Bernard Gui Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 (edited) I’v often wondered about this scene. Today it occurred to me that the cherubim and flaming sword represent the strict enforcement of the law of justice. Am I late to the game? Your thoughts? Quote Alma 42:2 For behold, after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground, from whence they were taken—yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life— 3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit— 4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God. Edited October 1, 2019 by Bernard Gui 1
ksfisher Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 12 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: I’v often wondered about this scene. Today it occurred to me that the cherubim and flaming sword represent the strict enforcement of the law of justice. Am I late to the game? Your thoughts? Symbols can have several different meaning. I think of the cherubim and sword as the direction time flows. Time flows only in one direction, forward. Once something is done, it's done and you can't go back and undo it. In a like manner we're always aging. We can't stop time and not age (live forever) or go back in time and get younger. 2
Ahab Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 29 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: I’v often wondered about this scene. Today it occurred to me that the cherubim and flaming sword represent the strict enforcement of the law of justice. Am I late to the game? Your thoughts? Hmm, seems to me the cherubim were placed there to uphold mercy, rather than justice, because with those cherubim there to prevent Adam and Eve from eating from the tree of life, Adam and Eve then had some time to prepare to return to God in a better state than they were in after they had eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, knowing then that they had chosen to transgress the command of God by gaining that knowledge of good and evil. If they had eaten from the tree of life immediately after they had eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would have been subject to Satan forever, not having much if any time to show they were willing to follow God's commandments. 2
bluebell Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 I've always assumed the cherubim and flaming sword were meant to keep Adam and Eve from eating the fruit because if they had, they would have instantly been damned because it would have made it impossible for them to have had a mortal probation, with the Atonement having no ability to be applied to their sins. 1
poptart Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 I really wish they'd emphasize things like that more. One big takeaway from the bible should be don't make God angry.
Ahab Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 2 minutes ago, poptart said: I really wish they'd emphasize things like that more. One big takeaway from the bible should be don't make God angry. ... or if you do find out how to make him happy again! Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, some people say. Somewhere along the path of wisdom we also need to know how to help him be happy with us when we see he isn't.
Popular Post Calm Posted October 1, 2019 Popular Post Posted October 1, 2019 You might be interested in the correct form that has "sword" and not "word": Quote Nephi’s vision of the Tree of Life (1 Nephi 11-15) contains imagery that ties into the description in Genesis/Moses of ‘a flaming sword…[keeping] the way to the tree of life’, but only after correcting for an apparent typographical error in the current editions of the Book of Mormon. Royal Skousen, as part of his Book of Mormon critical text project, has reached the conclusion that 1 Nephi 12:18 in the original Book of Mormon manuscript (which still exists for that passage) says the following: …and a great and terrible gulf divideth them yea even the sword of the justice of the eternal God…1 (emphasis added) Note that this differs from our current edition of the Book of Mormon, which reads “word” instead of “sword”.2 This passage describes that which divides the wicked in the ‘great and spacious building’ from the Tree of Life, namely, ‘the sword of the justice of the eternal God’. http://adventures-in-mormonism.com/2008/01/25/cherubim-and-a-flaming-sword-a-brief-note/ The whole blog article is relevant to the topic. 5
Ahab Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Calm said: You might be interested in the correct form that has "sword" and not "word": http://adventures-in-mormonism.com/2008/01/25/cherubim-and-a-flaming-sword-a-brief-note/ The whole blog article is relevant to the topic. I'm not seeing where in our current edition of the Book of Mormon it reads word instead of sword, but I'm getting a little more from this than I got before. The sword itself represents the justice of God but it is because of the mercy of God that the cherubim with the sword is placed there. I'm getting imagery of the sword basically scaring Adam and Eve away from eating from the tree of life, at that time, because they knew what the judgment of God would have been if they did then. So they needed time to prepare, to show they were willing to follow God's commandments, after they had just transgressed. Edited to note that I just found what i didn't see before, after looking at 1 Nephi 12:18, but I don't think that necessarily means Lehi or Nephi was talking about the cherubim with the flaming sword then. Edited October 1, 2019 by Ahab
Robert F. Smith Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 2 hours ago, ksfisher said: Symbols can have several different meaning. I think of the cherubim and sword as the direction time flows. Time flows only in one direction, forward. Once something is done, it's done and you can't go back and undo it. In a like manner we're always aging. We can't stop time and not age (live forever) or go back in time and get younger. Yet, in the First Resurrection, your body will go back in time and become younger. Yet, in the Garden Story/Liturgy, time disappears and priesthood leaders from a later dispensation suddenly appear in the first dispensation with authority from their Master. How is that possible? Can time flow both directions? Apparently so.
poptart Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 1 hour ago, Ahab said: ... or if you do find out how to make him happy again! Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, some people say. Somewhere along the path of wisdom we also need to know how to help him be happy with us when we see he isn't. Uhh, follow the rules? Think there were 10 of em plus a few hammered out later on, last time I checked they were quite reasonable. Amazing how most chose not to follow em....
