When the Spirit is used as a manipulative tool

[MustardSeed]

2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

prior to my marriage I had a blessing and in it it said, they we "were meant to be together" but the marriage failed. Does that mean that anyone else I marry I wasn't meant to be together? why would God say that if he knew we would end up getting divorced? I don't know what to believe now

Could that have been the bent of the blessing giver? 

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

prior to my marriage I had a blessing and in it it said, they we "were meant to be together" but the marriage failed. Does that mean that anyone else I marry I wasn't meant to be together? why would God say that if he knew we would end up getting divorced? I don't know what to believe now

Did the Spirit testify to you that that statement was correct?

[MustardSeed]

3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

prior to my marriage I had a blessing and in it it said, they we "were meant to be together" but the marriage failed. Does that mean that anyone else I marry I wasn't meant to be together? why would God say that if he knew we would end up getting divorced? I don't know what to believe now

Plus if “meant to be” is actually a thing then in truth your story isn’t yet over so maybe in the big picture the things you learned will have a good effect on your future... if you remain righteous. 

(For the record I don’t ascribe to any “meant to be’s.”  My favorite quote is, “ soulmates are not found, they are made. “). 

[Duncan]

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Did the Spirit testify to you that that statement was correct?

at that age I just trusted that it was true and it came from God, so there was no hint of questioning

[Duncan]

10 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Plus if “meant to be” is actually a thing then in truth your story isn’t yet over so maybe in the big picture the things you learned will have a good effect on your future... if you remain righteous. 

(For the record I don’t ascribe to any “meant to be’s.”  My favorite quote is, “ soulmates are not found, they are made. “). 

well, my ex isn't for me besides of which she remarried not long after we broke up

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

why would God say that if he knew we would end up getting divorced?

Are you sure God said it? I know with complete certainty that God speaks through priesthood blessings. I also know that not everyone who gives a priesthood blessing speaks for God in every instance.

Quote

I don't know what to believe now

Have you discussed that with God? I suspect He would have some input.

[Duncan]

13 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Are you sure God said it? I know with complete certainty that God speaks through priesthood blessings. I also know that not everyone who gives a priesthood blessing speaks for God in every instance.

Have you discussed that with God? I suspect He would have some input.

I have!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have gotten bupkus!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's Canadian for nothing!!!!! I am flapping in the wind here with these previous blessings, what to make of them. I wrote them out or portions as per Elder Scott's advice and it's just a mystery that doesn't seem to be solved

[Hamba Tuhan]

15 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I am flapping in the wind here with these previous blessings, what to make of them.

I've PM-ed you.

[MustardSeed]

Dear Duncan,

my best friend was given a blessing by our SP while her husband was in ICU.  She was told specifically he would survive.  

He died. 

Sometimes, the words of a blessing are of man. It’s just not as easy as we’d like it all to be.  Imo. 

 

 

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Hmmmm......the Middle Ages approach to spreading Christianity. The sword and then the missionaries. Gotta love the classics.

Poland deifies Paul, Reagan, and Thatcher. 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Plus if “meant to be” is actually a thing then in truth your story isn’t yet over so maybe in the big picture the things you learned will have a good effect on your future... if you remain righteous. 

(For the record I don’t ascribe to any “meant to be’s.”  My favorite quote is, “ soulmates are not found, they are made. “). 

I know a lot of folks who found their soulmates...me included. 

 

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

To those cracks in the Earth up North and down into the caverns where the Lost Ten Tribes are living.

My uncle believed that. 

[MustardSeed]

44 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I know a lot of folks who found their soulmates...me included. 

 

Lucky guy! 

[Rain]

I'm type 1 diabetic. Someone once tried to sell be some concoction that would "cure my diabetes". I asked for double blind studies on it. She asked me to pray about it like Joseph Smith did.

I think the spirit at graduations thing may be a thing at the moment.  Our principal asked us not to spoil the spirit of the event (my son's high school graduation) with clapping. He is not a a member. It didn't even phase me.

I am one who really dislikes the cheers, horns etc - mother of 3 children who didn't hear the names of 2 of them because of the noise being made for other graduates.

[Hamba Tuhan]

39 minutes ago, Rain said:

I am one who really dislikes the cheers, horns etc ...

I don't have a problem with requests to maintain decorum at an event such as a graduation. I do have a problem with the explanation being a theological one designed to make me feel guilty or sinful about my natural exuberance. I think that was the OP's point.

Which actually just reminded me of another nightmare memory (I have too many!) from my time in the MTC. We were in what I think was called a 'large group meeting' in something resembling a lecture theatre, including seating with fold-down writing desks. During a particularly overly dramatic presentation of some kind -- were the teachers in the MTC all drama students? -- one of the Elders in my district either folded his desk down or up, and it made a funny noise. Everyone in our row snickered, as did the missionaries immediately in front of us and behind us.

