pogi Posted March 26, 2019 Posted March 26, 2019 Just now, juliann said: Were you able to open this? I've tried everything and am stuck with the abstract. I had the same problem and posted the full PDF: https://www.unamur.be/en/eco/eeco/Seminars 2017-2018/Papers/Abigail Barr 4
juliann Posted March 26, 2019 Posted March 26, 2019 6 minutes ago, pogi said: I understand he is trying to compare it to Mormon polygamy, but that doesn't mean there is any merit in the comparison. I am pretty sure any anthropologist would see the limits in the comparison and would be careful to only apply the results to the target group studied. Any other extrapolation is is careless. I think the cultures are/were vastly different. These are economists. "Using a c.arefully designed series of public goods games, we compare, across monogamous and polygynous households, the willingness of husbands and wives to cooperate to maximize household gains." I am not sure it is a good idea to assume that different ethnic groups don't have the same human reactions. 3
Gray Posted March 26, 2019 Author Posted March 26, 2019 7 minutes ago, juliann said: Were you able to open this? I've tried everything and am stuck with the abstract. Pogi found the direct link: https://www.unamur.be/en/eco/eeco/Seminars 2017-2018/Papers/Abigail Barr
Gray Posted March 26, 2019 Author Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) 34 minutes ago, pogi said: Wealth isn't the only factor. You also have to account for culture, religion, cultural views of money and money management, social practices and attitudes, the roles of men/women and husbands/wives in those cultures, etc. I am sure that polygamy in a poor, Nigerian, Muslim family is lived very differently than we see on the show "Sister Wives" for example. This is true with any study, you can't extrapolate results from one culture and expect it to apply to all. The study seems (on the face of it) to be designed to rule out factors like that. All else being equal, polygamy seems to lead to worse outcomes. Edited March 26, 2019 by Gray 1
clarkgoble Posted March 26, 2019 Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, juliann said: Were you able to open this? I've tried everything and am stuck with the abstract. I couldn't and key to the meaningfulness of the study is how large n is. If n < 300 and preferably much larger I wouldn't give it much weight. If n < 30 you can completely dismiss it. Edit: Got the study (thanks Pogi) and n = 456 for polygynous and 220 for monogamous so it's not a bad study. Edited March 26, 2019 by clarkgoble 1
Robert F. Smith Posted March 26, 2019 Posted March 26, 2019 2 hours ago, Gray said: https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/app.20170438 For your consideration. Another fruit with which we can evaluate the moral value of polygamy. Is this reflected in biblical stories of jealousy in polygyny? 2
pogi Posted March 26, 2019 Posted March 26, 2019 4 minutes ago, juliann said: I am not sure it is a good idea to assume that different ethnic groups don't have the same human reactions. I think it is very safe to say that different cultures/religions have different views of money, money management, family dynamics/relations and levels of cooperation, etc. Here is one cultural difference that might affect results of the study among Native Americans, for example: Quote Further findings of note are (a) the cultural belief that resources must be shared with all family members is seen as an obligation and often creates major resource demands https://search.proquest.com/openview/aa1bb59a5367c192937b24faa0e5d8ff/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=38873 Cultural differences in relation to money and family dynamics are vast and well studies. https://personal-money-management.utah.edu/blog/posts/2017/cultural_diversity.php http://www.futureofbusinessandtech.com/news/how-does-culture-affect-financial-literacy https://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/how-culture-influences-our-financial-decisions It is bad practice in science to isolate one variable and extrapolate study results based on that single isolated variable without considering all variables at play.
pogi Posted March 26, 2019 Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Gray said: The study seems (on the face of it) to be designed to rule out factors like that. All else being equal, polygamy seems to lead to worse outcomes. Where does the study rule out factors like that? Where does it guarantee that the results can be extrapolated in different cultural settings? It clearly doesn't. It specifically stated that they did not see the same problems within certain family dynamics in polygamous marriages. So, how can you rule out that cultural family dynamics are not at play? Edited March 26, 2019 by pogi
member10_1 Posted March 26, 2019 Posted March 26, 2019 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: Sometimes it is in the furnace of afflictions that people most grow (or break). I do not think anyone would deny that polygamy is much more difficult to live righteously then monogamy but that is true of a lot of life. Sometimes the hard road is the best road. Let’s assume you were meeting with a woman who was in a polygamous relationship but was having a very difficult time with it. How would you go about explaining polygamy as being the “best road”? Best in what way?
