When the Spirit is used as a manipulative tool

[MustardSeed]

1. When I was at Ricks college my very first day in class my religion professor opened with the following caution- “young ladies don’t ever let a young man convince you to marry him by telling you that the Spirit confirmed that you are to be his wife.  That is coercive, and you are entitled to your own process”.  My feelers went up and never went down, apparently. 

2. One of the most abhorrent parenting practices I observed by a friend was when I heard her tell her crying 5 year old that God isn’t happy when we cry.  “Don’t you want to make God happy?” 

3. Later in life, a door to door salesman peddling Book of Mormon video tapes was getting no traction with me so he pulled the old “don’t you want the Spirit in your home?”  I threw him off my porch.  (Sorry for the repeat story here.)

4. Today, I heard it again.  I’m not the only one who responded this way, as people around me raised eyebrows as well.  I attended BYU  graduation for my kid (he made it lol!) and before the names were read, the speaker said what every other graduation requests- please no cheers so we can get thru the names- only it was said this way: “please no outbursts of cheering so we can maintain The Spirit during this event.”  

 

 Here are my thoughts- this was a graduation.  Not a sacrament meeting.  We clapped for the musical performance and they let us clap and really whoop it up at the end.  So in my mind this request had nothing to do with the Spirit and more to do with efficiency.  Efficiency is GREAT!  But to suggest it was about the Spirit felt like a falsehood and a manipulative ploy.  Certainly not all out intentional but probably just convenient for the speaker. 

I recognize I’m hard wired now to notice such things and may see them when others won’t and I might even be wrong.  

Thoughts? 

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by MustardSeed
Spelling

[The Nehor]

I think I am glad I do not live in Utah or Idaho.  

Edited July 24, 2019 by The Nehor

[MustardSeed]

So am I . 

[Hamba Tuhan]

34 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Thoughts? 

1. One more reason to follow Pres Hinckley’s counsel and not attend a Church-owned university. 

2. Sometimes my crying makes God really happy. 

3. Someone tried to set me up with a single American woman a few years ago. We met when she travelled here and then spent some time together. I quickly lost interest owing to major incompatibilities, but she was convinced we were meant to be together. At one point, she told me her dad had given her a blessing and promised her that I’d come around. I pointed out to her that there was no way such a ‘promise’ could be inspired. 

[mrmarklin]

The first three I get. But the fourth-that meeting likely started with prayer, calling the Spirit. It’s reasonable to want the Presence to continue if possible. 

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I think I am glad I do not live in Utah or Idaho.  

I know many wonderful, wonderful people in Utah and Idaho. Salt of the earth Saints.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

So am I . 

See above.

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I know many wonderful, wonderful people in Utah and Idaho. Salt of the earth Saints.

Tell them to flee Babylon while there is still time.

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

See above.

So do I 

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

The first three I get. But the fourth-that meeting likely started with prayer, calling the Spirit. It’s reasonable to want the Presence to continue if possible. 

Do you think the Spirit does not remain when people cheer? 

Edited July 24, 2019 by MustardSeed

[Hamba Tuhan]

19 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Do you think the Spirit does not remain when people cheer? 

'Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding ... When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?'

'Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy'.

'Be glad in the Lord, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart'.

And then there's my top fave: temple dedications!

[Mark Beesley]

I recall having a discussion with someone shortly after the US invaded Iraq. Unable to justify the invasion with secular arguments, he proclaimed that the invasion would directly lead to missionaries in Iraq and that the Spirit had confirmed this to him.  I’m still waiting.

I think this is the worst type of manipulation, but he was young and I forgive him.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Mark Beesley said:

I recall having a discussion with someone shortly after the US invaded Iraq. Unable to justify the invasion with secular arguments, he proclaimed that the invasion would directly lead to missionaries in Iraq and that the Spirit had confirmed this to him.  I’m still waiting.

I think this is the worst type of manipulation, but he was young and I forgive him.

Hmmmm......the Middle Ages approach to spreading Christianity. The sword and then the missionaries. Gotta love the classics.

[alter idem]

12 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

1. When I was at Ricks college my very first day in class my religion professor opened with the following caution- “young ladies don’t ever let a young man convince you to marry him by telling you that the Spirit confirmed that you are to be his wife.  That is coercive, and you are entitled to your own process”.  My feelers went up and never went down, apparently. 

2. One of the most abhorrent parenting practices I observed by a friend was when I heard her tell her crying 5 year old that God isn’t happy when we cry.  “Don’t you want to make God happy?” 

3. Later in life, a door to door salesman peddling Book of Mormon video tapes was getting no traction with me so he pulled the old “don’t you want the Spirit in your home?”  I threw him off my porch.  (Sorry for the repeat story here.)