Whereupon the BYU student who had been 'performing' stopped the meeting and berated us in front of everyone else for having driven the Spirit out of the meeting with our harmless and barely detectable giggles ... which had the actual effect of driving the Spirit out of the meeting ...

Edited July 25, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[The Nehor]

55 minutes ago, Rain said:

I'm type 1 diabetic. Someone once tried to sell be some concoction that would "cure my diabetes". I asked for double blind studies on it. She asked me to pray about it like Joseph Smith did.

That is when you tell her to take her priestcraft elsewhere.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Poland deifies Paul, Reagan, and Thatcher. 

And if those three had invaded Poland to convert it we would probably be living in this world:

 

Remember to “duck and cover”. It will keep you safe.

[SettingDogStar]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I don't have a problem with requests to maintain decorum at an event such as a graduation. I do have a problem with the explanation being a theological one designed to make me feel guilty or sinful about my natural exuberance. I think that was the OP's point.

Which actually just reminded me of another nightmare memory (I have too many!) from my time in the MTC. We were in what I think was called a 'large group meeting' in something resembling a lecture theatre, including seating with fold-down writing desks. During a particularly overly dramatic presentation of some kind -- were the teachers in the MTC all drama students? -- one of the Elders in my district either folded his desk down or up, and it made a funny noise. Everyone in our row snickered, as did the missionaries immediately in front of us and behind us.

Whereupon the BYU student who had been 'performing' stopped the meeting and berated us in front of everyone else for having driven the Spirit out of the meeting with our harmless and barely detectable giggles ... which had the actual effect of driving the Spirit out of the meeting ...

The fact that people think the spirit just up and leaves and ain’t snickering with everyone else is just..silly. If we consider the Holy Ghost a God then He possesses humor just like us and something appropriately funny will, I imagine, invite his presence. I imagine Jesus made jokes and laughed just like us, and if He doesnt have a sense of humor then I guess Hell will be a better fit for me.

Ivw heard comments like this constantly from professors, bishops, youth leaders, and mission companions. The lack of some light Clapping, Hallelujahs, Laughing, jubilant singing or other “spirit driving” practices is why our services feel like a funeral dirge. 

I always wondered why we have to whisper so darn quiet in the Temple. I get that it represents Gods home, but does God whisper to us in heaven? Do the angels just shuffle around the throne whispering pleasentries? No. Heaven is a place of learning, prayer, conversation, and joy! I think we take ourselves a little to serious sometimes.

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

And if those three had invaded Poland to convert it we would probably be living in this world:

 

Remember to “duck and cover”. It will keep you safe.

Don’t think so. There was no danger of invasion.The Poles won their freedom without bloodshed. They are very proud of that. Having visited there over 20 years ago with my son Abogadissimo after his mission, I can attest to the great respect they have for the four who spurred it....John Paul, Reagan, Thatcher, and Wałęsa.

I practiced duck and cover a lot growing up in Los Alamos NM during the ‘50s and early ‘60s. Given the right circumstances, it can keep you safer. At the time, this was quite popular there in a grotesquely ironic sort of way.....we were in the top five of the Soviet bombing target list....

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=Awr9DtMubDldsTkAw5DBGOd_;_ylu=X3oDMTEyY3BiODhvBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjY1NDdfMQRzZWMDc2M-?p=we'll+al+go+together+when+we+go&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dwe%27ll%2Bal%2Bgo%2Btogether%2Bwhen%2Bwe%2Bgo%26ei%3DUTF-8&fr=ipad&turl=https%3A%2F%2Ftse2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOVP.vhzbHiMZSY71JlyQH_M_xQG4Fo%26amp%3Bpid%3DApi%26w%3D144%26h%3D77%26c%3D7&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DfrAEmhqdLFs&***=Tom+Lehrer+-+We+Will+All+Go+Together+When+We+Go&l=207&vid=bdf42ba21ebac16b44c0580dd618e39c&sigr=11bf03iuq&sigb=12c1d6cro&sigt=11fo22qov&sigi=12oap4lir

 

 

Edited July 25, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[mrmarklin]

11 hours ago, Duncan said:

prior to my marriage I had a blessing and in it it said, they we "were meant to be together" but the marriage failed. Does that mean that anyone else I marry I wasn't meant to be together? why would God say that if he knew we would end up getting divorced? I don't know what to believe now

Meant to be together at that point in time!

 

later, well all bets are off, so to speak. 😉Did you learn anything from the experience?

Edited July 25, 2019 by mrmarklin

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

The fact that people think the spirit just up and leaves and ain’t snickering with everyone else is just..silly. If we consider the Holy Ghost a God then He possesses humor just like us and something appropriately funny will, I imagine, invite his presence. I imagine Jesus made jokes and laughed just like us, and if He doesnt have a sense of humor then I guess Hell will be a better fit for me.

