Cooperation in Polygynous Households

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Lack of choice of representation of one's demographic in creating laws hugely impacts the life of individuals or so many would assume (remember "no taxation without representation!")

This ignore the fear of the law on choice...he can abuse her without fear of consequence.  Can the same be said if she poisons him?  Which one is more likely to exercise that choice, the one who will get hung if caught or the one whose community's reaction at most is getting looked down on by neighbours?

Fear of consequences from whom? From the legal system? Yes From his spouse? No  From society? I don't think so. I don't think an individual is free from consequences from their actions. At some point, it all comes back on you. 

I think that legal consequences do have an impact, but it certainly does not prevent individuals from breaking the law. If your name is Smollett then it certainly does not matter evidently. 

Again, my main point was two-fold - don't speak in absolutes and it remains an issue of degrees. 

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Lack of choice of representation of one's demographic in creating laws hugely impacts the life of individuals or so many would assume (remember "no taxation without representation!")

This ignore the fear of the law on choice...he can abuse her without fear of consequence.  Can the same be said if she poisons him?  Which one is more likely to exercise that choice, the one who will get hung if caught or the one whose community's reaction at most is getting looked down on by neighbours?

If that were so, why wouldn't we see 100% voting in populations around the world? I am certain there are some individuals that have never voted and feel zero impact of their choice. 

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

If that were so, why wouldn't we see 100% voting in populations around the world? I am certain there are some individuals that have never voted and feel zero impact of their choice. 

There are a lot of reasons that people might not vote. Voter intimidation, a belief that your vote won't matter anyway, not liking any of the options, no way to get to polling stations, etc. 

[CV75]

On 3/26/2019 at 1:16 PM, Gray said:

https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/app.20170438

For your consideration. Another fruit with which we can evaluate the moral value of polygamy.

I can't read the article to assess this, but it seems that a comparison with adherents to the Restored Gospel up to the Manifesto would be apples and oranges. I'm assuming the sample households do not include that particular cohort and that "cooperation" and "maximizing household gains" mean different things to and are valued differently by (whether spiritually and/or temporally) various cohorts in different times and places and their observers. I would say like any institution, sometimes marriage works and sometimes it doesn't, and the terms and aims of the arrangement and the individuals involved make all the difference.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

I submit that the abuses occurring within the FLDS are an excellent example of the types of abuses that creep into the system almost every single time it is institutionalized.  Number of wives as a symbol of power.  Younger and younger wives.  Young men ousted as competition. Just naming a fee examples.

It is illegal though.  That is a huge difference in culture where legal or even seen as admirable.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Transactional relationships have no place in the family.

Ideally in our culture, sure.  Not sure if that applies to every culture though.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

If that were so, why wouldn't we see 100% voting in populations around the world? I am certain there are some individuals that have never voted and feel zero impact of their choice. 

Voting rights was shorthand by me for demographic representation in government.  Men being the only ones making laws is a definite level of control over women, whether or not they choose to exercise it.

There is also perception and there is reality.  An abused spouse may imagine their spouse is not attempting to control them, but they are.  

If there is no impact from lack of representation in government, does that mean America was wrong to view that as one of the reasons to revolt in your view.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

Fear of consequences from whom? From the legal system? Yes From his spouse? No  From society? I don't think so. I don't think an individual is free from consequences from their actions. At some point, it all comes back on you. 

I think that legal consequences do have an impact, but it certainly does not prevent individuals from breaking the law. If your name is Smollett then it certainly does not matter evidently. 

Again, my main point was two-fold - don't speak in absolutes and it remains an issue of degrees. 

I am not speaking in absolutes, I am speaking about trends and cultural influences.  You assumed absolutes contrary to what I stated:

"but in general women had fewer options to choose if their husband was the controlling type"

And again in a later post:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/71694-cooperation-in-polygynous-households/?do=findComment&comment=1209894843

 

Edited March 27, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Brigham Young advocated for incest at least in theory, as I'm sure you're aware. If not I'll provide a direct quote

In my own family history, on the polygamist LDS branch, there is incest in the form of marrying first cousins. I can't however provide a link to that, as it's my family history (diary entries)

 

Marrying first cousins happened outside of LDS communities.  Most, I suspect, don't think of that when thinking of "incest". 

And speaking in theory is very different than acting on that theory.  If he meant in an ideal society, with no inherent health or social domination issues, siblings marrying might not be an issue.

