Bill Reel Invited to Disciplinary Council

[flameburns623]

I asked the following on Bill's FB page. Feel free to offer your own answers:

I am sorry this is happening.  It isn't unexpected.  

So: why not the Community of Christ/former RLDS? Why not Reform Judaism? Why not the Unitarian Universalists or the Ethical Society?

I've spent the whole night listening to David Bokovoy's interview by John Dehlin and want to ask him the same. I have wanted to ask Lindsay Hansen Park the same. Why is it "the SLC Mormon  Church or Bust!"?

My Dad was a sales manager in a company which obliged him to uproot us every seven to nine months.  

I lived in some wonderful communities. Was embraced by some, rejected and bullied by some, made a few close friends,  only to move again and do the process all over again.  

Dad passed when I was a teen and my Mom and brothers settled for about six years in the town that happened to have been my birthplace. 

This became my "hometown", and I learned a bit of what it neans to have a stable "tribe", with extended family peppered everywhere. With strengths and flaws and weaknesses and times of joy. 

But I had already learned that there are always OTHER potential communities, if one's current community becomes unliveable. 

Why is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints the only conceivable option? Is it really better than normlessness, than the anomie, of having NO community after being part of one for so many years?

Bill, you're in my sincerest prayers.

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

And why should I take his word for it?

Oh brother.  Don’t.  I don’t care.  I was answering a question.  If you care, listen to his interview and decide for yourself. 

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

In what scenario would being right with God put you at odds with His Church?

I think there could be circumstances under which an individual is improperly disciplined, which would put them at odds with the church, but not necessarily with God. 

[Teancum]

On 11/15/2018 at 2:38 PM, cinepro said:

I suspect this will not shock many people, but Bill Reel (aka dbmormon) has received an invitation to his execution.

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2018/11/bill-reel-disciplinary-court-is-imminent/

 

 

I guess it's the same conversation we have whenever something like this happens (Dehlin, Sam Young, Kate Kelly), but should there be a place in the church (or, more accurately, on the membership rolls) for people who have widely divergent points of view on things like the historicity of the Book of Mormon, the supernatural abilities of the current leadership, or even the existence of God and His involvement in world events over the past 6,000 years?

Asking for a friend.

 

Apparently the answer to your question is no, if you are public and vocal about it. If you are quiet and shut your mouth then the answer is yes.

 

Also what the heck is this confidentiality agreement that must be signed on condition of attendance. I guess I get the no recording but to try to bind someone to saying nothing publicly about their own council is ludicrous. My guess is it is not binding either. What is the Church going to do?  Sue someone, or kick them out...oh wait, they will have been kicked out.  The paranoia this demonstrates is quite funny.

[Teancum]

On 11/15/2018 at 2:55 PM, juliann said:

More to the point, should there be a place in the church for those who activity work to wound and even destroy it under the guise of being an insider. That is far, far different than " people who have widely divergent points of view on things like the historicity of the Book of Mormon, the supernatural abilities of the current leadership, or even the existence of God and His involvement in world events over the past 6,000 years?"

As to the former, I find it bizarre that anyone would think that was OK which is why the offenders work so hard to insist they are in the latter group. That doesn't mean there aren't over zealous leaders with too much power and/or that poor decisions have been made.

I don't know. I live among a lot of Catholics who are quite vocal in opposition of the Church and they don't get kicked out.

[SouthernMo]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

In what scenario would being right with God put you at odds with His Church?

The thing is, that’s not for me to judge. Each person is an individual, and has their own relationship with God.

Planning to murder my son might put me at odds with Handbook 1. But if I were Abraham, I would be right with God.

[SouthernMo]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

Funny, I would use humble, meek, and submissive to describe all of them

Perhaps. But, the operative point here is submissive to whom?

It seems you want Bill Reel to be submissive to the church leadership - the same leadership he vehemently disagrees with.

My point is, I don’t know whether he is being submissive to God. That’s for him to know.

[MiserereNobis]

18 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I don't know. I live among a lot of Catholics who are quite vocal in opposition of the Church and they don't get kicked out.

Yes, we are a little more lax about imposing excommunication, though there are situation where it automatically occurs without the bishop imposing it.

[Teancum]

On 11/15/2018 at 3:05 PM, smac97 said:

You mean a quiet meeting in a church building where men will get together, pray, have a discussion, and possibly remove Bill Reel's membership in the Church?  Which removal can be undone a year later if Bill Reel seeks it?  Which removal Bill Reel has essentially been courting for years?

This is an "execution?"

Melodramatic hyperbole, methinks.

"Something like this" being a member of the Church knowingly and deliberately and persistently engaging in conduct that appears to fall squarely within the parameters of "apostasy?"

