Sam Young Back in the News

[smac97]

12 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Yes, of course I know that.  But I believe they should all take place with another adult present (two deep) as standard procedure or policy.  You can disagree and I respect that....I'm just stating how I feel about those mandatory interviews.

If asked as is done in a worthiness interview for adults, I agree ("Do you live the law of chastity?").  But initiating a conversation about masturbation or any other sexual topic should be avoided and off limits, IMO.

It sounds like we agree a lot more than we disagree.  Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

-Smac

[smac97]

7 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Again ignoring the Sam Young (and SL Tribune) issues I think the Church could still do better with training. I'd like to see more online training particularly with actors demoing difficult scenarios.

I am very much in agreement with you.  As a lawyer, I regularly take CLE ("Continuing Legal Education") courses.  I think the Church could have something like CBE ("Continuing Bishop Education") courses.  These could include short videos with role playing to help bishops understand how to address important topics without getting into inappropriate areas.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited July 29, 2019 by smac97

[Calm]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

Here:

It looks like there were about 23-24 people in the audience.  Plus, Sam Young was wearing, well, a flag as a cape:

This seems a little . . . off.  (FWIW, the Trib's article on this same story does not include any references to or pictures of Mr. Young's regalia.)

I can see wearing a cape when walking around as it is similar to a sandwich board, but more comfortable. However, doesn’t make a lot of sense at a press conference unless one is trying to establish a sort of brand, a look. 

Unfortunately the rest of his attire doesn’t really work together so it seems more random than thought out, so while attention getting I think it creates a negative impression that allows him to be easier to dismiss as a crackpot. 

Someone should give him some dress for success advice. 

Edited July 29, 2019 by Calm

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

I am very much in agreement with you.  As a lawyer, I regularly take CLE ("Continuing Legal Education") courses.  I think the Church could have something like CBE ("Continuing Bishop Education") courses.  These could include short videos with role playing to help bishops understand how to address important topics without getting into inappropriate areas.

Thanks,

-Smac

I am sure all the Bishops would love one more thing they have to do. Well, unless it means they can skip out on a welfare interview. I mean seriously, I am tired of your excuses, GET A JOB!

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I can see wearing a cape when walking around as it is similar to a sandwich board, but more comfortable. However, doesn’t make a lot of sense at a press conference unless one is trying to establish a sort of brand, a look. 

Unfortunately the rest of his attire doesn’t really work together so it seems more random than thought out, so while attention getting I think it creates a negative impression that allows him to be easier to dismiss as a crackpot. 

Someone should give him some dress for success advice. 

He needs something colorful that matches the cape to convey the gravitas he is going for. Something like this perhaps:

 

[Amulek]

19 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

He needs something colorful that matches the cape to convey the gravitas he is going for. Something like this perhaps:

I'm not seeing your attached image, but I'm going to go out on a limb and assume it's a luchadores' mask.  

 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I can see wearing a cape when walking around as it is similar to a sandwich board, but more comfortable. However, doesn’t make a lot of sense at a press conference unless one is trying to establish a sort of brand, a look. 

Unfortunately the rest of his attire doesn’t really work together so it seems more random than thought out, so while attention getting I think it creates a negative impression that allows him to be easier to dismiss as a crackpot. 

Someone should give him some dress for success advice. 

I think they had climbed up a mountain top that morning several miles and put up a flag maybe? Can't remember, but you could see his FB page has lots of hikes like that, so maybe that's why he was wearing shorts. Just read through his page and yes, he did indeed hike yesterday, this time Ensign Peak. 

[smac97]

38 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am sure all the Bishops would love one more thing they have to do.

I think bishops would appreciate getting training on this.  It feels more important than, say, the particulars of a semi-annual financial audit.

Quote

He needs something colorful that matches the cape to convey the gravitas he is going for. Something like this perhaps:

Gravitas ≠ Cape + Baseball hat + Button-down Shirt + Tie + Grungy Shorts + Hiking Boots + Press Conference (in a bar).

