Bill Reel Invited to Disciplinary Council

[cinepro]

I suspect this will not shock many people, but Bill Reel (aka dbmormon) has received an invitation to his execution.

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2018/11/bill-reel-disciplinary-court-is-imminent/

 

Quote

It has finally happened.  I received a disciplinary notice from my stake president.  Would those who feel any attachment to this podcast or to me, would you please send positive thoughts into the universe for my family and friends.  I always knew that full honesty and transparency and shining a light on unhealthiness and deception would eventually end with me being severed from my tribe.  But many around me expected better from the Church and are feeling hurt by this latest detail to transpire.

 

I guess it's the same conversation we have whenever something like this happens (Dehlin, Sam Young, Kate Kelly), but should there be a place in the church (or, more accurately, on the membership rolls) for people who have widely divergent points of view on things like the historicity of the Book of Mormon, the supernatural abilities of the current leadership, or even the existence of God and His involvement in world events over the past 6,000 years?

Asking for a friend.

 

[Exiled]

10 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I suspect this will not shock many people, but Bill Reel (aka dbmormon) has received an invitation to his execution.

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2018/11/bill-reel-disciplinary-court-is-imminent/

 

 

I guess it's the same conversation we have whenever something like this happens (Dehlin, Sam Young, Kate Kelly), but should there be a place in the church (or, more accurately, on the membership rolls) for people who have widely divergent points of view on things like the historicity of the Book of Mormon, the supernatural abilities of the current leadership, or even the existence of God and His involvement in world events over the past 6,000 years?

Asking for a friend.

 

I don't know if the big tent is possible given the emphasis on truth claims. Divergent views about the truth claims cannot be tolerated due how authority depends on them. So, public disagreement is met with a polite invitation to leave or be silent.

It's really not surprising.

[juliann]

More to the point, should there be a place in the church for those who activity work to wound and even destroy it under the guise of being an insider. That is far, far different than " people who have widely divergent points of view on things like the historicity of the Book of Mormon, the supernatural abilities of the current leadership, or even the existence of God and His involvement in world events over the past 6,000 years?"

As to the former, I find it bizarre that anyone would think that was OK which is why the offenders work so hard to insist they are in the latter group. That doesn't mean there aren't over zealous leaders with too much power and/or that poor decisions have been made.

[Steve J]

I have my issues with his public actions and declarations. I'll keep my comments limited.  

Edited November 15, 2018 by Steve J

[mapman]

Must be really serious if they are going to execute him.

[Steve J]

But i'm sure Jesus ( LDS Jesus, historical/secular Jesus, or "mythical Jesus"(as he loves to always talk about)) would definitely allow his apostles and followers to always scream and tell everyone that this Jesus guy is not really the Savior, that what he was doing was evil and hurting people, and that he purposefully was telling lies to deceive and hurt. Jesus would have been just cool with that and said the guy over there who doesn't believe in me is one of my disciples and we should let him stay so that everyone will know that he is a  Christian. 

Edited November 15, 2018 by Steve J

[juliann]

3 minutes ago, Exiled said:

  So, public disagreement is met with a polite invitation to leave or be silent.

 

Public disagreement? Hardly, unless we are to close our eyes to the internet. Disruptive rude behavior is met with the same response it gets in any other group that relies on civility. 

Every once in awhile I run into "both sides." There is always the victim proclaiming how badly they are treated for doing nothing wrong.....and then those in the ward who relate how this victim makes every lesson a shoot out. Just as we see with the men behaving badly in women's topics on this board who think they are victimized for merely speaking truth. The point is to shut down the thread/class/whatever. Not to relay information or opinions. 

[smac97]

On 11/15/2018 at 12:38 PM, cinepro said:

I suspect this will not shock many people, but Bill Reel (aka dbmormon) has received an invitation to his execution.

You mean a quiet meeting in a church building where men will get together, pray, have a discussion, and possibly remove Bill Reel's membership in the Church?  Which removal can be undone a year later if Bill Reel seeks it?  Which removal Bill Reel has essentially been courting for years?

This is an "execution?"

Melodramatic hyperbole, methinks.

Quote

I guess it's the same conversation we have whenever something like this happens (Dehlin, Sam Young, Kate Kelly),

"Something like this" being a member of the Church knowingly and deliberately and persistently engaging in conduct that appears to fall squarely within the parameters of "apostasy?"

Quote

but should there be a place in the church (or, more accurately, on the membership rolls) for people who have widely divergent points of view on things like the historicity of the Book of Mormon, the supernatural abilities of the current leadership, or even the existence of God and His involvement in world events over the past 6,000 years?

Asking for a friend.

Yes, there is a place.  There are all sorts of people in the Church who have "divergent points of view" on the doctrines and practices and history of the Church, who nevertheless remain in full fellowship.