17 states fully allow first cousins to marry in the US.  2 more allow it with exceptions.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States_by_state

Edited March 27, 2019 by Calm

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don't know that it's idiotic.  It seems to be supported by research (not that hardships are wonderful but that they are extremely useful in our emotional and mental development).  I attended a conference last night on how to help create women leaders and one of the points that was made (by Dr. Susan Madsen, who has studied and researched it) was that having challenges and difficulties in early life was one of the factors that helped a woman become a leader (such as in politics or the president of a large college or university, etc.).  The women that struggled most later in life with achieving their goals, feeling like they were living a life of purpose, and with imposter syndrome were most often the women who's parents had sheltered them from negative experiences, or solved the negative experiences that happened for them.  

These were the women that struggled less with anxiety and had higher self esteem as well.  

So should we seek out artificiality created hardships?

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

Yes, we should intentionally seek hard roads.  Very few good things that we enjoy in life came about because it was easy.  Life is hard.  Doing hard things is good for us emotionally, physically, and spiritually.  It builds character and self-esteem.  It leads to accomplishment and growth.  Our economy would literally collapse if people did not do hard things in business.  Entrepreneurship is not easy.  School is hard.  Marriage is hard.  Work is hard. Exercise is hard. Eating right is hard. Overcoming addiction is hard. Being a parent is hard.  Being patient is hard.  Consistency can be hard... 

Doing hard things sharpens our minds, strengthens our backs, lifts our spirits, and keeps us young and alive.  I have worked many years with geriatric patients.  The ones who thrive emotionally, spiritually, and physically, keep doing hard things in their life.  The alternative is to seek instant gratification - avoid relationships because they are hard and instead indulge in television and escapism.  It is really easy to numb out and avoid difficulties in life - but ultimately we will lose our souls.   

What you list is the normal part of life. I get that.

 

But artificially imposed hardships, like the apologist of LDS polygamy want to argue it as a test, hardship, challenge...not so much.

 

I don't think you would intentionally impose hardships on you children outside of the normal things in life that we do just to make them grow.

As an amateur athlete I understand in training the self imposed hardship of adding high intensity interval work in.  That is my personal choice. But I don't impose such things on a group of followers and god's will or test.  This is the difference.

[USU78]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

CFR please

Niece marriages were not unknown. I have a great-great-grandfather marry his brother's daughters during the time Johnston's Army was encamped in Evanston.

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

God and his prophets and apostles sometimes say it is. No, we should not seek out hard roads but should endure well those we are given either by command or circumstance.

I do not consider the commandments of God to be “artificial”.

What you call the commandments of God are often the artificial impositions on you from someone claiming to speak for God, but is not.

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, Teancum said:

So should we seek out artificiality created hardships?

Hardships for hardship sake, imo, definitely not.  Put the energy and resources into presexisting hardships like helping out those in need.  Don't create a need just to have a need.  I think there are plenty of mountains to climb already, no one needs to make their own.

Hardship that leads to accomplishment...like prepping for a marathon, sure, why not?  Building an actual mountain for a theme park, say...seems like lots of people think that was worth it, though it could have been skipped as far .as I am concerned (both times on the Matterhorn---at 7 iirc and then 17---at Disneyland, did not enjoy)

Edited March 27, 2019 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

Why? Who says the hard road is best? If that is the case should we intentionally seek hard roads? 

I understand that we can learn from challenges but its an idiotic mentality to think hardships are a wonderful thing especially when they are artificially imposed on us, sort of like Mormon Polygamy was.

Lecture on Faith Six

"Let us here observe, that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation; for from the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things: it was through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life; and it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things, that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God. When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has, for the truth's sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice, because he seeks to do his will, he does know most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice and offering, and that he has not nor will not seek his face in vain. Under these circumstances, then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life."

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Niece marriages were not unknown. I have a great-great-grandfather marry his brother's daughters during the time Johnston's Army was encamped in Evanston.

Apparently not illegal currently in Australia and Canada, though not common in most English speaking countries.  Some other cultures it is even common according to wiki, though it doesn't list any save an Amazonian culture, so not sure if that claim is accurate.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avunculate_marriage

Edited March 28, 2019 by Calm

[USU78]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

Apparently not illegal currently in Australia and Canada, though not common in most English speaking countries.  Some other cultures it is even common according to wiki, though it doesn't list any save an Amazonian culture, so not sure if that claim is accurate.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avunculate_marriage

I'm neither enthused nor disgusted by cousin or niece marriages. It's a meh issue.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

So should we seek out artificiality created hardships?

I don’t know. What is preparing to run the Boston Marathon, for example, but someone seeking out an artificially created hardship because they believe it will benefit them in some way.