4. Today, I heard it again.  I’m not the only one who responded this way, as people around me raised eyebrows as well.  I attended BYU  graduation for my kid (he made it lol!) and before the names were read, the speaker said what every other graduation requests- please no cheers so we can get thru the names- only it was said this way: “please no outbursts of cheering so we can maintain The Spirit during this event.”  

 

 Here are my thoughts- this was a graduation.  Not a sacrament meeting.  We clapped for the musical performance and they let us clap and really whoop it up at the end.  So in my mind this request had nothing to do with the Spirit and more to do with efficiency.  Efficiency is GREAT!  But to suggest it was about the Spirit felt like a falsehood and a manipulative ploy.  Certainly not all out intentional but probably just convenient for the speaker. 

I recognize I’m hard wired now to notice such things and may see them when others won’t and I might even be wrong.  

Thoughts? 

 

I agree on the Graduation.  But maybe they were referring to the 'spirit' of the event.  A spirit of accomplishment, of comradery, and celebration of the class which is graduating together.  They ask for no cheers and clapping until it's over, then we'll all celebrate the graduating class, but it never works because in a group that size, you're guaranteed that some will ignore the admonishment and that just provides the excuse for the rest to ignore it too.  The 'spirit' of the event is ruined.  It's ruined by a show of popularity/family/friends with the whoops and hollars for some graduates and stone silence for others who lack that support.  It makes me feel so sad that I don't like attending graduations.  And if you try to clap for everyone, you just get so tired and your hands hurt, and you're mostly alone, it's futile.  The 'popular' group doesn't see it or even consider the feelings of others, they just want to do what they want to do.

[MustardSeed]

I’m going to apologize to mrmarklin, as my question was an argument bait.  

Instead, I will restate with more honesty.  

I know where you’re coming from, I think opening with prayer does invite the spirit. 

It is my opinion that when we open congregation meetings with prayer and song  it parallels sacrament meeting .  Since clapping and cheering is inappropriate  in SM, it would create social discomfort and many people would have a hard time feeling the spirit. 

My opinion is that clapping and cheering is normal at a graduation, though it is a deterrent to efficiency. 

[MustardSeed]

4 minutes ago, alter idem said:

I agree on the Graduation.  But maybe they were referring to the 'spirit' of the event.  A spirit of accomplishment, of comradery, and celebration of the class which is graduating together.  They ask for no cheers and clapping until it's over, then we'll all celebrate the graduating class, but it never works because in a group that size, you're guaranteed that some will ignore the admonishment and that just provides the excuse for the rest to ignore it too.  The 'spirit' of the event is ruined.  It's ruined by a show of popularity/family/friends with the whoops and hollars for some graduates and stone silence for others who lack that support.  It makes me feel so sad that I don't like attending graduations.  And if you try to clap for everyone, you just get so tired and your hands hurt, and you're mostly alone, it's futile.  The 'popular' group doesn't see it or even consider the feelings of others, they just want to do what they want to do.

I agree with all of what you say.  I am convinced though that the speaker intended to mean the Holy Spirit. 

[SettingDogStar]

17 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I agree with all of what you say.  I am convinced though that the speaker intended to mean the Holy Spirit. 

I’m sure he meant the Holy Spirit. You were at a Church school and it’s pretty common for every event. It’s pretty silly in my opinion. 

[LoudmouthMormon]

Maybe it's just me, but I tend to have a very snarky/sarcastic attitude at things like graduations, family reunions, wedding photos, standing in line in the DMV, etc.  I have to watch myself to make sure my behavior is appropriate, but I keep finding myself drawing that line in places other than the "people in charge" think it should be drawn.  I am never intentionally a jerk, but I realize there is a certain type of person who thinks I am one (although they'd never use the word because they're too polite).  

Further, maybe it's just me, but I'm not really apologetic about this, don't consider it a character defect, or even a bad habit.  In some cases, I consider it my civic duty to let air out of overstuffed people.    I must spend much energy to avoid this mindset and behavior in the temple, because sarcasm in the celestial room really is inappro-pro.  Graduation ceremonies though?  Gimme a break.  Lifelong treasured memories are made when everyone is clapping and crazy uncle LM screams "naaaaaailed it!!!!"  Those treasured memories are even more treasured if you can actually see some master of ceremonies face turn red.   Extra points if you see a vein appear on her temple.

It never dawned on me to call foul on the "people in charge" for trying to manipulate me with the spirit.  I'm sure a rascal like me truly does disrupt their peace.  It's just that I think that's sometimes a good thing.

Edited July 24, 2019 by LoudmouthMormon

[MustardSeed]

25 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Maybe it's just me, but I tend to have a very snarky/sarcastic attitude at things like graduations, family reunions, wedding photos, standing in line in the DMV, etc.  I have to watch myself to make sure my behavior is appropriate, but I keep finding myself drawing that line in places other than the "people in charge" think it should be drawn.  I am never intentionally a jerk, but I realize there is a certain type of person who thinks I am one (although they'd never use the word because they're too polite).  