Ivw heard comments like this constantly from professors, bishops, youth leaders, and mission companions. The lack of some light Clapping, Hallelujahs, Laughing, jubilant singing or other “spirit driving” practices is why our services feel like a funeral dirge. 

I always wondered why we have to whisper so darn quiet in the Temple. I get that it represents Gods home, but does God whisper to us in heaven? Do the angels just shuffle around the throne whispering pleasentries? No. Heaven is a place of learning, prayer, conversation, and joy! I think we take ourselves a little to serious sometimes.

I agree we can sometimes go overboard in the quiet zone, but folks go to the temple to deal with serious problems, to seek solace, revelation, forgiveness, peace, understanding, consolation, and to commune quietly with the Spirit. Out of respect for others (and for ourselves when we need those things) I don’t think it’s unreasonable to be try to be still for a couple of hours. We can yuck it up for the other 22 hours of the day.

I recently visited several historic old Catholic churches during a trip back to my home in northern New Mexico. Very reverent places. Giggling, laughter, loud talking, conversations would have been out of place.  It was quite refreshing to sit in the cool air and look at the icons, art work, stained glass, and craftsmanship in reverent stillness. Some were there to pray. We were quiet out of respect for those people.

Umberto Eco wrote an interesting novel based on the question, “Did Jesus laugh?” The Name of the Rose.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Stargazer]

On 7/24/2019 at 3:29 AM, The Nehor said:

I think I am glad I do not live in Utah or Idaho.  

I heard THAT.  Or in other words: Amen!

I should note that I lived there for a few months once, while attempting to attend BYU, but my overall feeling is that it is a nice place to visit.

[Stargazer]

On 7/24/2019 at 3:28 AM, MustardSeed said:

1. When I was at Ricks college my very first day in class my religion professor opened with the following caution- “young ladies don’t ever let a young man convince you to marry him by telling you that the Spirit confirmed that you are to be his wife.  That is coercive, and you are entitled to your own process”.  My feelers went up and never went down, apparently. 

I seem to recall something like that being said in a talk given by Gerald Lund on personal revelation.  He added a story he got from a young lady who had this RM tell her that it had been revealed to him that they had known each other in the pre-existence and they had agreed to get married.  Her response to him was "I'm not making that mistake again!"  LOL, and amen!

I think it's important to remember, however, that the Spirit will strive with us to important ends, if we are receptive to it.  In respect of my marriage, my wife and I both separately received strong spiritual impressions that we should marry. In fact, it was one of the most striking spiritual experiences of my entire life -- and after 50 years in the Church, that's saying something.  Could a young (or old) man receive a strong impression to marry a particular woman?  I believe he could.  But should he presume to burden her with this, without her receiving an uncoerced independent withness?  Absolutely not!  Same applies in the reverse.  

[Stargazer]

22 hours ago, Mark Beesley said:

I recall having a discussion with someone shortly after the US invaded Iraq. Unable to justify the invasion with secular arguments, he proclaimed that the invasion would directly lead to missionaries in Iraq and that the Spirit had confirmed this to him.  I’m still waiting.

Well, there's still time! 🙂 

22 hours ago, Mark Beesley said:

I think this is the worst type of manipulation, but he was young and I forgive him.

How was he trying to manipulate you?  It sounds like you two were having a dialogue, trying to convince each other of the validity of your arguments.  Is invoking the "spirit card", as it were, a manipulation in this case?  I can kind of see it, but it seems a bit of a stretch.

 

[Stargazer]

19 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Hmmmm......the Middle Ages approach to spreading Christianity. The sword and then the missionaries. Gotta love the classics.

You know, that might have happened in a few places, but surprisingly, peaceful missionary work in Europe was more the rule than the exception. For example, where I now live used to be within the old Kingdom of the South Saxons (Sussex, England). It was in 681 AD that the newly converted King of Sussex, Æthelwealh, invited Bishop (later Saint) Wilfrid to Sussex in order to preach Christ to his subjects, who were pagans. They were not forced to convert, and even by 940 there were still pagans living in Sussex. Just a few miles from my house is the tiny village of Edburton which has a church that was originally built at the behest of St. Eadburh of Winchester, a granddaughter of King Alfred the Great, who had it done in order to help convert the pagans still living at the village (which was much larger then).  Perhaps in other places conversion occurred by the sword, but in the British Isles, not so much.

In this video I show Edburton and discuss St. Eadburh and the church she had built: Edburton and Its Castle

I emphasize that I am not claiming that no forcible conversion to Christianity occurred in Europe, just that it was nowhere near as prevalent as you seem to suggest.