Gray Posted March 26, 2019 Author Posted March 26, 2019 12 minutes ago, pogi said: Where does the study rule out factors like that? Where does it guarantee that the results can be extrapolated in different cultural settings? It rules out selection factors at least (as in people with certain traits being selected into polygamy). So differences shouldn't have anything to do with culture. If anything, local cultural forces would make monogamists and polygamists more similar. But they're still different. 12 minutes ago, pogi said: It clearly doesn't. It specifically stated that they did not see the same problems within certain family dynamics in polygamous marriages. I'm not sure what this means, can you clarify? 12 minutes ago, pogi said: So, how can you rule out that cultural family dynamics are not at play? At play how? What are you suggesting?
Glenn101 Posted March 26, 2019 Posted March 26, 2019 1 hour ago, Gray said: Polygamy is kind of the opposite of celibacy, just as drunkenness is the opposite of sobriety. Drunkenness is "hard" in the sense that it's hard to behave yourself when drunk. I was just following the Nehor's argument and applying it to a different topic. I understood what you were trying to do. I just do not think your analogy was on target. The Nehor was, if I understand him correctly, applying his argument towards people that had been commanded to practice polygamy and chose to take that difficult path in order to obey what they felt was a higher law. My analogy was to priests and nuns who take vows of celibacy, giving up romantic love, sex, and family in doing so, which I would imagine is a much harder road for most mortals. They do this to follow what they feel is a higher law. I do not think alcoholics feel they are choosing to live a higher law and taking a harder road to do so. Glenn 1
The Nehor Posted March 26, 2019 Posted March 26, 2019 2 hours ago, Gray said: Which is why everyone should live every day blind drunk. Sure, it's hard to behave responsibly like that, but sometimes the hard road is the best road. Finally.....someone talking sense! 1 hour ago, juliann said: Especially if you are a woman who takes the brunt of it, we are the most in need of growth! Not been my experience but I bow to your experience. 1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said: So are you going on the record that polygamy is the "best road"? Nope, suggesting it might be the best road for some. I admit I would probably complain if it were my “best road” but being single seems to be my “best road” and I complain a lot about that so maybe I am just a complainer. 1 hour ago, MustardSeed said: wait. Nehor is a champion for polygamy? Heaven forbid a true blue agrees with a gray on anything... but come on. Polygamy sucks because I’m a woman and I know things. Am I the true blue or the gray? Not a champion for it although the adolescent in me would not mind a nubile harem. The adult me knows a little better. I just acknowledge that life is awful and sometimes God puts us in or even asks us to go into torturous circumstances. I think of Jesus’s last conversation with Peter at the end of the 40 day ministry where John gets to live forever and Peter is told to go preach, be persecuted, and then executed by slow torture. Life is awful and then you die and then hopefully it gets better. 1
The Nehor Posted March 26, 2019 Posted March 26, 2019 7 minutes ago, member10_1 said: Let’s assume you were meeting with a woman who was in a polygamous relationship but was having a very difficult time with it. How would you go about explaining polygamy as being the “best road”? Best in what way? I would use the Holy Ghost to know what to say. Starting point would have to be that it is like Joseph Smith at Liberty Jail and coming out stronger on the other end.
ALarson Posted March 26, 2019 Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I just acknowledge that life is awful and sometimes God puts us in or even asks us to go into torturous circumstances. I do not believe that polygamy came from God. Why would He command something that would end up being "torturous circumstances" for many involved (the women, the men or the children)? IMO, it came from man and was presented as being God's will. I know some may disagree. But I especially do not believe that God would have commanded Joseph to do anything that would have caused him to have to be dishonest, and betray and hurt his wife in order to accomplish it. Edited March 26, 2019 by ALarson 4
member10_1 Posted March 26, 2019 Posted March 26, 2019 3 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I would use the Holy Ghost to know what to say. Starting point would have to be that it is like Joseph Smith at Liberty Jail and coming out stronger on the other end. You can’t think of specific reasons as to why polygamy would be the best path but you’re comfortable stating that it was?