😀

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited July 29, 2019 by smac97

[USU78]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I can see wearing a cape when walking around as it is similar to a sandwich board, but more comfortable. However, doesn’t make a lot of sense at a press conference unless one is trying to establish a sort of brand, a look. 

Unfortunately the rest of his attire doesn’t really work together so it seems more random than thought out, so while attention getting I think it creates a negative impression that allows him to be easier to dismiss as a crackpot. 

Someone should give him some dress for success advice. 

Looks like he fancies himself Captain Moroni. 

[USU78]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I can see wearing a cape when walking around as it is similar to a sandwich board, but more comfortable. However, doesn’t make a lot of sense at a press conference unless one is trying to establish a sort of brand, a look. 

Unfortunately the rest of his attire doesn’t really work together so it seems more random than thought out, so while attention getting I think it creates a negative impression that allows him to be easier to dismiss as a crackpot. 

Someone should give him some dress for success advice. 

Maybe one of the Queer Eye guys is available.

[The Nehor]

45 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think bishops would appreciate getting training on this.  It feels more important than, say, the particulars of a semi-annual financial audit.

Gravitas ≠ Cape + Baseball hat + Button-down Shirt + Tie + Grungy Shorts + Hiking Boots + Press Conference (in a bar).

😀

Thanks,

-Smac

You had to remind me about the audit. I need to start fasting and praying that we do not get the auditor that makes it a three to four hour affair.

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You had to remind me about the audit. I need to start fasting and praying that we do not get the auditor that makes it a three to four hour affair.

Never fear!  Tithing settlement is coming up in a few months!  😁

Thanks,

-Smac

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, smac97 said:

Here:

It looks like there were about 23-24 people in the audience.  Plus, Sam Young was wearing, well, a flag as a cape:......................

When I was a kid, we followed a great character on TV called "Crusader Rabbit."  

[Tacenda]

54 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Maybe one of the Queer Eye guys is available.

Have you watched the new Queer Eye seasons on Netflix? Absolutely love them and how they help change lives for the better.

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

You had to remind me about the audit. I need to start fasting and praying that we do not get the auditor that makes it a three to four hour affair.

I am a stake auditor and I try to make it go as fast and painless as possible. 45 minutes tops.

[rpn]

Sam Young collected many stories, some vetted, that reported being asked as a child and young adult details about  sexual feelings and actions.   If any of them are accurate, they are just plain wrong.  What the church calls "Self-abuse" is a matter of not yet developing spirit to be in full control of mortal body with all its parts and passions (much like yelling at others is the same).      And bishops have no legitimate need to ask any details beyond have you committed fornication or adultery and maybe whether it is more than once and to some extent whether it was fully consensual (same age, same experience, no social coercion, no mood altering substances.  (The youth guidelines expressly limit a bishop to asking if you keep the Law of Chastity, and directing youth back to parent if they don't act like they know what it means, so bishops cannot use the excuse that kids asked for an explanation now.) 

Unless it has been changed recently, the handbook still uses the term  "forcible rape", which could lead some people/bishops to think that anyone without bruises and physical damage hasn't actually been raped and therefore the member needs to be disciplined ----  there are lots of report of this kind of thing, and if they are being trained otherwise and consistent with what we know about how rape effects survivors, it certainly hasn't been disclosed so church members know about it.  

My own take is that the largest need in the church is to train parents to be fully knowledgeable about human intimacy and the doctrine (read/view "Of Souls Symbols and Sacraments) and make sure their children know all about sexuality in context of those covenants.   And that they expressly tell their children that if they ever feel uncomfortable in any way with what a church leader  or member (or a school teacher, coach, their boss, etc.) does or asks them to do, they have agency to get up and walk away, and tell parents immediately, who will help them go through the process of confirming with the spirit, or not whatever the leader asked or requested.  That getting up and walking out is not a sign of rebellion, but a sign of confidence that they too can get personal revelation.  And that if they freeze,  that is okay too, some do that in stress and if they will tell parent as soon as they can, parent will help.     And I think it is really counterproductive to teach sex ed without sharing that it absolutely feels good and they will likely want to use it, and that is nothing they need to feel surprised or ashamed about:  if they've just been taught that sex or its expression is BAD, then when they learn it isn't, it is a complete "they lied about this, so what else are they lying about".