Yes, there is a place.  There are all sorts of people in the Church who have "divergent points of view" on the doctrines and practices and history of the Church, who nevertheless remain in full fellowship.

Dehlin, Kelly, Young, Snuffer, Calderwoods, Runnells . . . they all courted excommunication.  Deliberately.  Intentionally.  They provoked discipline.  They demanded it.  So perhaps we can dispense with the Captain Renault routine.  Nothing surprising or shocking about these folks receiving the discipline they were looking to get (along with notoriety, adulation, 15 minutes of fame, etc.).

Nevertheless, I hope they have a change of heart and return.

Thanks,

-Smac

In the 21st century most modern  religious organizations can handle even open dissent and criticism without kicking their members out. 

 

The LDS Church is clearly not among these,

Please show me another Western Christian religion that behaves this way.

 

Thanks

[Teancum]

9 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Yes, we are a little more lax about imposing excommunication, though there are situation where it automatically occurs without the bishop imposing it.

Can you expand and explain?  Would the Catholic Church kick out a Bill Reel or a John Dehlin?

[Duncan]

17 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

The thing is, that’s not for me to judge. Each person is an individual, and has their own relationship with God.

Planning to murder my son might put me at odds with Handbook 1. But if I were Abraham, I would be right with God.

how do you know what values Abraham was operating under? he lived pre Mosaic law, for all we know murder was not like it is today, still hard to do of course because he was promised all these blessings and Isaac was kind of the thing to make it happen

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, ttribe said:

Completely over the line, Robert. 

I agree:  Bill Reel has gone completely over the line.

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

In the 21st century most modern  religious organizations can handle even open dissent and criticism without kicking their members out. 

 

The LDS Church is clearly not among these,

Please show me another Western Christian religion that behaves this way.

 

Thanks

There are other Church's that excommunicate, I know a lady in our Stake that was exed from her Church when she joined ours, what Church it was I don't know but she's English so maybe the Church of Stan Laurel? or the Holy Mick Jagger Church and Dance Studio?

[SouthernMo]

3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

how do you know what values Abraham was operating under? he lived pre Mosaic law, for all we know murder was not like it is today, still hard to do of course because he was promised all these blessings and Isaac was kind of the thing to make it happen

 Two things:

First - You are right - I don’t want to engage in presentism.  I don’t know Abraham’s values and the context.  Maybe murdering your own son was perfectly normal at the time.

Second - You are right - I shouldn’t judge Abraham because his life is in a different context than mine.  His ‘being right with God’ might not be the same as mine.

So, I say again: I am not going to condemn Bill Reel for testifying his beliefs.  I am not going to tell him to ‘get right with God’ because his life and relationship with deity is different than mine.

I will allow myself to be confused about his position and dubious about his words, and I don’t have to live or believe like he does.

 

[MiserereNobis]

34 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Can you expand and explain?  Would the Catholic Church kick out a Bill Reel or a John Dehlin?

I only know about them from what is said here -- I've never listened to them or researched them, so I'm not really able to make a comparison.

There are automatic excommunications in Catholicism that happen the moment the act occurs. These include things like getting an abortion, physically striking the Pope (gotta protect the Holy Father), ordaining a bishop without Papal approval, desecrating the Holy Eucharist, breaking the confessional seal, and some others.

Then there are excommunications that are declared by the bishop in authority (remember, bishops are like LDS stake presidents). The bishop, under canon law (our version of the handbook of instructions I suppose), can excommunicate someone for a variety of reasons, but the ones that would probably apply to this case are heresy, apostasy, or creating a schism. These are sins that are almost exclusively reserved to clergy, often groups of clergy that try to set up their own church, try to ordain women, etc. There might be examples of bloggers being excommunicated, but I've never heard of it. In fact, it is hard as a lay person to get a decree of excommunication from a bishop. Perhaps part of that is due to the size and culture of Catholicism. With 1.2 billion members, there are a lot of cultural Catholics (just try getting a seat at Easter and Christmas mass!). With so many Catholics, a lot of stuff is ignored.

Excommunication doesn't invalidate your baptism, like it does in Mormonism. It means that you are no longer able to receive any of the sacraments, except the sacrament of penance (confession). If you are a clergy, you cannot celebrate any of the sacraments. You cannot hold any office, job, or position. Excommunication, generally speaking, is lifted by the bishop in authority, though there are a few types of excommunication that can only be lifted by the Pope. There is no rebaptism -- lifting means that you are able to receive the sacraments again.

Also, you are not removed from membership rolls if you are excommunicated, because there is not a membership roll. There is a register that each parish keeps that marks when people receive sacraments like baptism, confirmation, marriage, and holy orders, but that is not centralized. So excommunication doesn't "kick you out" of the Catholic Church. We're the ultimate cult -- there's no way to leave us because Catholic baptism is permanent and indelible, muahahaha!

