When the Spirit is used as a manipulative tool

[Stargazer]

19 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m going to apologize to mrmarklin, as my question was an argument bait.  

Instead, I will restate with more honesty.  

I know where you’re coming from, I think opening with prayer does invite the spirit. 

It is my opinion that when we open congregation meetings with prayer and song  it parallels sacrament meeting .  Since clapping and cheering is inappropriate  in SM, it would create social discomfort and many people would have a hard time feeling the spirit. 

My opinion is that clapping and cheering is normal at a graduation, though it is a deterrent to efficiency. 

Well, they offer prayers to open sessions of Congress, too, but given what frequently happens there, I don't think the Spirit is present very often. If ever.

[Stargazer]

19 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Maybe it's just me, but I tend to have a very snarky/sarcastic attitude at things like graduations, family reunions, wedding photos, standing in line in the DMV, etc.  I have to watch myself to make sure my behavior is appropriate, but I keep finding myself drawing that line in places other than the "people in charge" think it should be drawn.  I am never intentionally a jerk, but I realize there is a certain type of person who thinks I am one (although they'd never use the word because they're too polite).  

When I got my first Good Conduct Medal (for 3 three years of good behavior in the US Army) they asked me if I wanted it presented in a morning formation in front of the artillery battery I belonged to. I told them thanks but no thanks.  For my second award the question didn't even come up. If I had done something remarkable to get a medal, well, ok, it might be worth making some kind of deal over. But not for keeping my nose clean.

I received two Associate Degrees from my local community college, but I declined to attend either graduation event.  My nephew spiced up his Bachelor's degree graduation by turning a cartwheel in his robe and mortarboard as he approached the stand to receive his sheepskin.  My brother and his wife were mortified at this behavior, but I thought it was a super demonstration!

[Stargazer]

18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

“Congratulations on being found minimally competent to enter adult society.” Yeah, I am a cynic. For those worried about my sister do not be. She laughed and said it was her favorite congratulation she got for that event.  

The Nehor: have I told you lately I love you?  ❤️  If you were not a part of this august message board, it would be necessary to drag you onto it!  Sometimes I wish I knew you in real life; I'm sure you are a hoot there, too.

[Stargazer]

17 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Love it!

Another way of looking at things, is Light-minded vs. Light-hearted.  Nibley's quote is all about finding ways to be light-hearted.  The act of getting over ourselves.  The process of understanding we're not as critical to the functioning of the universe as we think we are. 

Light-minded is mocking sacred things.  Or using humor/sarcasm/dank wit for nefarious reasons.  Almost the direct opposite of worshiping God. 

When I'm being light-hearted, and someone else thinks it's light-mindedness, they have a problem and I don't.  Although if I'm interested in what they think, I need to change my approach.

When I'm being light-hearted, but something sacred is going on, I have a problem and need to stop it.

The late Paul Dunn once said something to the effect that too many Latter-day Saints go through life looking like they had been raised on dill pickles and lemons.

It so happens that I love dill pickles and one of my favorite drinks is salty lemon juice. I do know what he was trying to say, however.

[Stargazer]

13 hours ago, Duncan said:

prior to my marriage I had a blessing and in it it said, they we "were meant to be together" but the marriage failed. Does that mean that anyone else I marry I wasn't meant to be together? why would God say that if he knew we would end up getting divorced? I don't know what to believe now

Just because it failed doesn't mean you weren't meant to be together. From what I understand of your experience (as you've described it), your ex chose to go another way when she should not have done so.  

Sometimes I am very much afraid that when I get to the other side I will discover that HF had intended for me to do a number of things that I never got around to doing, or that I put myself out of the running for, all because I made choices that disqualified me for them.

It's "foreordination", not "predestination," by the way. 

[Stargazer]

14 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Plus if “meant to be” is actually a thing then in truth your story isn’t yet over so maybe in the big picture the things you learned will have a good effect on your future... if you remain righteous. 

(For the record I don’t ascribe to any “meant to be’s.”  My favorite quote is, “ soulmates are not found, they are made. “). 