And Sam Young announced these mountain treks near the first of the year and invited everyone to climb a mountain, a top of a driveway and record doing so to add to his list as a movement.  

Bottom line:  Sam's over the top.   But the restored church may have room to do better.   And there are a number of members/former members who feel like they haven't been dealt with as Jesus would.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, rpn said:

And that they expressly tell their children that if they ever feel uncomfortable in any way with what a church leader  or member (or a school teacher, coach, their boss, etc.) does or asks them to do, they have agency to get up and walk away, and tell parents immediately, who will help them go through the process of confirming with the spirit, or not whatever the leader asked or requested.

This is essential. When I was serving as YM president, I had a recurring nightmare that our boys were being harmed. So I approached the bishopric and suggested a tri-quorum lesson, which they approved. They also approved the lesson content once I had prepared it. In the lesson, we talked about how important it is to walk away and tell someone (and it may not be a parent for a number of reasons) anytime anything feels untoward, no matter who the person is. They nodded along, of course, and then we talked about who, statistically, was most likely in their lives to be a problem and how that can make this hard. Again, they nodded along. I felt they weren't getting this, so next I asked them how they would respond specifically if I were the offender. Their eyes all widened. They simply couldn't imagine that, but I needed them to to make the point.

Anyway, after that Sunday, I felt so much better. Hopefully these kinds of messages were also being taught at home, but I suspect they weren't.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Tacenda]

22 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This is essential. When I was serving as YM president, I had a recurring nightmare that our boys were being harmed. So I approached the bishopric and suggested a tri-quorum lesson, which they approved. They also approved the lesson content once I had prepared it. In the lesson, we talked about how important it is to walk away and tell someone (and it may not be a parent for a number of reason) anytime anything feels untoward, no matter who the person is. They nodded along, of course, and then we talked about who, statistically, was most likely in their lives to be a problem and how that can make this hard. Again, they nodded along. I felt they weren't getting this, so next I asked them how they would respond specifically if I were the offender. Their eyes all widened. They simply couldn't imagine that, but I needed them to to make the point.

Anyway, after that Sunday, I felt so much better. Hopefully these kinds of messages were also being taught at home, but I suspect they weren't.

🤗 In case you can't tell, I'm giving you a hug for a job well done. This is sooo needed!

[Tacenda]

47 minutes ago, rpn said:

Sam Young collected many stories, some vetted, that reported being asked as a child and young adult details about  sexual feelings and actions.   If any of them are accurate, they are just plain wrong.  What the church calls "Self-abuse" is a matter of not yet developing spirit to be in full control of mortal body with all its parts and passions (much like yelling at others is the same).      And bishops have no legitimate need to ask any details beyond have you committed fornication or adultery and maybe whether it is more than once and to some extent whether it was fully consensual (same age, same experience, no social coercion, no mood altering substances.  (The youth guidelines expressly limit a bishop to asking if you keep the Law of Chastity, and directing youth back to parent if they don't act like they know what it means, so bishops cannot use the excuse that kids asked for an explanation now.) 

Unless it has been changed recently, the handbook still uses the term  "forcible rape", which could lead some people/bishops to think that anyone without bruises and physical damage hasn't actually been raped and therefore the member needs to be disciplined ----  there are lots of report of this kind of thing, and if they are being trained otherwise and consistent with what we know about how rape effects survivors, it certainly hasn't been disclosed so church members know about it.  

My own take is that the largest need in the church is to train parents to be fully knowledgeable about human intimacy and the doctrine (read/view "Of Souls Symbols and Sacraments) and make sure their children know all about sexuality in context of those covenants.   And that they expressly tell their children that if they ever feel uncomfortable in any way with what a church leader  or member (or a school teacher, coach, their boss, etc.) does or asks them to do, they have agency to get up and walk away, and tell parents immediately, who will help them go through the process of confirming with the spirit, or not whatever the leader asked or requested.  That getting up and walking out is not a sign of rebellion, but a sign of confidence that they too can get personal revelation.  And that if they freeze,  that is okay too, some do that in stress and if they will tell parent as soon as they can, parent will help.     And I think it is really counterproductive to teach sex ed without sharing that it absolutely feels good and they will likely want to use it, and that is nothing they need to feel surprised or ashamed about:  if they've just been taught that sex or its expression is BAD, then when they learn it isn't, it is a complete "they lied about this, so what else are they lying about".

