Sam Young Back in the News

[USU78]

37 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Why do these questions have to asked in the first place, these worthiness questions. How about discuss other things non sexual? When putting many of the youth in a state of mind that they are no longer worthy, this is abuse. 

Yup.  Expect nothing of anybody.  Especially those engaged in highpriestly functions on behalf of the dead.  That's the ticket.

Just what do you make of the fact that purity/worthiness/cleanliness requirements have been there for priestly types for virtually every religion for thousands of years?  Is the Mormon version just "out there" and "ad hoc" and unnecessary?  And the fact that youth has been involved to one extent or another in priestly functions, and thus subject to the purity/worthiness/cleanliness requirements for the same period of time and across the same spectrum of world religions, does that make the Mormon version "out there" and "ad hoc" and unnecessary?

What you seem not to understand is that this is just the way it is in most religions (except for those who lose track of what religions do).  We get enraged when an RC priest fails in his vows.  Father de Bricassart failing in his vows is shocking and titillating because it's so "out there."  We know how priestly types are supposed to behave, and we infer there ought to be somebody holding them to the standards they're supposed to be upholding.

Same with Mormon youth.  That "somebody" is supposed to be somebody they know, somebody close by, somebody charged with upholding those standards himself, in his own life.

Your assertion that it's abuse is just plain silly.

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Why do these questions have to asked in the first place, these worthiness questions.

Because we are commanded that "if you believe all these things, see that ye do them" (Mosiah 4:10).

Because not practicing what we preach would make us hypocrites.  

Because bishops are "judges in Israel."  They cannot function in that capacity unless they are given facts and evidence to adjudicate.  See D&C 107:68-76.

Because it is far better for us to be given an opportunity to repent now than to wait until the final judgment.  

Lots of reasons.

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

How about discuss other things non sexual?

The vast majority of a bishop's time in interviewing members of his flock pertains to "other things non sexual."

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

When putting many of the youth in a state of mind that they are no longer worthy, this is abuse. 

Do you differentiate between worthiness or unworthiness in the Gospel?  Can a person, in your view, ever be "unworthy" to, say, serve a mission, or go to the temple, or hold a calling in the Church?

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited July 31, 2019 by smac97

[Tacenda]

33 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Yup.  Expect nothing of anybody.  Especially those engaged in highpriestly functions on behalf of the dead.  That's the ticket.

Just what do you make of the fact that purity/worthiness/cleanliness requirements have been there for priestly types for virtually every religion for thousands of years?  Is the Mormon version just "out there" and "ad hoc" and unnecessary?  And the fact that youth has been involved to one extent or another in priestly functions, and thus subject to the purity/worthiness/cleanliness requirements for the same period of time and across the same spectrum of world religions, does that make the Mormon version "out there" and "ad hoc" and unnecessary?

What you seem not to understand is that this is just the way it is in most religions (except for those who lose track of what religions do).  We get enraged when an RC priest fails in his vows.  Father de Bricassart failing in his vows is shocking and titillating because it's so "out there."  We know how priestly types are supposed to behave, and we infer there ought to be somebody holding them to the standards they're supposed to be upholding.

Same with Mormon youth.  That "somebody" is supposed to be somebody they know, somebody close by, somebody charged with upholding those standards himself, in his own life.

Your assertion that it's abuse is just plain silly.

Ever been told you're unworthy to take the Sacrament? It's mental abuse, IMO. Especially when the Sacrament is for repentance. I've never had that happen, but have read stories of members that were in their youth when they were told that they were unworthy if they had ever masterbated and that led them into a downward spiral.

I'd even go so far as to say some committed "s" over it. Sorry Calm if you're reading, but I know that many members are very stalwart out there and if they felt like they had even crossed the line slightly, it can have devasting affects. Call me overly emotional about this, but it's how I feel.  If someone feels unworthy, it affects all aspects of their lives.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Tacenda

[USU78]

17 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Ever been told you're unworthy to take the Sacrament? It's mental abuse, IMO. Especially when the Sacrament is for repentance

Not that it's any of your business, but yes.  And I agreed and agree with the determination and found it appropriate under the circumstances.  The abuse was the abuse I heaped on myself by leaving something un-dealt-with for decades.

Quote

I'd even go so far as to say some committed "s" over it. Sorry Calm if you're reading, but I know that many members are very stalwart out there and if they felt like they had even crossed the line slightly, it can have devasting affects. Call me overly emotional about this, but it's how I feel.  If someone feels unworthy, it affects all aspects of their lives.