Bernard Gui Posted October 1, 2019 Author Posted October 1, 2019 (edited) 22 hours ago, Ahab said: Hmm, seems to me the cherubim were placed there to uphold mercy, rather than justice, because with those cherubim there to prevent Adam and Eve from eating from the tree of life, Adam and Eve then had some time to prepare to return to God in a better state than they were in after they had eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, knowing then that they had chosen to transgress the command of God by gaining that knowledge of good and evil. If they had eaten from the tree of life immediately after they had eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would have been subject to Satan forever, not having much if any time to show they were willing to follow God's commandments. The cherubim and sword were placed there to defend the purity of the Tree and prevent Adam and Eve from partaking of the fruit of the Tree of Life because they had sinned, symbolizing the Jaw of Justice. The act of mercy is providing a Savior for them so that they could approach it and partake again. That's the way I see it. Edited October 2, 2019 by Bernard Gui 3
Ryan Dahle Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: I’v often wondered about this scene. Today it occurred to me that the cherubim and flaming sword represent the strict enforcement of the law of justice. Am I late to the game? Your thoughts? This may have some insights worth looking into: https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/how-are-rod-and-sword-connected-to-the-word-of-god 1
ksfisher Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 28 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yet, in the First Resurrection, your body will go back in time and become younger. I guess that's one way of looking at it. I've never considered it as my body becoming younger. Rather a body is restored to us. I don't see going back in time as being necessary for this to happen. 29 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yet, in the Garden Story/Liturgy, time disappears and priesthood leaders from a later dispensation suddenly appear in the first dispensation with authority from their Master. How is that possible? Can time flow both directions? Apparently so. I don't consider the temple narrative as being literal, but symbolic. I don't see that we need to understand it as being priesthood leaders going back in time. Rather they are representative of the priesthood authority and teachers God sends to the earth.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 3 minutes ago, ksfisher said: ........................... I don't consider the temple narrative as being literal, but symbolic. I don't see that we need to understand it as being priesthood leaders going back in time. Rather they are representative of the priesthood authority and teachers God sends to the earth. Yet that could as easily have been done with other venerated figures or even angels. There is something truly odd about collapsing time itself in such a "symbolic" way. 1
RevTestament Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 1 hour ago, Calm said: You might be interested in the correct form that has "sword" and not "word": http://adventures-in-mormonism.com/2008/01/25/cherubim-and-a-flaming-sword-a-brief-note/ The whole blog article is relevant to the topic. Interesting "misprint." I would say the sword represents the word of God, and therefore His justice - so even if it was a misprint, it was an accurate one.... One must come to God through the word to be able to finally eat of the tree of life. Everyone is equal under God's justice. He is no respecter of persons... so to be like Yeshua, we must follow Yeshua rather than just talk the talk... something modern Christianity often fails miserably at teaching. Anyway, it seems to me it was there from the beginning.... 1
LoudmouthMormon Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 I prefer my literal interpretation merged with my imagination, thank you very much.
SettingDogStar Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 1. If it was literally a flaming sword, that means it was a celestial lightsaber. 2. I’ve wondered if it had something to do with a sexual analogy. Being as the Gnostics love this idea, a melding of man and women, it would make sense that what we have might have that influence. The sword is a mans sex organs, the garden is the womb (a place of peace and creation). The sword “guards the way of the tree of life” because it is the key whereby by life may be created and saved, for without procreation our potential to became like God would cease. 1
Ahab Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 46 minutes ago, poptart said: Uhh, follow the rules? Think there were 10 of em plus a few hammered out later on, last time I checked they were quite reasonable. Amazing how most chose not to follow em.... Yeah well those 10 and any others there are along with what I think is the most important one. To repent when we mess up on anything. That, to my mind, is the clincher!