Dehlin, Kelly, Young, Snuffer, Calderwoods, Runnells . . . they all courted excommunication.  Deliberately.  Intentionally.  They provoked discipline.  They demanded it.  So perhaps we can dispense with the Captain Renault routine.  Nothing surprising or shocking about these folks receiving the discipline they were looking to get (along with notoriety, adulation, 15 minutes of fame, etc.).

Nevertheless, I hope they have a change of heart and return.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited November 16, 2018 by smac97

[Exiled]

3 minutes ago, juliann said:

Public disagreement? Hardly, unless we are to close our eyes to the internet. Disruptive rude behavior is met with the same response it gets in any other group that relies on civility. 

Every once in awhile I run into "both sides." There is always the victim proclaiming how badly they are treated for doing nothing wrong.....and then those in the ward who relate how this victim makes every lesson a shoot out. Just as we see with the men behaving badly in women's topics on this board who think they are victimized for merely speaking truth. The point is to shut down the thread/class/whatever. Not to relay information or opinions. 

I also said I wasn't surprised by this like I would not be surprised to be kicked out of any group for similar public expressions of unbelief in the group.

[Steve J]

I really wasn't going to comment anymore, but I find it odd that those who no longer believe in the Church truth claims (and they have their free agency to do just that without getting shunned or made into evil people) make such a big deal about resigning from the Church and not being on the membership list anymore, but then argue that the Church shouldn't be able to take anyone off its membership list. It seems that in any relationship it should be equal, unless those opposed to excommunication also want to prohibit members from resigning themselves.  I personally think that excommunication should be rare and a last option, but I would think its common sense to expect to be kicked out of any group that I state is false, evil, harmful, and liars.. and oppose their entire mission statement

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, Steve J said:

I really wasn't going to comment anymore, but I find it odd that those who no longer believe in the Church truth claims (and they have their free agency to do just that without getting shunned or made into evil people) make such a big deal about resigning from the Church and not being on the membership list anymore, but then argue that the Church shouldn't be able to take anyone off its membership list. It seems that in any relationship it should be equal, unless those opposed to excommunication also want to prohibit members from resigning themselves.  I personally think that excommunication should be rare and a last option, but I would think its common sense to expect to be kicked out of any group that I state is false, evil, harmful, and liars.. and oppose their entire mission statement

I remember the days when you only heard about DC's happening if someone blabbed about it, now it's like all over everywhere and candle lighting crap and like don't people have any shame anymore? I would be embarrassed and tell no one that it was happening to me! I wouldn't say tickety-boo about it

[DBMormon]

27 minutes ago, Steve J said:

i'll refrain from commenting because my opinion of his 1) intellect, 2) honesty, and 3) behavior is not held in the highest regard. 

I see what you did there.

[DBMormon]

12 minutes ago, Steve J said:

I really wasn't going to comment anymore, but I find it odd that those who no longer believe in the Church truth claims (and they have their free agency to do just that without getting shunned or made into evil people) make such a big deal about resigning from the Church and not being on the membership list anymore, but then argue that the Church shouldn't be able to take anyone off its membership list. It seems that in any relationship it should be equal, unless those opposed to excommunication also want to prohibit members from resigning themselves.  I personally think that excommunication should be rare and a last option, but I would think its common sense to expect to be kicked out of any group that I state is false, evil, harmful, and liars.. and oppose their entire mission statement

this still  represents my testimony quite well
https://mormondiscussions.org/discussion/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/The-Testimony-of-Bill-Reel.pdf

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I remember the days when you only heard about DC's happening if someone blabbed about it, now it's like all over everywhere and candle lighting crap and like don't people have any shame anymore? I would be embarrassed and tell no one that it was happening to me! I wouldn't say tickety-boo about it

For some people (not all), their excommunication (or disciplinary hearing) is a sign that they are right.  It's a sign that the church really is 'out to get them' or 'not representative of the Savior' or 'has fallen into apostasy' or 'is just a bunch of bureaucrats who want to shut people up who don't agree,' etc. so they make it public because they think it says something bad about the church and not about themselves.

 

[Kevin Christensen]

I had some positive exchanges with Bill over the years, including an interview for his podcast.  On that occasion he asked about my FAIR essay on Biblical Keys for Discerning True and False Prophets.  I have at times expressed admiration for his ideals and work, and specific stories he reported and good efforts he made.  I also had a few disagreements wherein I piped in with my views, and notably with his post elsewhere a few years ago on the church as "an abusive father."  There is a difference between exploring a negative incident and considering "What went wrong on this occasion?" and deciding that such occasions fully define the LDS experience. 

