Cooperation in Polygynous Households

[Teancum]

16 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Then who is beaming this revelation into my brain? Aliens? CIA?

No. Its your own brain.  

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

But the question remains about who really knows what God's will is or isn't or whether or not God is there.

Who really knows anything with absolute certainty?  It's all a matter of faith.

[Teancum]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

Who really knows anything with absolute certainty?  It's all a matter of faith.

Faith is always used an an excuse for lack of evidence, reason or critical thinking.

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

No. Its your own brain.  

I have wondered what the history is like with respect to humans having this concept that the thoughts that occurs to them are coming from an external/outside source instead of inside their own head.  It seems somewhat odd to me, perhaps its just part of how our brains have evolved, and the different hemispheres of the brain that seemingly have different agendas and ways of thinking and perceiving experience. 

Humans are pretty interesting creatures.  We think its quaint but a perfectly normal delusion when young children have imaginary friends, but when an adult thinks that they are speaking deity, thats completely normal and reasonable for a large portion of the population.  

[pogi]

On 3/28/2019 at 5:04 PM, Teancum said:

Faith is always used an an excuse for lack of evidence, reason or critical thinking.

Whereas reason and critical thinking are always used as excuses for lack of faith.

I think one would do well to not dismiss/neglect either dimension of learning.

let me be clear that my faith does not come with lack of evidence - Alma 32.  

I understand that science is not likely to point one to God.  Science is useful but perhaps it is limited in what can be known.  Science addresses evidence that can be collectively studied, but science is limited and blind to personal and subjective experience and evidence.

Edited April 1, 2019 by pogi

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

No. Its your own brain.  

Then I am clearly a supernatural being. Nice!

[Jean-Luc Picard]

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I have wondered what the history is like with respect to humans having this concept that the thoughts that occurs to them are coming from an external/outside source instead of inside their own head.  It seems somewhat odd to me, perhaps its just part of how our brains have evolved, and the different hemispheres of the brain that seemingly have different agendas and ways of thinking and perceiving experience. 

Humans are pretty interesting creatures.  We think its quaint but a perfectly normal delusion when young children have imaginary friends, but when an adult thinks that they are speaking deity, thats completely normal and reasonable for a large portion of the population.  

I often have existential crisis, and think "humans are so weird."

I have to agree with your logic. 

Maybe it was easier to think an outside entity influenced you, especially if you do something terrible to someone else in your tribe (for which we lived in for hundreds of thousands of years).

"I had to kill brother, God/voices/spirit made me do it...."

I think I have read this story somewhere, it involved a "god" of sorts

[hope_for_things]

10 hours ago, Jean-Luc Picard said:

I often have existential crisis, and think "humans are so weird."

I have to agree with your logic. 

Maybe it was easier to think an outside entity influenced you, especially if you do something terrible to someone else in your tribe (for which we lived in for hundreds of thousands of years).

"I had to kill brother, God/voices/spirit made me do it...."

I think I have read this story somewhere, it involved a "god" of sorts

I think another piece of this is the way we humans have evolved to be extremely adept pattern seekers.  We find patterns in all kinds of random data and we frequently see events that can be easily explained as statistical coincidence instead as having significant cosmic meaning for our lives.  

I've been trying to become more aware of the ways that I let my emotions become too involved in events in my life.  Not in a Mr. Spock kind of way, attempting to eliminate emotion and be completely rational, as beauty & love are the components of life that make it really worth living.  But instead, I'm trying to examine how I can get attached to an idea based on the circumstances around who and where I learned that idea, rather than on the actual strength or weakness of the idea itself.  Do I make decisions based on my intuition or am I making decisions based on the strength of the argument.  Its been quite interesting to think about and to recognize just how often I let irrational thinking drive my decision making.  The whole elephant and the rider analogy that Jonathan Haight uses continues to be a very salient metaphor for typical human reasoning.  

[JLHPROF]

16 hours ago, Teancum said:

Faith is always used an an excuse for lack of evidence, reason or critical thinking.

No, man has the God given ability to reason and think critically yet almost all men frequently do this and still draw the wrong conclusions.

That's why God asks us repeatedly in scripture to reason with him rather than each other.