What you are describing fringes on mental/emotional dysfunction.  Perhaps the Bishop(s) involved missed this, but in their defense, more and more is being asked of them.  In my youth, Bishop was a much cushier gig that it appears to be now.  No way I'd want any part of it.  I'm quite happy with my last 15 years, running the choir, being "special events monkey," teaching primary, and handling building maintenance/cleaning.

Edited July 31, 2019 by USU78

[MustardSeed]

17 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Ever been told you're unworthy to take the Sacrament? It's mental abuse, IMO. Especially when the Sacrament is for repentance. I've never had that happen, but have read stories of members that were in their youth when they were told that they were unworthy if they had ever masterbated and that led them into a downward spiral.

I'd even go so far as to say some committed "s" over it. Sorry Calm if you're reading, but I know that many members are very stalwart out there and if they felt like they had even crossed the line slightly, it can have devasting affects. Call me overly emotional about this, but it's how I feel.  If someone feels unworthy, it affects all aspects of their lives.

I have seen this to be true, not that I think any one intends to be abusive.  

My oldest son was not able to take sacrament for a year- bishop forgot about him- and I don’t think I need to explain the impact of that on him. This, of course combined with other things.   My youngest son went two years without sacrament.  He remained plugged in but he quit coming to sacrament meeting after 18 months. He’s now active. It had a major impact on him though- imagine a child’s experience of that shame.  I know many adults who can’t handle it. 

I dont think God intends to shame.  I think some humans do and I think some humans don’t.  But it’s rough out there. 

Its a lot easier to just do what you’re taught.  But we weren’t sent here to be perfect.  We were sent to achieve perfection.  IN my opinion there are other ways to go about it than the way we do it. 

Regardless, people are gonna sin.  Otherwise what’s the point of all if this?

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Ever been told you're unworthy to take the Sacrament? It's mental abuse, IMO. Especially when the Sacrament is for repentance. I've never had that happen, but have read stories of members that were in their youth when they were told that they were unworthy if they had ever masterbated and that led them into a downward spiral.

I'd even go so far as to say some committed "s" over it. Sorry Calm if you're reading, but I know that many members are very stalwart out there and if they felt like they had even crossed the line slightly, it can have devasting affects. Call me overly emotional about this, but it's how I feel.  If someone feels unworthy, it affects all aspects of their lives.

Every day of my life I already know I am unworthy to some degree regarding living the gospel the way I should, therefore I am never "devastated" about it.  We should try to have a "humble, not perfect but working on it and not giving up attitude" in our lives.   A lot of how this affects people depends a lot on their own individual personalities.  Bishops should always try to handle such things in a positive non-judgmental way, but there are a few who may not know how to do this. 

Edited July 31, 2019 by JAHS

[smac97]

40 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Ever been told you're unworthy to take the Sacrament? It's mental abuse, IMO.  Especially when the Sacrament is for repentance.

How do you account for 3 Nephi 18:28-29 (emphasis added):

Quote

28 And now behold, this is the commandment which I give unto you, that ye shall not suffer any one knowingly to partake of my flesh and blood unworthily, when ye shall minister it;

29 For whoso eateth and drinketh my flesh and blood unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to his soul; therefore if ye know that a man is unworthy to eat and drink of my flesh and blood ye shall forbid him.

And Mormon 9:29 (emphasis added):

Quote

29 See that ye are not baptized unworthily; see that ye partake not of the sacrament of Christ unworthily; but see that ye do all things in worthiness, and do it in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God; and if ye do this, and endure to the end, ye will in nowise be cast out.

How do you square your position with these scriptures?

40 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I've never had that happen, but have read stories of members that were in their youth when they were told that they were unworthy if they had ever masterbated and that led them into a downward spiral.

Again, do you differentiate between worthiness or unworthiness in the Gospel?  Can a person, in your view, ever be "unworthy" to, say, serve a mission, or go to the temple, or hold a calling in the Church?

I concede that it is possible for a bishop to err in handling issues pertaining to "worthiness."  But you seem to be suggesting that bishops can't/shouldn't handle such issues at all.  That the Church should make no inquiries at all into whether its members are keeping the commandents.  Is that your position?

40 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'd even go so far as to say some committed "s" over it.

Oh, brother.

40 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Sorry Calm if you're reading, but I know that many members are very stalwart out there and if they felt like they had even crossed the line slightly, it can have devasting affects. Call me overly emotional about this, but it's how I feel.  If someone feels unworthy, it affects all aspects of their lives.

So feelings trump obedience?  What is it you are saying here?

-Smac

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

If someone feels unworthy, it affects all aspects of their lives.