On this occasion, I  remember that LDS discipline is not execution, nor, as Nibley pointed out, the same as Catholic excommunication which historically included post-Mortem implications.  LDS excommunication is not God's judgement but a community's concern for the covenants the define and bind it.  It is something that many people can and do come back from.  I have seen that up close and personal.  While many people like to picture the Jesus as offering unconditional love, I notice that it is difficult to find any statements of Jesus that do not explicitly state conditions.  It's not that his love has limits, but that because of his love for us, he is willing to state the conditions deriving from our own actions and attitudes.  He never says, "Because I love you, I will defer and set you free to you make your own commandments. And I will clean up any messes and ensure that nothing you do has any negative consequences for yourself." If my own parents has adopted that attitude, I doubt if I would have survived childhood.  And if I had survived, what sort of person would I be?  Presidential perhaps?

And I would also point out that one of the best predictors of whether relationships such as marriage, will succeed is the ratio of positive comments to negative critical comments.  

Successful relationships typically have about a five to one ratio of positive to negative.  I do remember Bill commenting when Dehlin had his own ratio shift dramatically.  And I've noticed the gradual shift in content and tone and outlook from Bill.

FWIW

Canonsburg, PA

Edited November 15, 2018 by Kevin Christensen

[cinepro]

11 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I remember the days when you only heard about DC's happening if someone blabbed about it, now it's like all over everywhere and candle lighting crap and like don't people have any shame anymore? I would be embarrassed and tell no one that it was happening to me! I wouldn't say tickety-boo about it

I've lived in my current ward for about 10 years.  We're pretty good friends with one family, and I just learned that the husband had been ex'd a few years ago for adultery.  They kept it quiet, and he still attended, but didn't take the sacrament or teach or pray.  Apparently only one of his kids even noticed (most were younger at the time).  Then he was quietly rebaptized.

Sadly, it happened again and now they're getting divorced (which is how I found out about the previous excommunication).  But I was shocked!

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

For some people (not all), their excommunication (or disciplinary hearing) is a sign that they are right.  It's a sign that the church really is 'out to get them' or 'not representative of the Savior' or 'has fallen into apostasy' or 'is just a bunch of bureaucrats who want to shut people up who don't agree,' etc. so they make it public because they think it says something bad about the church and not about themselves.

 

it's like they want 15 minutes of fame or 'look what they are doing to me Aunt Gladys! we'll see what happens I guess. I kind of wonder who the next ex personality will have this?

[smac97]

6 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I remember the days when you only heard about DC's happening if someone blabbed about it, now it's like all over everywhere and candle lighting crap and like don't people have any shame anymore? I would be embarrassed and tell no one that it was happening to me! I wouldn't say tickety-boo about it

Unless, of course, one doesn't really value membership in the Church (or else values it mostly for superficial reasons), but nevertheless sees a disciplinary council as a means of getting publicity, praise, 15 minutes of fame, etc.

Or if one is a wolf in sheep's clothing, and hence sees a disciplinary council as the next step in burnishing one's credentials as an opponent of the Church.

Or if one has become too immersed in modern notions of "activism" and "agitation" and other social movements that come to be more important than the message of the Atonement and the revelations and ordinances and such that are associated with it.

Or if one is within the parameters of the behavior described in Romans 2:

Quote

1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Or the behavior described by Joseph Smith:

Quote

I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”

I think Dehlin, Kelly, Young, etc. have all presented some worthwhile ideas.  But then then proceeded well past those ideas and strayed into apostasy.  I hope they have a change of heart.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

[Steve J]

When we are active Mormons, most of us saw problems. But we somehow intuit that we must protect and show loyalty to the institution in order to belong. So we tell our neighbors how great it is. We pretend to be a perfect family. We smile and we refuse to give voice to the things that are wrong that we see and feel. We allow ourselves to be abused and have trauma inflicted on us. We choose to believe the bad answers we are given because belonging seems so important to us....... then once we step away we sense how much better the world is on the other side. Fear. Risk aversion. Worries about our marriage or family relationship. Those risks are real but most people report being far better as a human being once they step away.  

And yet the Holy Ghost is more effective than secular tools for knowing truth..... meanwhile secular tools showed this to be fake while many Latter-day Saints felt its truthfulness.... huh

And the best modern prophets can do is change the names of activities and protocols and reduce church by an hour and throw past prophets under the bus disavowing their teachings?

 

As I have done that I have become adeptly aware that Mormonism offers the least amount of inspiration of the places I spend my time and energy. It offers the least amount of wisdom. It offers the least amount of encouragement to develop into deeper stages of humanity and consciousness than any of the other areas I spend my time. It can not afford to have you actually seek truth objectively, as you would discover that what you thought was the brightest smoothest pearl in your small pile inside your small box, was actually rough and dull when compared with the immense world of pearls available in the world. But you are not even allowed to take your eyes of the pile in your box to see it. Mormonism is so threatened by real truth that its only course is to scare everyone from even looking.