I don't know about that "not found, but made" thing.

My wife and I found, very shortly after we first became aware of each other, that we were soulmates.  On the other hand, I will say that those who are not soulmates at first can make each other such, with diligent effort.  And soulmates at first can lose that special "something" unless they diligently work to recreate it.

[MustardSeed]

5 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I don't know about that "not found, but made" thing.

My wife and I found, very shortly after we first became aware of each other, that we were soulmates.  On the other hand, I will say that those who are not soulmates at first can make each other such, with diligent effort.  And soulmates at first can lose that special "something" unless they diligently work to recreate it.

Good for you. Lucky guy. 

[Stargazer]

11 hours ago, Duncan said:

I have!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have gotten bupkus!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's Canadian for nothing!!!!! I am flapping in the wind here with these previous blessings, what to make of them. I wrote them out or portions as per Elder Scott's advice and it's just a mystery that doesn't seem to be solved

You are one of my favorite people here, and I am distressed that you are in this position. I have mysteries, too, as to certain things I thought would have happened, but have not.  As I said in an earlier post, I don't know if those certain things are something still for the future, or if I did something or failed to do something that took those things out of the realm of possibility for me.  I do have a very positive witness, however, that God knows who I am, and yet still loves me. So I am content about that at least. And I have faith that if there are things out of my control that make it so that certain other things fail for me at this time, that this will be made up for in eternity.  When Jesus said "my peace I leave with you", peace is what one can have through the Atonement, if one has faith that God loves one. And the "present distress" as someone once put it, is only temporary.

[Duncan]

4 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

Meant to be together at that point in time!

 

later, well all bets are off, so to speak. 😉Did you learn anything from the experience?

hahahaha! yeah!

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

You are one of my favorite people here, and I am distressed that you are in this position. I have mysteries, too, as to certain things I thought would have happened, but have not.  As I said in an earlier post, I don't know if those certain things are something still for the future, or if I did something or failed to do something that took those things out of the realm of possibility for me.  I do have a very positive witness, however, that God knows who I am, and yet still loves me. So I am content about that at least. And I have faith that if there are things out of my control that make it so that certain other things fail for me at this time, that this will be made up for in eternity.  When Jesus said "my peace I leave with you", peace is what one can have through the Atonement, if one has faith that God loves one. And the "present distress" as someone once put it, is only temporary.

❤️❤️❤️❤️

[Amulek]

On 7/23/2019 at 9:28 PM, MustardSeed said:

1. When I was at Ricks college my very first day in class my religion professor opened with the following caution- “young ladies don’t ever let a young man convince you to marry him by telling you that the Spirit confirmed that you are to be his wife.  That is coercive, and you are entitled to your own process”.

Excellent (and true) advice. 

One of my regrets in life is that I once used such a line myself...to break up with a girl I was dating at BYU. 

I knew she was very aware of the axiom, so when I was ready to end things I just dropped the 'revelation' bomb and - sure enough - she walked away as I expected. 

I'm not sure why I didn't just break up with her normally; I was usually pretty mature about that sort of thing back in my dating days. 

But for some reason breaking up with her under the guise of false revelation just seemed like the easiest, most efficient way of ending things.

I mean, from her perspective, she got to be the one to dump me and leave in a huff, grateful for having dodged a bullet by avoiding a man with such a misguided idea of stewardship. And from my perspective, we got to break up with her not feeling too bad about herself or anything, so it seemed like a win-win. 

Still, I regret being the guy responsible for adding one more woman to the list of those who can say they have had some guy pull that line on them. 

Hopefully, she is married with kids and busy living happily ever after now.  

 

[mfbukowski]

17 hours ago, Duncan said:

prior to my marriage I had a blessing and in it it said, they we "were meant to be together" but the marriage failed. Does that mean that anyone else I marry I wasn't meant to be together? why would God say that if he knew we would end up getting divorced? I don't know what to believe now

This much I can tell you.

Stop believing in magic spells and rely on your own inspiration, not what others may tell you what God says about your life.