Yes, that is the point - to change their lives and behaviors.  Feelings of guilt, remorse, and unworthiness can influence a person to repent and change their lives for the better.  

Don't confuse healthy feelings of guilt with toxic shame.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, USU78 said:

Yup.  Expect nothing of anybody.  Especially those engaged in highpriestly functions on behalf of the dead.  That's the ticket.

Just what do you make of the fact that purity/worthiness/cleanliness requirements have been there for priestly types for virtually every religion for thousands of years?  Is the Mormon version just "out there" and "ad hoc" and unnecessary?  And the fact that youth has been involved to one extent or another in priestly functions, and thus subject to the purity/worthiness/cleanliness requirements for the same period of time and across the same spectrum of world religions, does that make the Mormon version "out there" and "ad hoc" and unnecessary?

What you seem not to understand is that this is just the way it is in most religions (except for those who lose track of what religions do).  We get enraged when an RC priest fails in his vows.  Father de Bricassart failing in his vows is shocking and titillating because it's so "out there."  We know how priestly types are supposed to behave, and we infer there ought to be somebody holding them to the standards they're supposed to be upholding.

Same with Mormon youth.  That "somebody" is supposed to be somebody they know, somebody close by, somebody charged with upholding those standards himself, in his own life.

Your assertion that it's abuse is just plain silly.

If I had anything to say about it, I'd leave the sexual stuff out and focus on loving thy neighbor. Ask how their lives are going and situations they've helped their fellow man. The church is heavily centered on porn and self abuse talk, IMO.

[smac97]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

If I had anything to say about it, I'd leave the sexual stuff out and focus on loving thy neighbor.

Isn't there some real danger, both temporally and spiritually, to "leav{ing} the sexual stuff out?"

And why is it necessary to omit the Law of Chastity from such discussions, particularly given that this is by far the most common category of failings/transgressions in the Church?

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Ask how their lives are going and situations they've helped their fellow man. The church is heavily centered on porn and self abuse talk, IMO.

The Church is attempting to address violations of the Law of Chastity by members of the Church.  And your suggestion is that the Church utterly ignore this law.  Sweep it under the rug.  I don't understand that.

Thanks,

-Smac

[ALarson]

13 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Isn't there some real danger, both temporally and spiritually, to "leav{ing} the sexual stuff out?"

And why is it necessary to omit the Law of Chastity from such discussions, particularly given that this is by far the most common category of failings/transgressions in the Church?

I think we just have to use common sense regarding age appropriate conversations during interviews.  IMO, no adult should bring up the topic of masturbation (for example) with a child or youth (especially if they are alone with them behind closed doors).  Even for adults, we are instructed to stick to the questions and only ask:

Quote

Do you live the law of chastity?

I see no reason to ask any more probing questions that this when interviewing the youth.  This is actually the exact instructions we have received from our stake leaders too.

There are lessons for the YM and YW to discuss the law of chastity, ask questions, etc.....it's not the place of an adult male to instruct the youth about this when they are alone with them.  That's to protect the leader as well, IMO.

Edited July 31, 2019 by ALarson

[MustardSeed]

20 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I think we just have to use common sense regarding age appropriate conversations during interviews.  IMO, no adult should bring up the topic of masturbation (for example) with a child or youth (especially if they are alone with them behind closed doors).  Even for adults, we are instructed to stick to the questions and only ask:

I see no reason to ask any more probing questions that this when interviewing the youth.  This is actually the exact instructions we have received from our stake leaders too.

There are lessons for the YM and YW to discuss the law of chastity, ask questions, etc.....it's not the place of an adult male to instruct the youth about this when they are alone with them.  That's to protect the leader as well, IMO.

Just like when the bishop asks are you a full tithe payer but doesn’t ask to see your statement. 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'd even go so far as to say some committed "s" over it. Sorry Calm if you're reading,

Don’t apologize if you don’t mean it.

And it is not me you should be concerned about as I am not the one who came up with these rules, but rather you contributing to increasing suicide risks by improperly talking about suicide. If you really care about helping people at risks, then why not actually make the effort not to talk about suicide in harmful ways?  It makes you look like a hypocrite for one thing. Too concerned with your own feelings and desire to say things to worry about the impact of your comments. 

http://www.lgbtmap.org/file/talking-about-suicide-and-lgbt-populations.pdf

Quote

 and not always immediately obvious. Making hasty assumptions about those causes, even when based on comments from family or friends or media reports, can result in statements that are later proven to be inaccurate. Don’t risk perpetuating false or misleading information by jumping to conclusions about the reasons for a particular suicide death. Also, directly attributing a suicide to bullying or another negative life event can increase contagion risk among vulnerable individuals who have similar experiences.