Maidservant Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: justice. 2 hours ago, bluebell said: I've always assumed the cherubim and flaming sword were meant to keep Adam and Eve from eating the fruit because if they had, they would have instantly been damned because it would have made it impossible for them to have had a mortal probation, with the Atonement having no ability to be applied to their sins. I do agree with what was said that the symbols can mean different things. But riffing off of this particular significance, I think that the real discussion is what justice itself means. When I attend the temple (and corrollary, read and ponder Genesis), I see a map of progression--i.e. where we are supposed to go in order to effect our progression. We are absolutely to eat of the tree of Life, but in order to do so, must pass through the cherubim and sword. The wider meaning of this (to me) is our participation in what we are calling mortal life. To the degree that cherubim/flaming sword=earth life, and particularly a certain Way (Christ) of living earth life. Earth life is one massive justice function machine, where 'justice' remains misunderstood thus far, but which comes down to, in my understanding, the law of the harvest; but not on a one to one correspondence like do bad thing, bad thing happens and do good thing, good thing happens, which we know by experience isn't really how it works at all, it's quite a bit more nuanced and complicated. Justice is a principle of restoration and being added upon, not of punishment and getting things taken away. So, yes, real justice; but not the justice that is mistakenly (in my opinion) imagined. In other words, passing through the cherubim and sword is not forbidden, it is invited, for the purpose of sin being cleansed to receive the fruit of the tree. And passing through the cherubim and sword is not a bad thing, but instead intense--the cleansing and growth we may experience. 4
Maidservant Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 12 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said: a melding of man and women The tree of life is, among other things, the union of male and female, cosmically, and in more concrete expressions; yes. There are depictions of the tree with the man and woman bound up with one another, that make the trunk and branches.
bluebell Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 16 minutes ago, Maidservant said: I do agree with what was said that the symbols can mean different things. But riffing off of this particular significance, I think that the real discussion is what justice itself means. When I attend the temple (and corrollary, read and ponder Genesis), I see a map of progression--i.e. where we are supposed to go in order to effect our progression. We are absolutely to eat of the tree of Life, but in order to do so, must pass through the cherubim and sword. The wider meaning of this (to me) is our participation in what we are calling mortal life. To the degree that cherubim/flaming sword=earth life, and particularly a certain Way (Christ) of living earth life. Earth life is one massive justice function machine, where 'justice' remains misunderstood thus far, but which comes down to, in my understanding, the law of the harvest; but not on a one to one correspondence like do bad thing, bad thing happens and do good thing, good thing happens, which we know by experience isn't really how it works at all, it's quite a bit more nuanced and complicated. Justice is a principle of restoration and being added upon, not of punishment and getting things taken away. So, yes, real justice; but not the justice that is mistakenly (in my opinion) imagined. In other words, passing through the cherubim and sword is not forbidden, it is invited, for the purpose of sin being cleansed to receive the fruit of the tree. And passing through the cherubim and sword is not a bad thing, but instead intense--the cleansing and growth we may experience. That's an interesting way to look at it, thanks for sharing that with me. I used to see it as the Justice of God and then the Mercy of God but as I've been studying 1 and 2 Nephi I'm starting to see the Atonement as the embodiment of the Justice of God, or rather, that the justice of God is the Atonement, as there is no justice in this life without offering mercy. 1
Ahab Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 15 minutes ago, Maidservant said: The tree of life is, among other things, the union of male and female, cosmically, and in more concrete expressions; yes. There are depictions of the tree with the man and woman bound up with one another, that make the trunk and branches. Awesome, some more wonderful imagery just came to my mind! A family tree! You know, like in geneology aka family history. Access to the actual people in ours, both in the past and on, on, on to infinity and beyond! You know, like Buzz Lightyear says so. Well, that's as far as my imagery goes, but kinda like that! 1
JLHPROF Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yet, in the Garden Story/Liturgy, time disappears and priesthood leaders from a later dispensation suddenly appear in the first dispensation with authority from their Master. Either that or it's not actually the first dispensation being depicted. 😉
JLHPROF Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 29 minutes ago, Maidservant said: The tree of life is, among other things, the union of male and female, cosmically, and in more concrete expressions; yes. There are depictions of the tree with the man and woman bound up with one another, that make the trunk and branches. Interesting, especially when you consider the meaning of the fig leaves, apron, and fruit, along with Eve's statement about having children. 1
JLHPROF Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 1 hour ago, ksfisher said: I don't consider the temple narrative as being literal, but symbolic. I believe it represents a literal historical event couched in symbolism. Both literal and symbolic.
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