And Sam Young announced these mountain treks near the first of the year and invited everyone to climb a mountain, a top of a driveway and record doing so to add to his list as a movement.  

Bottom line:  Sam's over the top.   But the restored church may have room to do better.   And there are a number of members/former members who feel like they haven't been dealt with as Jesus would.

🤗 And a big hug to you as well. I agree that we do have room, lots of room, to do better. Quite impressed with you RPN, especially when it may be frowned upon for you not to stay the line with this Sam Young being a nut job.

[smac97]

43 minutes ago, rpn said:

Sam Young collected many stories, some vetted, that reported being asked as a child and young adult details about  sexual feelings and actions.  

How many were "vetted?"  Which ones?  By whom?

43 minutes ago, rpn said:

If any of them are accurate, they are just plain wrong. 

Those that are accurate are indeed wrong.  But I question how many of these stories were "vetted."  I also seriously question Mr. Young's deplorable behavior and accusations, and also his demanded changes.

43 minutes ago, rpn said:

What the church calls "Self-abuse" is a matter of not yet developing spirit to be in full control of mortal body with all its parts and passions (much like yelling at others is the same).

I think masturbation is a sensitive and potentially complex topic.  

43 minutes ago, rpn said:

And bishops have no legitimate need to ask any details beyond have you committed fornication or adultery and maybe whether it is more than once and to some extent whether it was fully consensual (same age, same experience, no social coercion, no mood altering substances.  (The youth guidelines expressly limit a bishop to asking if you keep the Law of Chastity, and directing youth back to parent if they don't act like they know what it means, so bishops cannot use the excuse that kids asked for an explanation now.) 

I am not sure it is for you or me to declare that masturbation is necessarily outside the proper scope of a bishop's inquiry.  The same goes with pornography.

43 minutes ago, rpn said:

My own take is that the largest need in the church is to train parents to be fully knowledgeable about human intimacy and the doctrine (read/view "Of Souls Symbols and Sacraments) and make sure their children know all about sexuality in context of those covenants.  

I very much agree with you there.  I think a bishop could make some limited inquiry into the issues above (sexual relations / masturbation / pornography), but instruction on such things should be left to the parents to provide.  

43 minutes ago, rpn said:

And that they expressly tell their children that if they ever feel uncomfortable in any way with what a church leader  or member (or a school teacher, coach, their boss, etc.) does or asks them to do, they have agency to get up and walk away, and tell parents immediately, who will help them go through the process of confirming with the spirit, or not whatever the leader asked or requested.  That getting up and walking out is not a sign of rebellion, but a sign of confidence that they too can get personal revelation.  And that if they freeze,  that is okay too, some do that in stress and if they will tell parent as soon as they can, parent will help.    

I agree with these items.

43 minutes ago, rpn said:

And I think it is really counterproductive to teach sex ed without sharing that it absolutely feels good and they will likely want to use it, and that is nothing they need to feel surprised or ashamed about:  if they've just been taught that sex or its expression is BAD, then when they learn it isn't, it is a complete "they lied about this, so what else are they lying about".

I agree here, too.  "Sex is wonderful and fun, but it is also very powerful and important, and only to be experienced within marriage" is a healthy and meaningful message for bishops to convey.

43 minutes ago, rpn said:

Bottom line:  Sam's over the top.   But the restored church may have room to do better.   And there are a number of members/former members who feel like they haven't been dealt with as Jesus would.

I still cannot excuse his behavior.  I also question his sincerity at his point (and, given that he recently convened a press conference in a bar wearing a kooky outfit - including a cape, I am also wondering about his mental stability).