[JulieM]

20 hours ago, ALarson said:

Oh...ok!  JLHPROF (since you are one my favorite posters on this board   )

Who is the physical father of the first child born to one of Adam's (and Eve's) daughters?

Who is the physical mother of the first child born to one of Adam's (and Eve's) sons?

JLHPROF?  I’m interested in your answer here!

Or USU78’s thoughts (he seems to agree with your post?).

@JLHPROF

@USU78

Edited March 29, 2019 by JulieM

[Jean-Luc Picard]

On 3/28/2019 at 5:04 PM, Teancum said:

Faith is always used an an excuse for lack of evidence, reason or critical thinking.

I do find people pull out the faith argument when in a bind. But I think a balanced approach is best. Sometimes the numbers and evidence we are looking at are just patterns. Sometimes we get it wrong, just like faith.

I try to have faith/give the benefit of the doubt to most people as the first approach. If I am let down, now I can use my best reasoning to determine if I have faith in them again.

Maybe that is why I now have less faith than ever. My heathen brain now seeks reason first. Makes me a little sad sometimes. I liked a more "faithful" Jean-Luc

[nuclearfuels]

On 3/26/2019 at 2:42 PM, juliann said:

Of course not. Women can always be controlled somehow. It's a little harder now that we have legal and social rights, though. 

except the right to choose a polygaous or polygynous marriage.

Must be becuase the gov't leaders wanT to empower you that they restrict your legal optioNS.

[nuclearfuels]

23 hours ago, Jean-Luc Picard said:

I do find people pull out the faith argument when in a bind. But I think a balanced approach is best. Sometimes the numbers and evidence we are looking at are just patterns. Sometimes we get it wrong, just like faith.

I try to have faith/give the benefit of the doubt to most people as the first approach. If I am let down, now I can use my best reasoning to determine if I have faith in them again.

Maybe that is why I now have less faith than ever. My heathen brain now seeks reason first. Makes me a little sad sometimes. I liked a more "faithful" Jean-Luc

and sometimes we assume or even see patterns when nOne exist.  kasparov wrote about this

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

except the right to choose a polygaous or polygynous marriage.

Must be becuase the gov't leaders wanT to empower you that they restrict your legal optioNS.

Same right as men though.  If we are being controlled in such a fashion, it is consistent across genders ...which has not always been so.

Edited March 31, 2019 by Calm

[MiserereNobis]

On 3/27/2019 at 10:45 PM, Thinking said:

Sometimes the hard road is just hard. One might find strength having traveled it, but being hard doesn't necessarily make a road the best road.

I like how Christ said, "my yoke is easy and my burden is light." Puritanism somehow forgot that (and that's it's ok to have feast days and party  )

[MiserereNobis]

On 3/28/2019 at 5:15 PM, hope_for_things said:

I have wondered what the history is like with respect to humans having this concept that the thoughts that occurs to them are coming from an external/outside source instead of inside their own head.  It seems somewhat odd to me, perhaps its just part of how our brains have evolved, and the different hemispheres of the brain that seemingly have different agendas and ways of thinking and perceiving experience. 

Humans are pretty interesting creatures.  We think its quaint but a perfectly normal delusion when young children have imaginary friends, but when an adult thinks that they are speaking deity, thats completely normal and reasonable for a large portion of the population.  

Long ago, back in my psychedelic days, a friend and I ate some mushrooms. He went into the kitchen while I sat on the back deck. After quite some time, he came to me with a notebook. His preface was, "I know this sounds crazy and we're tripping but this is totally true." He told me that an alien, space alien, consciousness had linked with his mind and he would write down questions in the notebook and then the alien consciousness would have him write down the answers. He had pages of it.

We've lost contact, but I think he could have turned out to be a rather efficient cult leader  

[hope_for_things]

49 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Long ago, back in my psychedelic days, a friend and I ate some mushrooms. He went into the kitchen while I sat on the back deck. After quite some time, he came to me with a notebook. His preface was, "I know this sounds crazy and we're tripping but this is totally true." He told me that an alien, space alien, consciousness had linked with his mind and he would write down questions in the notebook and then the alien consciousness would have him write down the answers. He had pages of it.