One easy, compassionate to loved ones:

Quote

Also avoid the phrase “committed suicide.” The word “committed” is usually associated with a criminal act and can re-victimize surviving family. Say died by suicide or that the death was a suicide death instead.

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

51 minutes ago, smac97 said:

particularly given that this is by far the most common category of failings/transgressions in the Church?

I can think of others that are more likely candidates, such as behaviour resulting from pride/vanity or selfishness.  Probably honesty as well.

Sexual transgressions are likely most common to discipline for, but this could be because of choice to focus on them. They are likely much easier to judge than pride, honesty, etc. 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Calm

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

I can think of others that are more likely candidates, such as pride/vanity or selfishness.  Probably honesty as well.

Let me clarify: "particularly given that this is by far the most common category of failings/transgressions in the Church that are addressed by bishops in worthiness interviews."

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Sexual transgressions are likely most common to discipline for, but this could be because of choice to focus on them. They are likely much easier to judge than pride, honesty, etc. 

I am not sure that bishops are supposed to attempt to adjudicate more nebulous things like pride or vanity.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, ALarson said:

it's not the place of an adult male to instruct the youth about this when they are alone with them. 

Or female leaders/teachers. Or other youth for that matter (though telling youth not to won’t work much I’m guessing). At least not instructing if not asked by the individual imo. 

Parents are the ones that should be taking initiative in one on one discussions. Many won’t do so, but a better response to this gap is group discussion for instruction and only then one on one if the kid comes to the adult wanting more info. 

[USU78]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

If I had anything to say about it, I'd leave the sexual stuff out and focus on loving thy neighbor. Ask how their lives are going and situations they've helped their fellow man. The church is heavily centered on porn and self abuse talk, IMO.

At Qumran, the exiled temple priest wannabes had an entire set of rituals of purification, including for sexual congress and nocturnal emissions:

file:///C:/Users/Ronald/Downloads/_book_edcoll_9789004350120_BP000029-preview.pdf

We, from our perspective, look at such things as "dead works."  Just what is it about washing your clothes, bathing, and saying rote prayers and whatnot that actually helps cleanse the soul of a person?  Of course, with the right frame of mind, going through these actions while engaging in an internal cleansing is possible if not likely, given an honest and devout devotee.

The Mormon analogue is repentance, sometimes with the assistance of the Bishop, whereupon participation in the Sacrament is the outward work/action that signals return to full participation in the religious life of the community one, as priest, serves.  This applies to boys and girls/men and women, since, in the Temple, each acts as representative of G-d to the dead, and as representative of the dead to G-d.  Our weekly participation in the Sacrament renewal/repentance ritual presupposes our continuing need to repent.

Now, the Bishop does not intrude oftener than annually, absent special circumstances, in the life of the adult, save to ask if there's anything that hasn't been repented of during the biannual temple recommend interview.  For kids it's at least annually.  But the reason for the interview and the reason for worthiness assessment is the same:  if you are to be a priestly person, you must demonstrate your worthiness before acting on behalf of another person, even if that person is dead.  You owe it to them to take their temple work seriously enough to be worthy to act as their proxy.  G-d asks it of you, and the worthy dead rely on your implied promise to them and to Him when you present yourself at the Temple to officiate.

It isn't strange.  It isn't "out there." It's normal and expected, whether you're Mormon or something else.

And blaming hamhanded, hamhandling Bishop/Butchers because they don't live up to some standard you wish to apply, requiring perfection where perfection cannot possibly be expected, is unjust judgment.  A little compassion for the guy behind the desk is not counterindicated.

[Calm]

 

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I am not sure that bishops are supposed to attempt to adjudicate more nebulous things like pride or vanity.

Thanks,

-Smac

I am talking about behaviours resulting from such, like ostracizing others or gossip. 

[ALarson]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Or female leaders/teachers. Or other youth for that matter (though telling youth not to won’t work much I’m guessing). At least not instructing if not asked by the individual imo. 

Parents are the ones that should be taking initiative in one on one discussions. Many won’t do so, but a better response to this gap is group discussion for instruction and only then one on one if the kid comes to the adult wanting more info. 

I agree.  (I still worry about any one on one discussions of a sexual nature between a child/youth and alone with an adult.....but know what you mean here, I think....)

As I wrote, most of the questions can be addressed by youth leaders in the lessons they give about the Law of Chastity (in a group), IMO.  Of course, the ideal is to have the parents teaching their own kids about the Law of Chastity....but that does not always happen as we know.  