Thanks,

-Smac

[rpn]

12 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Quote

And bishops have no legitimate need to ask any details beyond have you committed fornication or adultery and maybe whether it is more than once and to some extent whether it was fully consensual (same age, same experience, no social coercion, no mood altering substances.  (The youth guidelines expressly limit a bishop to asking if you keep the Law of Chastity, and directing youth back to parent if they don't act like they know what it means, so bishops cannot use the excuse that kids asked for an explanation now.) 

I am not sure it is for you or me to declare that masturbation is necessarily outside the proper scope of a bishop's inquiry.  The same goes with pornography.

The handbook explicitly says that there cannot be a disciplinary council for porn or "self abuse".  (And last year's youth guidelines tell bishops to just ask Do you keep the Law of Chastity question.    If they were serious sins (and I don't think either are sins at all since they are are about self-control not about violating laws of God)  they'd be on the list of possible or mandatory.   Yes, there has been a lot of angst about human sexuality, because exercising it outside the bounds God has set risks actual harm to innocents and changes lives. And it is hard to dispute how much harm porn has done to people and society.   But is is parents job to teach what the Law of Chastity is, and as I read the guidelines bishops are NOT allowed to ask about porn or "self abuse" (if the member came to them for help, then bishop clearly can offer help.)   

  (Bishops would have a legitimate reason to ask prospective missionaries about "self abuse" as they have to protect other missionaries who have no control over who they are assigned as companions to.)

 

29 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

when it may be frowned upon for you not to stay the line with this Sam Young being a nut job.

Don't see much value in calling names in civil discourse.   But I also do not agree at all with what Bro. Young is doing.  I think he unfairly and inaccurately maligns church leaders in a way that is defamatory. 

 

24 minutes ago, smac97 said:

(and, given that he recently convened a press conference in a bar wearing a kooky outfit - including a cape, I am also wondering about his mental stability).

This is just not right, and, frankly, beneath you.   It's kind of like the case death penalty case that was overturned because the prosecutor argued that the defendant's tattoos warranted him to die for the crime.   I don't know Sam, but if I were in his shoes I'd have to be intense because how else could I live with the choices I'd made.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

Never fear!  Tithing settlement is coming up in a few months!  😁

Thanks,

-Smac

Now that the bishop can record all the declarations himself there is rarely a need for the clerk to help.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, JAHS said:

I am a stake auditor and I try to make it go as fast and painless as possible. 45 minutes tops.

Most of our auditors keep it to around an hour but this guy is so slow. When he speaks you have to bite your tongue to keep from finishing his sentence as he talks so slowly and always adds unnecessary words and phrases into every statement or question. Never say it in one sentence when you can say it in five painfully drawn out sentences. Even then he still often fails to explain what he is asking or what he wants and you are left in a difficult dilemma. You can guess and hope you are right or ask for clarification and then get another dull monologue trying to clarify. I usually just guess or throw everything at him in hopes something fits. 

He can clearly touch type but types at the speed of a hunt and peck keyboarder. Whenever he says something while typing he stops and cannot continue typing until he is done. Then he looks at the screen and takes 15-30 seconds to review where he was before he resumes. Then when he finds anything that is the least bit suspect he sits and ponders about it..........and ponders.....and ponders. I asked him what was up after he stared at the screen for 15 minutes trying to figure out whether and how to record it. He said he had to be careful in how everything is recorded. I wanted to respond that we did not have 24 hours for him to fast over it. This happened a few times. By the end I was recommending how to record it. I would have told him to record that I was the AntiChrist and that the ward was sacrificing infants to Molech (with receipts for the Molech idol) if it would have made him go faster.

He really should be used in some form of interrogation. I would tell him anything to make it stop!

He is a running gag every time the audit comes up. Everyone that has to be there hopes he will not be assigned. Every time he does audits every bishop involved complains to the stake president and every time we did we were told he would be released by the next audit. I check callings online at the beginning of audit time to see if he has been released and he never had been. I suspect he is the Stake President’s big stick and getting assigned him is a sign of his displeasure and this is some way of keeping the bishops on their best behavior.

There is a bit of hyperbole in there but not as much as you suspect.

[smac97]

31 minutes ago, rpn said:

The handbook explicitly says that there cannot be a disciplinary council for porn or "self abuse". 