And that includes this.😜

[smac97]

On 7/23/2019 at 8:28 PM, MustardSeed said:

When the Spirit is used as a manipulative tool

I think this title is not quite apt, as I don't think the Spirit can be "used as a manipulative tool" (assuming "manipulative" is construed with its negative connotation).

Consider D&:C 121:

Quote

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile...

...

37 ... when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

It is possible to mis-use correct principles ("wresting the scriptures," for example).  Similarly, it is possible to improperly, or even falsely, appeal to "the Spirit."

But I don't think the Spirit can actually be used to coerce or improperly manipulate another person.  If such a thing is attempted, "behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; {and} the Spirit of the Lord is grieved ... {and} is withdrawn."

Quote

1. When I was at Ricks college my very first day in class my religion professor opened with the following caution- “young ladies don’t ever let a young man convince you to marry him by telling you that the Spirit confirmed that you are to be his wife.  That is coercive, and you are entitled to your own process”.  My feelers went up and never went down, apparently. 

That happened to my mom while she was at BYU.  Twice, in fact.  Way back in the 60s.

Quote

2. One of the most abhorrent parenting practices I observed by a friend was when I heard her tell her crying 5 year old that God isn’t happy when we cry.  “Don’t you want to make God happy?” 

That is indeed problematic.

Quote

3. Later in life, a door to door salesman peddling Book of Mormon video tapes was getting no traction with me so he pulled the old “don’t you want the Spirit in your home?”  I threw him off my porch.  (Sorry for the repeat story here.)

Yeesh!

Quote

4. Today, I heard it again.  I’m not the only one who responded this way, as people around me raised eyebrows as well.  I attended BYU  graduation for my kid (he made it lol!) and before the names were read, the speaker said what every other graduation requests- please no cheers so we can get thru the names- only it was said this way: “please no outbursts of cheering so we can maintain The Spirit during this event.”  

Hmm.

Quote

Here are my thoughts- this was a graduation.  Not a sacrament meeting.  We clapped for the musical performance and they let us clap and really whoop it up at the end.  So in my mind this request had nothing to do with the Spirit and more to do with efficiency.  Efficiency is GREAT!  But to suggest it was about the Spirit felt like a falsehood and a manipulative ploy.  Certainly not all out intentional but probably just convenient for the speaker. 

A good cautionary tale, then.

Quote

I recognize I’m hard wired now to notice such things and may see them when others won’t and I might even be wrong.  

Thoughts? 

I felt some very strong promptings when I was pursuing my now wife.  I had a strong feeling I needed to propose to her.  We met at BYU, dated, got serious, and at the end of the semester (she was returning to her home in Washington State, and I was off to some military training), I asked her to think about the prospect.  Later that summer, I flew up to Washington to spend a few days with her and to meet her family.  I proposed on the first night, and she burst into tears.  So I withdrew it and asked that she continue to think about it over the remainder of the summer and the upcoming semester.  We then spent several days having a blast with her family, going to La Push, playing games, watching movies, making cookies, visiting Seattle, etc.  Near the end of my visit she took me aside and told me that I could re-ask her my previous question.  On my last day there we took a ferry ride over to Seattle, and I proposed to her as we crossed Puget Sound.  She said yes.

We hit our 23rd anniversary this December.  It has been a wonderful experience to be married to her, and I love her a lot.  So I think the things I learned were:

1. I kept my "promptings" to myself (until after we were married, anyway).  They were for me, not for her.

2. I had to trust my wife to make her own decision.  I was really, really hoping she would say yes, but it had to be her decision to make.

3. The Spirit played a strong role in each of our decision-making processes, but it did not override our agency.  For me, going along with what the Spirit wanted me to do was easy-peasy (if you knew my wife, you would understand why).  My wife was a bit nervous about getting married (hence the bursting-into-tears thing), but she also felt prompted by the Spirit, and eventually followed it.