We've lost contact, but I think he could have turned out to be a rather efficient cult leader  

Weird for sure.  I've never experimented with psychedelics, and I don't plan on it.  From a neuroscience perspective there are some similarities from what they see people experience using these substances and other mystical religious experiences.  I also think the split brain experiments have yielded some interesting results about the different motivations and desires of the two hemispheres.  I think there may be genetic components involved with people having spiritual experiences, as well as some environmental influences, and I've wondered if Joseph's early trauma with his leg operation may have had some lasting influence on his mind.  

Its fascinating stuff. 

[Storm Rider]

On 3/28/2019 at 7:04 PM, Teancum said:

Faith is always used an an excuse for lack of evidence, reason or critical thinking.

And yet, you still have not answered how any you, or anyone else, know anything with certainty?  You denigrate faith and provide nothing to answer the question. 

[Teancum]

59 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

And yet, you still have not answered how any you, or anyone else, know anything with certainty?  You denigrate faith and provide nothing to answer the question. 

I rely on critical thinking, reason and rational thought as well as the scientific method and a good dose of skepticism.  I also believe supernatural fantastical claims require extraordinary evidence to trust such claims. And I would also examine the trustworthiness of the one making the supernatural claim of divine directions or edict.  

Does that help?

Faith is belief without any of the above.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Teancum

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

I rely on critical thinking, reason and rational thought as well as the scientific method and a good dose of skepticism.  I also believe supernatural fantastical claims require extraordinary evidence to trust such claims. And I would also examine the trustworthiness of the one making the supernatural claim of divine directions or edict.  

Does that help?

Faith is belief without any of the above.

The deduction then is that you don't think anyone can ever arrive at a firm conclusion. Reason, rational thought, and the scientific method are not capable of arriving at certain knowledge. Those can only bring you to the point of "to the best of my knowledge". 

In my way of think, faith and reason are companions that must walk to together. I would suggest a book, Fides et Ratio, by John Paul II. I read it several years ago, but it remains one of the best treatises on the relationship between faith and reason  that I have read. 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

I rely on critical thinking, reason and rational thought as well as the scientific method and a good dose of skepticism.

All good and useful things.  

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

I also believe supernatural fantastical claims require extraordinary evidence to trust such claims. And I would also examine the trustworthiness of the one making the supernatural claim of divine directions or edict.  

I don't disagree - except to clarify  that I consider spiritual evidence as "extraordinary evidence", but also to clarify that Mormonism doesn't believe in the "supernatural". 

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Faith is belief without any of the above.

Are you suggesting that faith is nothing more than critical thinking, reason, and rational thoughts" as applied in the scientific method?  Is there no spiritual element to it?

[USU78]

4 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I like how Christ said, "my yoke is easy and my burden is light." Puritanism somehow forgot that (and that's it's ok to have feast days and party  )

And yet  ...  Abraham was compelled to sacrifice his son, Nephi was compelled to behead Laban and take his armor & sword, and the Master was compelled to carry His cross.

And He said:  

Quote

And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Appears more is up than partying down.

[Calm]

50 minutes ago, USU78 said:

And yet  ...  Abraham was compelled to sacrifice his son, Nephi was compelled to behead Laban and take his armor & sword, and the Master was compelled to carry His cross.

And He said:  

Appears more is up than partying down.

And then there is that whole "hate" thing, which appears to contradict one of the Ten Commandments:

Quote

If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple

Of course, he also taught one should fully honor one's parents and love others, so most interpret this as one's highest loyalty is meant for God, then family and others.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Calm

[Gray]

On 3/27/2019 at 6:22 PM, Calm said:

Marrying first cousins happened outside of LDS communities.  Most, I suspect, don't think of that when thinking of "incest". 

And speaking in theory is very different than acting on that theory.  If he meant in an ideal society, with no inherent health or social domination issues, siblings marrying might not be an issue.

17 states fully allow first cousins to marry in the US.  2 more allow it with exceptions.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States_by_state

Sorry for the delay - I was out on vacation. I think on further reflection there isn't really a connection to be made with LDS polygamy and incest, OTHER than BY's bizarre statements on the topic. It's really more of an FLDS thing.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Gray said:

Sorry for the delay - I was out on vacation.

Hope you had fun.  Appreciate you coming back to the thread, I usually forget after a couple of days.

BY's comments...I wondered if he looked back on that and thought "I wonder why I decided to go down that rabbit trail".