The same goes for violating the Word of Wisdom or failing to pay tithing.  That these things do not give rise to a disciplinary council is not equivalent to them being acceptable in the Church.

Meanwhile, the For the Strength of Youth pamphlet continues to state:

Quote

Never do anything that could lead to sexual transgression.  Treat others with respect, not as objects used to satisfy lustful and selfish desires. Before marriage, do not participate in passionate kissing, lie on top of another person, or touch the private, sacred parts of another person’s body, with or without clothing. Do not do anything else that arouses sexual feelings. Do not arouse those emotions in your own body. 

I think the Church is trying to be compassionate and circumspect about this topic.

Quote

(And last year's youth guidelines tell bishops to just ask Do you keep the Law of Chastity question.   

I think that is generally appropriate.

Quote

If they were serious sins (and I don't think either are sins at all since they are are about self-control not about violating laws of God)  they'd be on the list of possible or mandatory.  

I don't think you are correct on any part of this.  But I'll let you study the matter out and come to your own conclusions.

Quote

Yes, there has been a lot of angst about human sexuality, because exercising it outside the bounds God has set risks actual harm to innocents and changes lives. And it is hard to dispute how much harm porn has done to people and society.   But is is parents job to teach what the Law of Chastity is, and as I read the guidelines bishops are NOT allowed to ask about porn or "self abuse" (if the member came to them for help, then bishop clearly can offer help.)

I think that is generally correct.  

Quote

This is just not right, and, frankly, beneath you.  

I don't understand.  I expressed concern about Mr. Young's mental faculties.  I was sincere about that.

Quote

It's kind of like the case death penalty case that was overturned because the prosecutor argued that the defendant's tattoos warranted him to die for the crime.   I don't know Sam, but if I were in his shoes I'd have to be intense because how else could I live with the choices I'd made.

I don't know what you mean here.  Scheduling a press conference in a bar seems a bit weird.  Showing up for that press conference wearing . . . what he was wearing was really weird.

Thanks,

-Smac

[JAHS]

56 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Most of our auditors keep it to around an hour but this guy is so slow. When he speaks you have to bite your tongue to keep from finishing his sentence as he talks so slowly and always adds unnecessary words and phrases into every statement or question. Never say it in one sentence when you can say it in five painfully drawn out sentences. Even then he still often fails to explain what he is asking or what he wants and you are left in a difficult dilemma. You can guess and hope you are right or ask for clarification and then get another dull monologue trying to clarify. I usually just guess or throw everything at him in hopes something fits. 

He can clearly touch type but types at the speed of a hunt and peck keyboarder. Whenever he says something while typing he stops and cannot continue typing until he is done. Then he looks at the screen and takes 15-30 seconds to review where he was before he resumes. Then when he finds anything that is the least bit suspect he sits and ponders about it..........and ponders.....and ponders. I asked him what was up after he stared at the screen for 15 minutes trying to figure out whether and how to record it. He said he had to be careful in how everything is recorded. I wanted to respond that we did not have 24 hours for him to fast over it. This happened a few times. By the end I was recommending how to record it. I would have told him to record that I was the AntiChrist and that the ward was sacrificing infants to Molech (with receipts for the Molech idol) if it would have made him go faster.

He really should be used in some form of interrogation. I would tell him anything to make it stop!

He is a running gag every time the audit comes up. Everyone that has to be there hopes he will not be assigned. Every time he does audits every bishop involved complains to the stake president and every time we did we were told he would be released by the next audit. I check callings online at the beginning of audit time to see if he has been released and he never had been. I suspect he is the Stake President’s big stick and getting assigned him is a sign of his displeasure and this is some way of keeping the bishops on their best behavior.

There is a bit of hyperbole in there but not as much as you suspect.

I am also the finance clerk of my own ward so I understand what you are feeling and why I try to make it fast and painless for others.

[MustardSeed]

It’s my opinion that the specifics around master Bation and church control have caused more problems for people than they have helped. I hope that we can let go of the inquisitions in church around this private topic.  

I think marital relations could be MUCH improved. 

That is all.