Edited November 17, 2018 by MiserereNobis

[Teancum]

48 minutes ago, Duncan said:

There are other Church's that excommunicate, I know a lady in our Stake that was exed from her Church when she joined ours, what Church it was I don't know but she's English so maybe the Church of Stan Laurel? or the Holy Mick Jagger Church and Dance Studio?

Please do provide more details on this.

[Avatar4321]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

In the 21st century most modern  religious organizations can handle even open dissent and criticism without kicking their members out. 

 

The LDS Church is clearly not among these,

Please show me another Western Christian religion that behaves this way.

 

Thanks

I suppose that’s because we are an ancient religion

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I agree:  Bill Reel has gone completely over the line.

I'm not defending Bill Reel.  I don't really give him any thought, actually. But, I do think it is very classless for you to openly question the mental health of the man like this. 

[Duncan]

41 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Please do provide more details on this.

well someone who is British comes from England or Scotland but she' English🧙‍♂️

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Funny, I would use humble, meek, and submissive to describe all of them

It is who they are submitting to that matters most, God or Man.

[Steve J]

I just read the letter he sent....TL:DR 

i am smarter than all of you. No one answered all my questions specifically  to my satisfaction. Read the CES letter and To know the  church is false. 10000000 problems that I specifically counted. I have  a podcast and everyone who isn’t a complete idiot(ex of complete idiots- anyone who believes in the truth claims of the church) knows me for my complete honesty, integrity, and 100% knowledge on church scholarship. Again,m your church is false and you don’t know that bc the church hid it from you and you’re too big of a sheep to know it.  This excommunication will be really hard on me since I Will be separated from my tribe of dumb lazy superstitious sheep that don’t know the 1000 things that prove the church truth claims false. Here is a link to the CES letter. 

 

(World I will post this everywhere and let everyone know down to the minute when I sent it to my SP) 

 

 

ps. - from Steve J- I have no issue with someone who reads the things he listed and learns more about the Church that comes to reject the foundational claims and mission of the church. However, I disagree when he then goes onto label anyone who doesn’t reach those same conclusions as either ignorant or deceitful.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2018 by Steve J

[smac97]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

In the 21st century most modern  religious organizations can handle even open dissent and criticism without kicking their members out. 

First, so can and do we.  Excommunication is, after all, a very rare form of discipline.

Second, "dissent and criticism" covers a fair spectrum of behavior, and only behavior at the extremity of it merits discipline.  I have been involved in dozens of disciplinary matters, not a one of which has resulted in an excommunication.

Third, the Church has a fairly clear mandate as to disciplinary matters:

• D&C 50:8-9 - "But the hypocrites shall be detected and shall be cut off, either in life or in death, even as I will; and wo unto them who are cut off from my church, for the same are overcome of the world. Wherefore, let every man beware lest he do that which is not in truth and righteousness before me."
• D&C 64:34-37 - "Behold, the Lord requireth the heart and a willing mind; and the willing and obedient shall eat the good of the land of Zion in these last days. And the rebellious shall be cut off out of the land of Zion, and shall be sent away, and shall not inherit the land. For, verily I say that the rebellious are not of the blood of Ephraim, wherefore they shall be plucked out. Behold, I, the Lord, have made my church in these last days like unto a judge sitting on a hill, or in a high place, to judge the nations."
• D&C 104:6-10 - "For I, the Lord, am not to be mocked in these things. And all this that the innocent among you may not be condemned with the unjust; and that the guilty among you may not escape; because I, the Lord, have promised unto you a crown of glory at my right hand. Therefore, inasmuch as you are found transgressors, you cannot escape my wrath in your lives. Inasmuch as ye are cut off for transgression, ye cannot escape the buffetings of Satan until the day of redemption. And I now give unto you power from this very hour, that if any man among you, of the order, is found a transgressor and repenteth not of the evil, that ye shall deliver him over unto the buffetings of Satan; and he shall not have power to bring evil upon you."
• D&C 63:60-64 - "Behold, I am Alpha and Omega, even Jesus Christ. Wherefore, let all men beware how they take my name in their lips. For behold, verily I say, that many there be who are under this condemnation, who use the name of the Lord, and use it in vain, having not authority. Wherefore, let the church repent of their sins, and I, the Lord, will own them; otherwise they shall be cut off. Remember that that which cometh from above is sacred, and must be spoken with care, and by constraint of the Spirit; and in this there is no condemnation, and ye receive the Spirit through prayer; wherefore, without this there remaineth condemnation."
• D&C 133:63 - "And upon them that hearken not to the voice of the Lord shall be fulfilled that which was written by the prophet Moses, that they should be cut off from among the people."
• D&C 85:11 - "And they who are of the High Priesthood, whose names are not found written in the book of the law, or that are found to have apostatized, or to have been cut off from the church, as well as the lesser priesthood, or the members, in that day shall not find an inheritance among the saints of the Most High."
• D&C 1:14 - "And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people."
• D&C 134:10 - "We believe that all religious societies have a right to deal with their members for disorderly conduct, according to the rules and regulations of such societies; provided that such dealings be for fellowship and good standing; but we do not believe that any religious society has authority to try men on the right of property or life, to take from them this world’s goods, or to put them in jeopardy of either life or limb, or to inflict any physical punishment upon them. They can only excommunicate them from their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship."
• Alma 1:24 - "The hearts of many were hardened, and their names were blotted out."
• 3 Ne. 18:31 - "If he repent not he shall not be numbered among my people."
• D&C 42:28 - "He that sinneth and repenteth not shall be cast out."
• D&C 41:5 - "He that receiveth my law and doeth it, the same is my disciple; and he that saith he receiveth it and doeth it not, the same is not my disciple, and shall be cast out from among you."
• Helaman 12:25 - "And I would that all men might be saved. But we read that in the great and last day there are some who shall be cast out, yea, who shall be cast off from the presence of the Lord."

