ksfisher Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I believe it represents a literal historical event couched in symbolism. Both literal and symbolic. I'm fine with that. I think the symbolic elements are move heavily present than the literal, but that's just my opinion.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: I’v often wondered about this scene. Today it occurred to me that the cherubim and flaming sword represent the strict enforcement of the law of justice. Am I late to the game? Your thoughts? In Genesis 1:26, we see the first mention of man, “male and female”, being created in the image of God, using the terms of (as it relates to God and Deity, as “us and our image”. This type of language, that appears almost nowhere else in Scripture, (excluding the Doctrine and Covenants) other than Alma, which you referenced. But also in Genesis 3:22, where Adam and Eve are referred to again, as “becoming one of us”, and then the warning of what would happen concerning the “tree of life, and eat, and live for ever”. In verse 23, banned from the Graden, and verse 24, placing “Cherubims, and a flaming sword”. In Genesis is says “Cherubim(s)” plural, or “Angels”, not necessarily the name of one Angel. Because of what I was taught by my Father the Minister, and then the teachings in the Temple, I have heard my Father tell me, and others who suggested to me, that maybe there were two specific trees. The “Tree of Life”, which made Adam and Eve “Immortal”, by eating from it, and of course the “Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil”, that gave them knowledge, making them like God, or to use the words of God, “like one of us”. At this point, as we are taught in the Temple, they had to be kept from the “Tree of Life”, or they would, “live forever in their sins”. Some of what I am saying are the words scripture, and some maybe just conjecture by others because the entire story unfolds in three very short chapters in Genesis 1-3, in very few verses. Which may explain why so many, outside our Faith have less teaching as it relates to these topics. We “thankfully”, have the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. Even more notability in the PoGP, “The Book of Moses”, which is gives us powerful scripture and teachings, and a fantastic understanding of the Atonement, given via Enoch in Moses 6:58-60. The Atonement, made necessary due to “The Fall”, and the understanding within the context of your OP.
poptart Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 1 hour ago, Ahab said: Yeah well those 10 and any others there are along with what I think is the most important one. To repent when we mess up on anything. That, to my mind, is the clincher! Nah, actions have consequences. People are too entitled as it is and need to be brought to heel.
Ahab Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 4 minutes ago, poptart said: Nah, actions have consequences. People are too entitled as it is and need to be brought to heel. Yeah, well, good thing for us that our Father in heaven doesn't feel that way. He is like over the top nice as long as I repent and I am loving every minute of it!
Maidservant Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 2 hours ago, bluebell said: I used to see it as the Justice of God and then the Mercy of God but as I've been studying 1 and 2 Nephi I'm starting to see the Atonement as the embodiment of the Justice of God, or rather, that the justice of God is the Atonement, as there is no justice in this life without offering mercy. I one hundred percent agree. Justice and mercy are basically the same thing, as God metes them. Atonement and justice both mean (among other things) to be made just, i.e. a restoration of what was once lost. 2 hours ago, Ahab said: Awesome, some more wonderful imagery just came to my mind! A family tree! You know, like in geneology aka family history. Access to the actual people in ours, both in the past and on, on, on to infinity and beyond! You know, like Buzz Lightyear says so. Well, that's as far as my imagery goes, but kinda like that! Nice. 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Interesting, especially when you consider the meaning of the fig leaves, apron, and fruit, along with Eve's statement about having children. Nice. Still pondering all that. 2
Calm Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, bluebell said: That's an interesting way to look at it, thanks for sharing that with me. I used to see it as the Justice of God and then the Mercy of God but as I've been studying 1 and 2 Nephi I'm starting to see the Atonement as the embodiment of the Justice of God, or rather, that the justice of God is the Atonement, as there is no justice in this life without offering mercy. The picture that went with the blog I linked to (a favorite, I have it on my bedroom wall) has the sword as a 'levitating' cross symbol full of light and the Cherubim are in intent focus/study and prayer over it rather than looking out to check for anyone sneaking back in. Thus the sword becomes a symbol of the Atonement (bringing further light and knowledge). here is the link again since it is on another page. http://adventures-in-mormonism.com/2008/01/25/cherubim-and-a-flaming-sword-a-brief-note/ Edited October 1, 2019 by Calm 2
RevTestament Posted October 2, 2019 Posted October 2, 2019 7 hours ago, SettingDogStar said: 1. If it was literally a flaming sword, that means it was a celestial lightsaber. 2. I’ve wondered if it had something to do with a sexual analogy. Being as the Gnostics love this idea, a melding of man and women, it would make sense that what we have might have that influence. The sword is a mans sex organs, the garden is the womb (a place of peace and creation). The sword “guards the way of the tree of life” because it is the key whereby by life may be created and saved, for without procreation our potential to became like God would cease. God procreates through His word.