4. I had to have some patience for the above process to work.  I also had to keep open the possibility that she could have said no.  I needed to be in a place where I could accept and respect such a decision.  I think I was.  In fact, my wife later told me that my staying even-keeled and calm in response to her bursting-into-tears thing ended up being a significant assurance for her that she could marry me.

In short, the principles laid out in D&C 121 (cited above) are not limited to the specific exercise of priesthood authority.  My wife's approach to me is aptly summarized as being motivated "by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; by kindness," and so on.  She is a wonderful person, and I am very fortunate to have her in my life.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited July 25, 2019 by smac97

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Don’t think so. There was no danger of invasion.The Poles won their freedom without bloodshed. They are very proud of that. Having visited there over 20 years ago with my son Abogadissimo after his mission, I can attest to the great respect they have for the four who spurred it....John Paul, Reagan, Thatcher, and Wałęsa.

I practiced duck and cover a lot growing up in Los Alamos NM during the ‘50s and early ‘60s. Given the right circumstances, it can keep you safer. At the time, this was quite popular there in a grotesquely ironic sort of way.....we were in the top five of the Soviet bombing target list....

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=Awr9DtMubDldsTkAw5DBGOd_;_ylu=X3oDMTEyY3BiODhvBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjY1NDdfMQRzZWMDc2M-?p=we'll+al+go+together+when+we+go&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dwe%27ll%2Bal%2Bgo%2Btogether%2Bwhen%2Bwe%2Bgo%26ei%3DUTF-8&fr=ipad&turl=https%3A%2F%2Ftse2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOVP.vhzbHiMZSY71JlyQH_M_xQG4Fo%26amp%3Bpid%3DApi%26w%3D144%26h%3D77%26c%3D7&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DfrAEmhqdLFs&***=Tom+Lehrer+-+We+Will+All+Go+Together+When+We+Go&l=207&vid=bdf42ba21ebac16b44c0580dd618e39c&sigr=11bf03iuq&sigb=12c1d6cro&sigt=11fo22qov&sigi=12oap4lir

 

 

I know. My comment was designed to show the absurdity of comparing NATO nation efforts to defuse the Cold War as comparable to the Middle Age “invade and convert strategy”. If NATO had tried that in Poland there would be a lot more strontium in the atmosphere and probably a lot fewer people. Upside though would be the current climate change problem would be extreme swing towards cold instead of the less extreme heat we see now. Not sure if that would be better though.

Poland had a rough ride. While the Polish government almost deserved what happened to them in the Second World War many of the people did not. I remember the wall coming down and the Russians leaving the Warsaw Pact countries. John the Revelator did a good job there.  

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

The fact that people think the spirit just up and leaves and ain’t snickering with everyone else is just..silly. If we consider the Holy Ghost a God then He possesses humor just like us and something appropriately funny will, I imagine, invite his presence. I imagine Jesus made jokes and laughed just like us, and if He doesnt have a sense of humor then I guess Hell will be a better fit for me.

Ivw heard comments like this constantly from professors, bishops, youth leaders, and mission companions. The lack of some light Clapping, Hallelujahs, Laughing, jubilant singing or other “spirit driving” practices is why our services feel like a funeral dirge. 

I always wondered why we have to whisper so darn quiet in the Temple. I get that it represents Gods home, but does God whisper to us in heaven? Do the angels just shuffle around the throne whispering pleasentries? No. Heaven is a place of learning, prayer, conversation, and joy! I think we take ourselves a little to serious sometimes.

I do think the temple is a place for whispers. Heaven is probably louder but the temple is a time most need quiet so they can hear the joys and conversation and laughing of heaven. When you see the quiet tears of joy in the temple you know people are hearing it. I do not want to be a distraction to others who are often in pain or confusion or distressed seeking solace and information in the temple. It is like making a lot of noise while someone is on a critically important phone call. Once we are in heaven and don’t need the phone I suspect there will be less of that.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

You know, that might have happened in a few places, but surprisingly, peaceful missionary work in Europe was more the rule than the exception. For example, where I now live used to be within the old Kingdom of the South Saxons (Sussex, England). It was in 681 AD that the newly converted King of Sussex, Æthelwealh, invited Bishop (later Saint) Wilfrid to Sussex in order to preach Christ to his subjects, who were pagans. They were not forced to convert, and even by 940 there were still pagans living in Sussex. Just a few miles from my house is the tiny village of Edburton which has a church that was originally built at the behest of St. Eadburh of Winchester, a granddaughter of King Alfred the Great, who had it done in order to help convert the pagans still living at the village (which was much larger then).  Perhaps in other places conversion occurred by the sword, but in the British Isles, not so much.