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

The LDS Church is clearly not among these,

I think the Church is among these.  But even if not, I'm not that concerned.  We need to follow the mandates we have received, including the difficult ones.

As I have said before regarding people who have been excommunicated: "Look, I don't want them to leave the Church. I want them in it. I want everyone in it. But we are a community of faith. We cohere around faith. When we disregard apostasy we weaken our community."

Upholding the doctrines and mandates of the Church can be difficult.  But them's the breaks.  For bishops and stake presidents, being a judge in Israel is not supposed to be easy.  They are called upon to administer the Restored Gospel, both when doing so is easy and when it's hard.  

Christ Himself said and did things that were not well-received by the society around Him.  I'm quite okay with that.  I'm also quite okay with His servants doing the same thing.  I am of course interested in the reputation of the Church.  Our reputation affects our ability to fulfill various mandates from God, not the least of which is the Great Commission.  But preserving and ehnancing the Church's "reputation" cannot come at the expense of other mandates, such as upholding and proclaiming and teaching principles pertaining to marriage and the Law of Chastity.

Christ did not upend the moneychangers' tables in the temple because it was popular.  He did so because it was right.

Christ did not preach the "Bread of Life" sermon in John 6 because it was popular.  He did so because it was right.

Christ preached a gospel that was not going to be popular in the minds of an increasingly wicked world.  He knew that.  But He preached it anyway.  I think He knew beforehand that His message would alienate many people, including some otherwise good and decent people.  But He preached anyway.  I think He did so because those who were ready for His message needed to hear it, and needed to be gathered out of the World.  Perhaps this is why He said: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."  Perhaps this is why He also said (several times, actually😞 "Behold, I am God; give heed unto my word, which is quick and powerful, sharper than a two-edged sword, to the dividing asunder of both joints and marrow; therefore give heed unto my words."

In a way, I find it grimly satisfying that the Brethren are saying and doing some things that, in my mind, are A) unpopular in the eyes of the World, and B) plainly in accordance with revealed truths and based on revelation.  Our lot as Latter-day Saints is not to adhere to counsel from the Brethren because it is popular.  Our lot is to adhere to such counsel because it is right.  And when it is right and unpopular, well . . . that's what the Spirit is for.

Thanks,

-Smac

[rodheadlee]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

In the 21st century most modern  religious organizations can handle even open dissent and criticism without kicking their members out. 

 

The LDS Church is clearly not among these,

Please show me another Western Christian religion that behaves this way.

 

Thanks

Why does that matter?

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, Steve J said:

I just read the letter he sent....TL:DR 

i am smarter than all of you. No one answered all my questions specifically  to my satisfaction. Read the CES letter and To know the  church is false. 10000000 problems that I specifically counted. I have  a podcast and everyone who isn’t a complete idiot(ex of complete idiots- anyone who believes in the truth claims of the church) knows me for my complete honesty, integrity, and 100% knowledge on church scholarship. Again,m your church is false and you don’t know that bc the church hid it from you and you’re too big of a sheep to know it.  This excommunication will be really hard on me since I Will be separated from my tribe of dumb lazy superstitious sheep that don’t know the 1000 things that prove the church truth claims false. Here is a link to the CES letter. 

 

(World I will post this everywhere and let everyone know down to the minute when I sent it to my SP) 

 

 

he thinks too that SLC is behind all this, he's too big for an ordinary DC....😒

[Avatar4321]

15 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Why does that matter?

No one knows