Further, maybe it's just me, but I'm not really apologetic about this, don't consider it a character defect, or even a bad habit.  In some cases, I consider it my civic duty to let air out of overstuffed people.    I must spend much energy to avoid this mindset and behavior in the temple, because sarcasm in the celestial room really is inappro-pro.  Graduation ceremonies though?  Gimme a break.  Lifelong treasured memories are made when everyone is clapping and crazy uncle LM screams "naaaaaailed it!!!!"  Those treasured memories are even more treasured if you can actually see some master of ceremonies face turn red.   Extra points if you see a vein appear on her temple.

It never dawned on me to call foul on the "people in charge" for trying to manipulate me with the spirit.  I'm sure a rascal like me truly does disrupt their peace.  It's just that I think that's sometimes a good thing.

FWIW I dog whistled.  

[The Nehor]

23 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Maybe it's just me, but I tend to have a very snarky/sarcastic attitude at things like graduations, family reunions, wedding photos, standing in line in the DMV, etc.  I have to watch myself to make sure my behavior is appropriate, but I keep finding myself drawing that line in places other than the "people in charge" think it should be drawn.  I am never intentionally a jerk, but I realize there is a certain type of person who thinks I am one (although they'd never use the word because they're too polite).  

Further, maybe it's just me, but I'm not really apologetic about this, don't consider it a character defect, or even a bad habit.  In some cases, I consider it my civic duty to let air out of overstuffed people.    I must spend much energy to avoid this mindset and behavior in the temple, because sarcasm in the celestial room really is inappro-pro.  Graduation ceremonies though?  Gimme a break.  Lifelong treasured memories are made when everyone is clapping and crazy uncle LM screams "naaaaaailed it!!!!"  Those treasured memories are even more treasured if you can actually see some master of ceremonies face turn red.   Extra points if you see a vein appear on her temple.

It never dawned on me to call foul on the "people in charge" for trying to manipulate me with the spirit.  I'm sure a rascal like me truly does disrupt their peace.  It's just that I think that's sometimes a good thing.

I just never saw graduations as a big deal. I only went to my High School one because my mother asked me to. I skipped my college graduation. When one of my sisters finished High School I texted her: “Congratulations on being found minimally competent to enter adult society.” Yeah, I am a cynic. For those worried about my sister do not be. She laughed and said it was her favorite congratulation she got for that event.  

I sympathize with your approach. I try to deflate windbag formality too. I do have some exceptions though. In formal church meetings I try not to distract from the Spirit because that is more important then my antics. I do try to give interesting Sunday School lessons that lead people to laugh and cry. I go a little oddball but make sure I am still teaching truth so the Spirit can testify.

But for other stuff: yeah. I have most of the Bishopric copying my example of wearing jeans and a t-shirt or polo to any meeting that is not on Sunday morning or explicitly formal. While I appreciate the concept of dignity a little I am not good at it. Do they still encourage the “quiet dignity” thing for missionaries? I was awful at that.

I like the Hugh Nibley quote:

“If you take yourself seriously, you won’t take the gospel seriously and the other way around. If you take the gospel seriously then you will say, now I know that man is nothing. . . . Oh, the nothingness of man. We can joke about ourselves once we take the gospel seriously and once we know its blessings and promises. Then we can relax and breathe easily and have some fun, which I don’t do enough of.”

Or:

 

[LoudmouthMormon]

Love it!

Another way of looking at things, is Light-minded vs. Light-hearted.  Nibley's quote is all about finding ways to be light-hearted.  The act of getting over ourselves.  The process of understanding we're not as critical to the functioning of the universe as we think we are. 

Light-minded is mocking sacred things.  Or using humor/sarcasm/dank wit for nefarious reasons.  Almost the direct opposite of worshiping God. 

When I'm being light-hearted, and someone else thinks it's light-mindedness, they have a problem and I don't.  Although if I'm interested in what they think, I need to change my approach.

When I'm being light-hearted, but something sacred is going on, I have a problem and need to stop it.

Edited July 24, 2019 by LoudmouthMormon

[Kenngo1969]

11 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

The first three I get. But the fourth-that meeting likely started with prayer, calling the Spirit. It’s reasonable to want the Presence to continue if possible. 

With no disrespect intended toward our august friend who posted the OP, that was my first reaction, as well.  Immediately, I thought of the Sesame Street song, "One of these things just doesn't belong here!"

Edited July 24, 2019 by Kenngo1969

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Tell them to flee Babylon while there is still time.

To where should they flee? Wyoming?

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

To where should they flee? Wyoming?

To those cracks in the Earth up North and down into the caverns where the Lost Ten Tribes are living.

[Duncan]

prior to my marriage I had a blessing and in it it said, they we "were meant to be together" but the marriage failed. Does that mean that anyone else I marry I wasn't meant to be together? why would God say that if he knew we would end up getting divorced? I don't know what to believe now