Are they idiots for seeking out that hardship?  It probably depends on who you ask. 

Edited March 28, 2019 by bluebell

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I'm neither enthused nor disgusted by cousin or niece marriages. It's a meh issue.

As long as no genetic health issues so that you are setting your kids up and there are no power dynamics involved, same here.

[USU78]

30 minutes ago, Calm said:

As long as no genetic health issues so that you are setting your kids up and there are no power dynamics involved, same here.

I have grandchildren, and it was my great-great-grandparents' generation that engaged in it ever so slightly. Why should that concern anybody today?

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I have grandchildren, and it was my great-great-grandparents' generation that engaged in it ever so slightly. Why should that concern anybody today?

I don't think that was gray's point...judging early Saints' relationships, but rather he was making the argument that polygamy might lead to incest.  Justification was then the presence of first cousin marriages (but he did not demonstrate this was at a higher rate than similar communities that lacked polygamy) and BY's speculation about it (which may have been a pet hobby of Brigham without having a  general impact on the community). 

Gray:

Quote

Incest: Is it inevitable? Perhaps - it was a feature of early LDS polygamy as well as FLDS polygamy. Probably a problem with lack of eligible women again.

I had read it as him claiming fathers were abusing daughters and brothers sisters more because that is how I interpret incest with women as victims as implied by his "lack of eligible women".  That is why I CFRed him, but apparently not his claim.  I would choose "inbreeding" I think if I understand him correctly.  If that is his claim, I would like to see evidence of that as well.  It doesn't seem like that cimmunities were isolated enough for that to be a concern.

Edited March 28, 2019 by Calm

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

I'm neither enthused nor disgusted by cousin or niece marriages. It's a meh issue.

Really?  It's really creepy (for me)....the thought of marrying my brother's daughter.....is just very creepy and wrong, IMO.  

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

What you list is the normal part of life. I get that.

 

But artificially imposed hardships, like the apologist of LDS polygamy want to argue it as a test, hardship, challenge...not so much.

 

I don't think you would intentionally impose hardships on you children outside of the normal things in life that we do just to make them grow.

As an amateur athlete I understand in training the self imposed hardship of adding high intensity interval work in.  That is my personal choice. But I don't impose such things on a group of followers and god's will or test.  This is the difference.

I don't consider God's will and command to be "artificially imposed hardships".  I think that obedience to God's will is always for our ultimate good and growth.  That is probably something that we are just going to have to agree to disagree on because I absolutely will encourage my children to obey the Lord in all things as they seek a relationship with him and heed his voice in their lives. 

I don't think we will agree on what is considered "normal things" in life.  For me, meditation, prayer, sacrifice for the Lord, tithing, etc are "normal things" that help us grow, you will likely view many of them as "artificially imposed hardships."  These disciplines may not be "normal" to the world, but I don't want what is normal for the world.  I want to live in an extraordinary way and find extraordinary peace and happiness. I plan on teaching my children to meditate, to pray, to sacrifice in paying a tithing, to put God's will above their own, to love other's even when it is hard and the rest of the world might give up.  I absolutely will encourage my children to pursue hardships outside of the "normal things in life (according to the world)".  I want them to know what can't be known any other way. 

[USU78]

2 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Really?  It's really creepy (for me)....the thought of marrying my brother's daughter.....is just very creepy and wrong, IMO.  

Creepy? Perhaps. My great-great-grandmother told my aunts, in her Lancashire accent: "Aye, I married me uncle, but he always took care of me."

In her great age she didn't seem particularly creeped out by her own life. Who are you or I to tell her she was wrong and icky?

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Really?  It's really creepy (for me)....the thought of marrying my brother's daughter.....is just very creepy and wrong, IMO.  

I think that would depend on age differences.  There are uncles I know who are younger than their nieces,  

My biggest ew factor is knowing someone as a child when adult and then marrying them later on.  Even if they don't marry until adulthood for both, the context is there.  If the older one didn't know the younger till adulthood, ew factor isn't there if power dynamics are balanced more or less.

This could be due to certain sci-fi/fantasy I read as a teen and young adult as well as a few gothic romances who did the young girl vowing to marry brooding guardian when older trope.  Gag me.  May be why gothic romances phrased out pretty quickly for me...that and all the heavy breathing some writers put into their chaste sex scenes.  Oh and let's not forget falling in love with their drunken rapists (modern storytelling too, Luke and Laura anyone?)

Edited March 28, 2019 by Calm