In this video I show Edburton and discuss St. Eadburh and the church she had built: Edburton and Its Castle

I emphasize that I am not claiming that no forcible conversion to Christianity occurred in Europe, just that it was nowhere near as prevalent as you seem to suggest.

I did not mean to suggest that it was the primary method of conversion; just that it was used in some situations where it was feasible. It happened a bit more under Rome from what I remember but once the Empire split and weakened it was much rarer. Eventually though almost everyone was at least nominally Muslim or Christian and we went with just killing each other over that though we mostly just wanted to all go on Holy field trips and steal each other’s stuff.  

One of my favorite alternate history short stories is “Islands in the Sea”. In it the Byzantine Empire and Constantinople fell early and Christian and Muslim missionaries are competing more as missionaries then as armies to convert the rest of the world. Fun story to watch them try to fight for a king’s favor.

Edited July 25, 2019 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Amulek said:

Excellent (and true) advice. 

One of my regrets in life is that I once used such a line myself...to break up with a girl I was dating at BYU. 

I knew she was very aware of the axiom, so when I was ready to end things I just dropped the 'revelation' bomb and - sure enough - she walked away as I expected. 

I'm not sure why I didn't just break up with her normally; I was usually pretty mature about that sort of thing back in my dating days. 

But for some reason breaking up with her under the guise of false revelation just seemed like the easiest, most efficient way of ending things.

I mean, from her perspective, she got to be the one to dump me and leave in a huff, grateful for having dodged a bullet by avoiding a man with such a misguided idea of stewardship. And from my perspective, we got to break up with her not feeling too bad about herself or anything, so it seemed like a win-win. 

Still, I regret being the guy responsible for adding one more woman to the list of those who can say they have had some guy pull that line on them. 

Hopefully, she is married with kids and busy living happily ever after now.  

 

I have shared this before but my favorite use of this was a guy claiming that by revelation he knew that this girl (friend of mine) had promised to marry him in premortality.

Her response: “Well, I am not making that mistake twice.”

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Just because it failed doesn't mean you weren't meant to be together. From what I understand of your experience (as you've described it), your ex chose to go another way when she should not have done so.  

Sometimes I am very much afraid that when I get to the other side I will discover that HF had intended for me to do a number of things that I never got around to doing, or that I put myself out of the running for, all because I made choices that disqualified me for them.

It's "foreordination", not "predestination," by the way. 

There are a few passages in my patriarchal blessing that give me pause still but I am okay now if I sinned them away. The atonement is bigger then my sins and I could be on Plan B or, more likely, Plan XZ by now and it is still okay.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

The Nehor: have I told you lately I love you?  ❤️  If you were not a part of this august message board, it would be necessary to drag you onto it!  Sometimes I wish I knew you in real life; I'm sure you are a hoot there, too.

I actually come across as relatively quiet and unassuming until I open my mouth or I am teaching. I like myself though. As much as I dislike my ADHD sometimes I think the impulsivity and zaniness it accentuates are worth the drawbacks.

C’mon over sometime. You can play with my little friends:

[Rain]

13 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I don't have a problem with requests to maintain decorum at an event such as a graduation. I do have a problem with the explanation being a theological one designed to make me feel guilty or sinful about my natural exuberance. I think that was the OP's point.

Which actually just reminded me of another nightmare memory (I have too many!) from my time in the MTC. We were in what I think was called a 'large group meeting' in something resembling a lecture theatre, including seating with fold-down writing desks. During a particularly overly dramatic presentation of some kind -- were the teachers in the MTC all drama students? -- one of the Elders in my district either folded his desk down or up, and it made a funny noise. Everyone in our row snickered, as did the missionaries immediately in front of us and behind us.