pogi Posted March 26, 2019 Posted March 26, 2019 23 minutes ago, member10_1 said: Let’s assume you were meeting with a woman who was in a polygamous relationship but was having a very difficult time with it. How would you go about explaining polygamy as being the “best road”? Best in what way? I would suggest that polygamy is the exception to the rule, and is probably not the best road for most. 3
pogi Posted March 26, 2019 Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Gray said: I'm not sure what this means, can you clarify? This is in relation to the quote I commented on earlier: Quote Finally, our findings suggest that members of polygynous households contribute less than their monogamous counterparts only when they believe that their spouses or co-wives deviate from full cooperation. Put another way, the lower level of cooperation in polygynous households is owing to greater reciprocity and not pure selfishness. This implies that cooperation can be increased by increasing the level of trust between spouses and co-wives In other words, in some cultures like Native American cultures, where cultural obligations are that money must be shared equally with all family members (see my previous post with link) we probably wouldn't see this problem as much. How does the Muslim religion and culture play into the relationship between sister wives vs Mormon sister wives and their husbands for example. Are families culturally more open or closed? How do they communicate regarding money and other issues? There are so many potential variables at play that without understanding all the variables, again it is reckless to extrapolate the results. Quote This implies that cooperation can be increased by increasing the level of trust between spouses and co-wives In other words, it is a problem not without a solution. So, no, polygamy is not inherently morally corrupt based on the results of this study. If anything, all we can conclude is that it can be more challenging - which no one denies. But with challenge, as Nehor points out, there are opportunities for growth and improved communication skills in developing trust between all involved. Difficult, yes. More likely to fail? Maybe. But risk is not inherently immoral. Without it, there can be no growth. Choosing Jesus's plan has inherent risk. It has built in challenges. There is no guarantee. And it is the ONLY plan that provides for growth... Edited March 26, 2019 by pogi
pogi Posted March 26, 2019 Posted March 26, 2019 32 minutes ago, ALarson said: Why would He command something that would end up being "torturous circumstances" for many involved... You mean like life? 1
JLHPROF Posted March 26, 2019 Posted March 26, 2019 Societal polygamy vs Faith based polygamy will have different results. When motivations are that different it becomes apples and oranges.
ALarson Posted March 26, 2019 Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, pogi said: You mean like life? Where are we commanded to have a life? 😛 Edited March 26, 2019 by ALarson
pogi Posted March 26, 2019 Posted March 26, 2019 4 minutes ago, ALarson said: Where are we commanded to have a life? 😛 Whether it was commanded, encouraged, or suggested, it is all the same - God wanted us all to participate in something "that would end up being "torturous circumstances" for many involved".
ALarson Posted March 26, 2019 Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, pogi said: Whether it was commanded, encouraged, or suggested, it is all the same - Not really.... If a flaming sword is drawn and you're threatened with destruction, I'd say that's more than just a suggestion! Edited March 26, 2019 by ALarson
Calm Posted March 26, 2019 Posted March 26, 2019 3 hours ago, Gray said: Polygamy is kind of the opposite of celibacy, From the point of view of men perhaps viewing polygyny. Women probably not so much, especially if an unfavoured wife. 1
pogi Posted March 26, 2019 Posted March 26, 2019 8 minutes ago, ALarson said: Not really.... If a flaming sword is drawn and you're threatened with destruction, I'd say that's more than just a suggestion! I think you missed my point about God's will.
ALarson Posted March 26, 2019 Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, pogi said: I think you missed my point about God's will. I don't believe that living polygamy is God's will. There was too much hurt, betrayal, lies and deception involved with much of how it was lived in the early days of the church, for me to ever believe it was God's will. I know the faithful saints tried to obey and live it....and many made it work as best as they possibly could, but that does not mean it was God's will. That's my belief and my opinion. I believe it was a mistake and there was much suffering and pain because of it (and there still is even today). And, I'll add that the faithful sisters who lived it are my heroes and are barely mentioned by name much of the time. Edited March 26, 2019 by ALarson 2
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