Edited July 31, 2019 by ALarson

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I still worry about any one on one discussions of a sexual nature between a child/youth and alone with an adult.....but know what you mean here, I think...

I am just concerned about the impact of a youth not being able to find an answer because no one is willing to talk to them about their confusion due to it being sensitive. Think of a comparable incident of a doctor refusing to discuss the specifics of a rash with a young patient because it is likely a result of sexual behaviour, leaving the patient struggling to know what to do.  Or wanting to clarify if it is possible to get pregnant from ____.

If a youth is struggling because they don’t have enough info on spiritual matters, someone needs to be there for them so they can have peace or start working to get there if they have actual sins to resolve. “Just pray about it” isn’t always helpful. 

[ALarson]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am just concerned about the impact of a youth not being able to find an answer because no one is willing to talk to them about their confusion due to it being sensitive. Think of a comparable incident of a doctor refusing to discuss the specifics of a rash with a young patient because it is likely a result of sexual behaviour, leaving the patient struggling to know what to do.  Or wanting to clarify if it is possible to get pregnant from ____.

If a youth is struggling because they don’t have enough info on spiritual matters, someone needs to be there for them so they can have peace or start working to get there if they have actual sins to resolve. “Just pray about it” isn’t always helpful. 

Oh, I agree.  As long as the adult does not bring up the topic or initiate any conversation of a sexual nature (while alone with a child or youth).  Youth certainly need to be able to go to someone they trust with questions, IMO....but that should be their choice (who to talk to).

[USU78]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am just concerned about the impact of a youth not being able to find an answer because no one is willing to talk to them about their confusion due to it being sensitive. Think of a comparable incident of a doctor refusing to discuss the specifics of a rash with a young patient because it is likely a result of sexual behaviour, leaving the patient struggling to know what to do.  Or wanting to clarify if it is possible to get pregnant from ____.

If a youth is struggling because they don’t have enough info on spiritual matters, someone needs to be there for them so they can have peace or start working to get there if they have actual sins to resolve. “Just pray about it” isn’t always helpful. 

It also isn't helpful to have a wall between youth and the bishop.  Confession/repentance can only come, if another human's involvement is needed, if there is trust.  Hysterically calling the interview process grooming and abusive works to inspire fear and distrust.  It, rather, puts a wall up.  Without addressing the bonafides of those who, perhaps in their pain, are engaging in the hysterics, they are putting themselves in position of judge of the Bishop, judge of the Church, indeed, judge of G-d Himself for setting up a system of priesthood representatives to help penitents in their striving, as well as part of a wall around youthful penitents, infantilizing them, preventing them from being freed of guilt.

[alter idem]

18 hours ago, Tacenda said:

If I had anything to say about it, I'd leave the sexual stuff out and focus on loving thy neighbor. Ask how their lives are going and situations they've helped their fellow man. The church is heavily centered on porn and self abuse talk, IMO.

They can't leave the sexual stuff out.  I don't think the church is heavily centered on porn and slf abuse--I've heard them mention pornography, because it's an evil that is a problem for many members.  But I haven't heard anything about self 'abuse' in talks.  I don't think they talk about that, but it is implied in discussing the problems of pornography.  But, ignoring sexual immorality, in the many forms it takes, is not something the Church can do, unless they want to cave totally to the world and it's values. And, if they did that, there would be a lot of suffering by victims of those who would claim they were never told it was wrong.  There's a lot of abuse that takes place because abusers don't think they are doing anything wrong.  If you want to protect victims, you have to speak up and teach that these things are wrong.

[alter idem]

17 hours ago, ALarson said:

I agree.  (I still worry about any one on one discussions of a sexual nature between a child/youth and alone with an adult.....but know what you mean here, I think....)

As I wrote, most of the questions can be addressed by youth leaders in the lessons they give about the Law of Chastity (in a group), IMO.  Of course, the ideal is to have the parents teaching their own kids about the Law of Chastity....but that does not always happen as we know.  

I think the inspired shift to a home centered worship and teaching plan can help parents to step up and take this responsibility onto themselves rather than assume church teachers and leaders will do it.

[The Nehor]

On 7/31/2019 at 11:01 AM, JAHS said:

 Well all monkeys groom each other so............ 😉

My male sugar gliders always clean the females really well when they are in heat right before mating. Showers are a precursor to abuse!

Actually they do not like like they are being abused. More bored really. I wish I had gotten a photo of Elric going at it enthusiastically on Arwen while she was just eating a snack ignoring him. Would have made a great meme.