Whereupon the BYU student who had been 'performing' stopped the meeting and berated us in front of everyone else for having driven the Spirit out of the meeting with our harmless and barely detectable giggles ... which had the actual effect of driving the Spirit out of the meeting ...

What I was trying to say was that it is possible that the speaker may have mispoke or Mustard may have misheard or misunderstood "the spirit" of the occasion for "the Spirit". Since I heard it at a nonreligious graduation just a couple of months ago and know these things tend to spread I figured there was a possibility that it was said in a decorum way, but understood in a spiritual way though I could see it said in the spiritual way as well at a church school. So without knowing the intent of the speaker in this case I will refrain from judgment of what was actually meant, but agree that if it was meant as the "Spirit" it shouldn't have been said.

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Good for you. Lucky guy. 

Thanks!

But if I thought it was luck, I would feel guilty because I won some kind of lottery, some kind of unearned prize. There's are those here who haven't had this particular "luck", and what makes me so special?  And then we come to the question of "just deserts."  Duncan lost his wife because she decided to break their marriage, and he has looked but hasn't been able to find another.  Does he not "deserve" a loving companion?  Why did the Lord bless me with one so quickly after my wife died, but he, in his own words, gets "bupkis"?  Would it be better to say I got lucky, and thus remove any hint that I deserved something he did not?  Even though it was clear to me it wasn't luck?

I tend to think that we are ALL being tested with that which makes our tests most probative.  "What will you do today?" is a question that General Lee asks himself in the film "Gettysburg".  Indeed, will I get rebellious with the Lord because I haven't gotten what I think I "deserve"?  Or will I be patiently obedient despite my doubts, concerns and fears?  I have these thoughts all the time.  I'm sure others do as well.  Joseph Smith wondered what the deal was while he was languishing in Liberty Jail. 

DC 121:1,2 - 

O God, where art thou? And where is the pavilion that covereth thy hiding place? How long shall thy hand be stayed, and thine eye, yea thy pure eye, behold from the eternal heavens the wrongs of thy people and of thy servants, and thine ear be penetrated with their cries?

The Lord gave him this answer, which ought to apply to everyone who wonders "Why me, Lord?"

DC 121:7,8

My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment; And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes.

In DC 76:51-53, we are told what is necessary to inherit the Celestial Kingdom:

They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given — that by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power; and who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

To overcome by faith means to endure to the end.  And by doing so we are "valiant in the testimony of Jesus," which is what those who inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom are not, according to verse 79.

So, endure to the end, having faith that all will be revealed and all wrongs righted.

Sorry for preaching...

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

You know, that might have happened in a few places, but surprisingly, peaceful missionary work in Europe was more the rule than the exception. For example, where I now live used to be within the old Kingdom of the South Saxons (Sussex, England). It was in 681 AD that the newly converted King of Sussex, Æthelwealh, invited Bishop (later Saint) Wilfrid to Sussex in order to preach Christ to his subjects, who were pagans. They were not forced to convert, and even by 940 there were still pagans living in Sussex. Just a few miles from my house is the tiny village of Edburton which has a church that was originally built at the behest of St. Eadburh of Winchester, a granddaughter of King Alfred the Great, who had it done in order to help convert the pagans still living at the village (which was much larger then).  Perhaps in other places conversion occurred by the sword, but in the British Isles, not so much.

In this video I show Edburton and discuss St. Eadburh and the church she had built: Edburton and Its Castle

I emphasize that I am not claiming that no forcible conversion to Christianity occurred in Europe, just that it was nowhere near as prevalent as you seem to suggest.

“The Last Kingdom?”

[Rain]

 

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I seem to recall something like that being said in a talk given by Gerald Lund on personal revelation.  He added a story he got from a young lady who had this RM tell her that it had been revealed to him that they had known each other in the pre-existence and they had agreed to get married.  Her response to him was "I'm not making that mistake again!"  LOL, and amen!