SettingDogStar Posted October 2, 2019 Posted October 2, 2019 1 minute ago, RevTestament said: God procreates through His word. But we don’t. Without procreation we could not be saved because the Christ could not have been born. Plus all mankind could not have come into existence without procreation. PLUS husbands and wives could not enjoy the happiness of children and family. Procreation is the closest thing we humans have to being like God..next to having the power to choose I would suppose.
poptart Posted October 2, 2019 Posted October 2, 2019 7 hours ago, Ahab said: Yeah, well, good thing for us that our Father in heaven doesn't feel that way. He is like over the top nice as long as I repent and I am loving every minute of it! I somehow doubt my ideas of deity are the same as yours, most people here stateside worship a deity of entitlement and excess, one they assume will always clean up the mess they make for themselves. I can't speak for you, don't know you well enough. Will say, I am enjoying watching people running out of places to flee and the rest of us in this country telling them enough is enough. Seeing their kind fail does put a smile on my face, esp. when I know i've been right all along. Bonus points for seeing the entitled develop mental delusions and excuses for the problems they've created for themselves. I have a bit of a mean streak sometimes~
Bernard Gui Posted October 2, 2019 Author Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) 19 hours ago, Maidservant said: I do agree with what was said that the symbols can mean different things. But riffing off of this particular significance, I think that the real discussion is what justice itself means. When I attend the temple (and corrollary, read and ponder Genesis), I see a map of progression--i.e. where we are supposed to go in order to effect our progression. We are absolutely to eat of the tree of Life, but in order to do so, must pass through the cherubim and sword. The wider meaning of this (to me) is our participation in what we are calling mortal life. To the degree that cherubim/flaming sword=earth life, and particularly a certain Way (Christ) of living earth life. Earth life is one massive justice function machine, where 'justice' remains misunderstood thus far, but which comes down to, in my understanding, the law of the harvest; but not on a one to one correspondence like do bad thing, bad thing happens and do good thing, good thing happens, which we know by experience isn't really how it works at all, it's quite a bit more nuanced and complicated. Justice is a principle of restoration and being added upon, not of punishment and getting things taken away. So, yes, real justice; but not the justice that is mistakenly (in my opinion) imagined. In other words, passing through the cherubim and sword is not forbidden, it is invited, for the purpose of sin being cleansed to receive the fruit of the tree. And passing through the cherubim and sword is not a bad thing, but instead intense--the cleansing and growth we may experience. This passage from the same chapter indicates to me that justice is a principle of punishment that can only be remedied by the principle of mercy. Both are godly principles but are opposing forces. Those guardians of the Tree of Life are fearsome reminders of the seriousness of sin. Quote 14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence. 15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also. 16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul. 17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment? 18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man. 19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder? 20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin. 21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature? 22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God. 23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice. 24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved. 25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God. Edited October 2, 2019 by Bernard Gui 1
Ahab Posted October 2, 2019 Posted October 2, 2019 10 hours ago, poptart said: I somehow doubt my ideas of deity are the same as yours, most people here stateside worship a deity of entitlement and excess, one they assume will always clean up the mess they make for themselves. I can't speak for you, don't know you well enough. Will say, I am enjoying watching people running out of places to flee and the rest of us in this country telling them enough is enough. Seeing their kind fail does put a smile on my face, esp. when I know i've been right all along. Bonus points for seeing the entitled develop mental delusions and excuses for the problems they've created for themselves. I have a bit of a mean streak sometimes~ Interesting to me that all of this was in response to me stating how thankful I am for the principle of Repentance. Repentance comes after doing bad/evil things, when people realize they have done something bad/evil and then repent to change their bad/evil ways. So even if people do EVERY SINGLE bad/evil thing that you can imagine, including being so bad/evil to mock God's grace which wipes our slate clean of any bad/evil thing we have done as long as we repent for it, the only only option available for everyone is for there to be absolutely no way to have our slate wiped clean from any bad/evil thing we have EVER done and then join Satan to party with him. You can do that, of course, if you really want to, but I'd rather have some way to be forgiven and have my slate wiped clean than to hang out with all of those party animals who either just refused to repent, maybe because they thought repentance was stupid, or didn't want anyone else to repent either. 1
