to it; it is of Mormon invention and manufactured only in Utah. 

Mitchell, M. (1997). Gentile Impressions of Salt Lake City, Utah, 1849–1870. Geographical Review, 87(3), 334-352.

 

[sunstoned]

51 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

The formulaic definition of the Word of Wisdom as abstention from alcohol, coffee, tea and tobacco was clearly stated by Brigham Young in General conference in 1867. He stated that He spoke in response to divine inspiration. You are wrong.

No I'm not.  No revelation was produced.  He continued  distill whiskey long after 1867. (see my above post). General authorities continued to drink coffee well into the 20th century.  The WoW as we know it today was not in place in the 19th century.  

History is history.  Warts and all.  No one is judging BY for his actions.  The real problem is members who refuse to accept and acknowledge their church's history.  

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

BYs involvement in alcohol production is well documented and well known.  It might be a uncomfortable fact, but it is a fact none the less.

I have never denied that. I put up info in other threads about it. It is the specific claim I am wondering about, not to challenge but just to learn. 

[sunstoned]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

I have never denied that. I put up info in other threads about it. It is the specific claim I am wondering about, not to challenge but just to learn. 

I misunderstood.  You probably know more about this than I do.  All my understanding comes from internet articles.  

I am just having a hard time understanding why some folks seem to be upset by this.  JS and BY and other leaders used alcohol.  That was not uncommon, and was not considered a sin as long as it was in moderation.  I do not believe JS or BY drank hard liquor (distilled). I have found no real evidence of this.  Just wine, and maybe beer.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, sunstoned said:

I misunderstood.  You probably know more about this than I do.  All my understanding comes from internet articles.  

I am just having a hard time understanding why some folks seem to be upset by this.  JS and BY and other leaders used alcohol.  That was not uncommon, and was not considered a sin as long as it was in moderation.  I do not believe JS or BY drank hard liquor (distilled). I have found no real evidence of this.  Just wine, and maybe beer.

I think the issue is not the association (though it seems overstated at times imo), but it is the claimed disconnect between the early position and the current one on the WoW. Some of us see it as a natural progression given the changing environment and options available. 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, sunstoned said:

No one is judging BY for his actions.  The real problem is members who refuse to accept and acknowledge their church's history.  

Mate, as far as I can tell, no one on this thread gives a damn whether Brigham 'fleeced the Gentiles' (his term) by distilling and vending whisky. I don't even care if he drank it himself at some point. That possibility doesn't 'upset' me in any way. But you're the one who's ignoring the history. By 1867, Brigham was teaching the Word of Wisdom to the Saints in General Conference in the exact same formulation that we use it today in worthiness interviews: no alcohol, coffee, tea, or tobacco. And you can ignore his claim to revelation by making unreasonable demands that revelations be written down before being spoken aloud, but he claimed to be acting under inspiration. I know there's a popular narrative out there in your chosen 'internet articles', but it's not accurate.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Bernard Gui]

On 10/20/2019 at 3:38 PM, JulieM said:

I wonder if it’s because the youth love Starbucks (or at least many of them do from observing youth in our ward).  It’s cool to show up holding a Starbucks cup even if it’s just a smoothie.  They love to announce they’re going there as if it’s cool to do.  And, we have many come to activities with the small bottles of Starbucks coffee drinks from supermarkets, etc.  I don’t know if this is why, but it’s what I’m seeing as a YW leader.

Do you remind them of the Word of Wisdom or that obeying it is a requirement for a temple recommend?

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, sunstoned said:

I misunderstood.  You probably know more about this than I do.  All my understanding comes from internet articles.  

I am just having a hard time understanding why some folks seem to be upset by this.  JS and BY and other leaders used alcohol.  That was not uncommon, and was not considered a sin as long as it was in moderation.  I do not believe JS or BY drank hard liquor (distilled). I have found no real evidence of this.  Just wine, and maybe beer.

From my study of the evolution of the Word of Wisdom in the Journal of Discourses, I learned that some years after the arrival of the Saints in Utah, a few leaders brought up the question of what to do with that revelation. Up until then it had been on the back burner, but now that the Church was settling down in relative peace and prosperity, some were interested in examining it and taking it seriously. Attempts were made to bring it to the attention of the members, but their efforts were mostly unsuccessful for several reasons.

Converts coming to Zion brought their old habits with them. Despite efforts to teach it as doctrine, many had difficulty giving them up. As a result, the leaders decided to leave the older generation alone and concentrate on teaching it to the youth. Through this emphasis of teaching the youth it became a hallmark of the Church, and eventually it was codified in worthiness standards.

Part of the problem was economical. Tobacco and other substances were being imported from back East, which resulted in money flowing out of Zion. BY and other leaders decided that if they couldn’t get the members to give those things up, it would be better to produce them locally and keep the money at home. BY and others were up front about their weaknesses and inability to observe the WoW fully.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Bernard Gui