I think it's important to remember, however, that the Spirit will strive with us to important ends, if we are receptive to it.  In respect of my marriage, my wife and I both separately received strong spiritual impressions that we should marry. In fact, it was one of the most striking spiritual experiences of my entire life -- and after 50 years in the Church, that's saying something.  Could a young (or old) man receive a strong impression to marry a particular woman?  I believe he could.  But should he presume to burden her with this, without her receiving an uncoerced independent withness?  Absolutely not!  Same applies in the reverse.  

Four years before my husband asked me the Spirit let me know I would be his wife. I was very aware though that this information was for me and not him. He still had growing to do on a mission etc. He also had the choice to choose someone else and it wasn't for me to manipulate him into marrying me.

Nearly 4 years later I was so in love with him, but was beginning to wonder if he would ever feel the same way. I talked with God about if I had actually heard the Spirit right or if I had misunderstood. 

A week later we were engaged and in September we will have been married for 28 years. 

I don't believe in soulmates because it has the connotation to me that there is not a choice (and understand that you feel differently), but he has my whole heart and I have his.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Rain

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

I felt some very strong promptings when I was pursuing my now wife.  I had a strong feeling I needed to propose to her.  We met at BYU, dated, got serious, and at the end of the semester (she was returning to her home in Washington State, and I was off to some military training), I asked her to think about the prospect.  Later that summer, I flew up to Washington to spend a few days with her and to meet her family.  I proposed on the first night, and she burst into tears.  So I withdrew it and asked that she continue to think about it over the remainder of the summer and the upcoming semester.  We then spent several days having a blast with her family, going to La Push, playing games, watching movies, making cookies, visiting Seattle, etc.  Near the end of my visit she took me aside and told me that I could re-ask her my previous question.  On my last day there we took a ferry ride over to Seattle, and I proposed to her as we crossed Puget Sound.  She said yes.

We hit our 23rd anniversary this December.  It has been a wonderful experience to be married to her, and I love her a lot.  So I think the things I learned were:

1. I kept my "promptings" to myself (until after we were married, anyway).  They were for me, not for her.

2. I had to trust my wife to make her own decision.  I was really, really hoping she would say yes, but it had to be her decision to make.

3. The Spirit played a strong role in each of our decision-making processes, but it did not override our agency.  For me, going along with what the Spirit wanted me to do was easy-peasy (if you knew my wife, you would understand why).  My wife was a bit nervous about getting married (hence the bursting-into-tears thing), but she also felt prompted by the Spirit, and eventually followed it.

4. I had to have some patience for the above process to work.  I also had to keep open the possibility that she could have said no.  I needed to be in a place where I could accept and respect such a decision.  I think I was.  In fact, my wife later told me that my staying even-keeled and calm in response to her bursting-into-tears thing ended up being a significant assurance for her that she could marry me.

In short, the principles laid out in D&C 121 (cited above) are not limited to the specific exercise of priesthood authority.  My wife's approach to me is aptly summarized as being motivated "by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; by kindness," and so on.  She is a wonderful person, and I am very fortunate to have her in my life.

Thanks,

-Smac

I am astounded! 1-4 were my exact spiritual experiences with Sister Gui! Except for a few minor details...me driving to Washington instead of flying during summer break, Ocean Shores instead of LaPush, staying for 3 weeks instead of one (my mom was furious with me), we became engaged in October back at BYU because she was waiting for a missionary and wanted to be sure, 48th anniversary...I could have written this! Must be something about those lovely Washington ladies. Tacoma by any chance? Thanks for sharing this. 

Edited July 25, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I have shared this before but my favorite use of this was a guy claiming that by revelation he knew that this girl (friend of mine) had promised to marry him in premortality.

Her response: “Well, I am not making that mistake twice.”

Hey, I said that already! Something Gerald Lund said in a talk to youth on personal revelation.  Is this same young lady do you think?  Or is it a nice story that has taken on a life of its own?