poptart Posted October 2, 2019 Posted October 2, 2019 24 minutes ago, Ahab said: Interesting to me that all of this was in response to me stating how thankful I am for the principle of Repentance. Repentance comes after doing bad/evil things, when people realize they have done something bad/evil and then repent to change their bad/evil ways. So even if people do EVERY SINGLE bad/evil thing that you can imagine, including being so bad/evil to mock God's grace which wipes our slate clean of any bad/evil thing we have done as long as we repent for it, the only only option available for everyone is for there to be absolutely no way to have our slate wiped clean from any bad/evil thing we have EVER done and then join Satan to party with him. You can do that, of course, if you really want to, but I'd rather have some way to be forgiven and have my slate wiped clean than to hang out with all of those party animals who either just refused to repent, maybe because they thought repentance was stupid, or didn't want anyone else to repent either. Ok now you have my attention, sorry my bad. Most of my life the Christians i've known esp. stateside were among the nastier people i've met. Racist, mean, entitled people who felt like it was their right to just step on people, yet when karma comes back to bite them they cry woe is me and cherry pick the bible with verses judge not lest ye be judged while ignoring other parts like go your way and sin no more. Repentance is hard work, besides correcting errors it also involves restitution of some sort. Even if it's small, I say something should be done be it community service or some small deed of piety. I know most people chose not to live as such, look at the state of the USA and the destruction of the family. I very much do believe in holding people accountable for their actions, so many appologize yet keep on making bad choices that not only harm them but also those around them. Look at social media, anymore the moment some people they don't get their way they go to facebook to digitally lynch someone and possibly ruin their career. Now we live in a society were -people are terrified of someone wanting revenge for a slight, that or someone just snapping and taking their frustrations out on someone else. Could have easily prevented this if people were kinder and thought twice before they acted. You're a good guy, you have my respect.
Ahab Posted October 2, 2019 Posted October 2, 2019 12 minutes ago, poptart said: Ok now you have my attention, sorry my bad. Most of my life the Christians i've known esp. stateside were among the nastier people i've met. Racist, mean, entitled people who felt like it was their right to just step on people, yet when karma comes back to bite them they cry woe is me and cherry pick the bible with verses judge not lest ye be judged while ignoring other parts like go your way and sin no more. Repentance is hard work, besides correcting errors it also involves restitution of some sort. Even if it's small, I say something should be done be it community service or some small deed of piety. I know most people chose not to live as such, look at the state of the USA and the destruction of the family. I very much do believe in holding people accountable for their actions, so many appologize yet keep on making bad choices that not only harm them but also those around them. Look at social media, anymore the moment some people they don't get their way they go to facebook to digitally lynch someone and possibly ruin their career. Now we live in a society were -people are terrified of someone wanting revenge for a slight, that or someone just snapping and taking their frustrations out on someone else. Could have easily prevented this if people were kinder and thought twice before they acted. You're a good guy, you have my respect. Yeah I know the type and may have even been one of them at some point in my past. Reality, as I call it, or karma as you call it, does have a way of making all of our actions come back to us in the form of consequences for those actions. And I think having those kinds of moments can help us, anyone, who does something bad/evil, or what I call stupid, to avoid doing those bad/evil/stupid things once we see they do have some negative consequences. So it's a learning process, as I see it. We do stupid things and then see that those stupid things result in bad consequences and then, hopefully soon, we see that it is better to just acknowledge that those things we did were stupid things for us to do while we, hopefully, try to not ever do those bad/evil/stupid things again in our lives. And I see repentance as a deed of piety. When we repent we have humbled ourselves enough to be able to at least self acknowledge that we have done something stupid/bad/evil and we are then endeavoring to not do those stupid/bad/evil things again in our life. If we're able to do more than that, like returning something we have stolen, we should do that as well, and maybe acknowledge to them that we realize we have done something bad/evil/stupid and are trying to avoid doing anything like that again, then we should do that too, but really there is nothing we can do to undo the bad/stupid/evil thing we have done in our past. We can receive forgiveness and have those things not held against us anymore, but if we're ever going to get to the point that we know absolutely everything about everything then we are always going to remember all of the bad/evil/stupid things we ever did. And hopefully, that will be enough to help us to avoid doing those bad/evil/stupid things ever again.
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