Mormonism is unhealthy and toxic for so many. It is not the Balm of Gilead for so many

The LDS Church likes its "faithful" scholars. What makes a LDS Scholar "Faithful"? Simple! A LDS Scholar is "faithful" when in spite of knowing the data and the facts and such being their expertise, they prefer to make emotional appeals for the Church being true rather than make any appeal to the data that they are experts in?In other words it is their ability to set their scholar hat aside that makes an LDS scholar "faithful." A Faithful scholar instead is not a scholar at all in such conversations but rather an expert of emotional appeal with an educational degree around scholarship but knows full well that the scholarship he is an expert in, is not on his side of the argument. Arguments only based on the facts essentially never work out in favor of the Church's truth claims and hence a faithful scholar wants to do everything except appeal to scholarship.

Wouldn't it be faster if Prophets, Seers and Revelators could just ask God?

The trouble is once the biased lens of Mormonism was shed from my eyes I began to realize something else about Elder Holland which is that he seems to be deceptive and flat out lying on multiple occasions. And often about small things that seemed to indicate a person who easily decides and chooses to exaggerate and deceive.

In the end, vulnerability and honesty is the only answer. Sadly leaders never seem to contain both.

For the narrative to change, the Church must first go silent in all the ways it imposes the very things it needs to change "“Larger productions, such as pageants, are discouraged. As it relates to existing pageants, conversations with local Church and community leaders are underway to appropriately end, modify or continue these productions.”" Bye bye historical book of Mormon, Bye Bye literal Nephites and Lamanites, Bye Bye Literal Moroni.... and Literal Jesus right along with it! Bye Bye hill Cumorah!!!

"When confronted with evidence of sexual abuse, the church closed ranks in a conspiracy of silence to protect its own reputation at the expense of these children."

Then Jesus asked ....... But they remained silent. Bill Reel asked ......... But they remained silent.

What the ....... Sadly the idea of authority to do what the hell you want because your God said so, even if rationale and reason says your an idiot, is at the heart of why religion is so unhealthy and abusive and toxic

So Mormonism burns everyone out rather than lightens their load? Huh

The world is watching you Mormonism and it isn’t looking to well!

First Moroni tells Joseph that he has to to have Alvin, Joseph's older brother, with him to retrieve the plates. Well strangely Moroni was clueless and God who surely gave Moroni that message was clueless as Alvin died...

Today We sit down with Spencer Wright, author of “How To Think”, and discuss how Faith and Rational thought are actually opposites.

Sadly shame is a huge part of being a believing mormon

A church led by prophets is one of the last to work to protect children. How prophetic!

 

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I've lived in my current ward for about 10 years.  We're pretty good friends with one family, and I just learned that the husband had been ex'd a few years ago for adultery.  They kept it quiet, and he still attended, but didn't take the sacrament or teach or pray.  Apparently only one of his kids even noticed (most were younger at the time).  Then he was quietly rebaptized.

Sadly, it happened again and now they're getting divorced (which is how I found out about the previous excommunication).  But I was shocked!

I am sorry to heard about all that. There is a man in my folks ward still and in the mid 1980's my Mum went to the Church mid week and the parking lot was full of cars and she was like what the heck? She saw someone and asked what is going on and it was a re baptism for the man, come to find out he served his mission here and got one of his investigators pregnant. Nice guy though!

[phaedrus ut]

Bill Reel is being called before a disciplinary council but Tom Phillips actually sued Thomas S. Monson calling him and the church a fraud and is still a member.  Let that sink in for a moment. 

 

Phaedrus 

[Duncan]

1 minute ago, Steve J said:

When we are active Mormons, most of us saw problems. But we somehow intuit that we must protect and show loyalty to the institution in order to belong. So we tell our neighbors how great it is. We pretend to be a perfect family. We smile and we refuse to give voice to the things that are wrong that we see and feel. We allow ourselves to be abused and have trauma inflicted on us. We choose to believe the bad answers we are given because belonging seems so important to us....... then once we step away we sense how much better the world is on the other side. Fear. Risk aversion. Worries about our marriage or family relationship. Those risks are real but most people report being far better as a human being once they step away.  

And yet the Holy Ghost is more effective than secular tools for knowing truth..... meanwhile secular tools showed this to be fake while many Latter-day Saints felt its truthfulness.... huh

And the best modern prophets can do is change the names of activities and protocols and reduce church by an hour and throw past prophets under the bus disavowing their teachings?

 

As I have done that I have become adeptly aware that Mormonism offers the least amount of inspiration of the places I spend my time and energy. It offers the least amount of wisdom. It offers the least amount of encouragement to develop into deeper stages of humanity and consciousness than any of the other areas I spend my time. It can not afford to have you actually seek truth objectively, as you would discover that what you thought was the brightest smoothest pearl in your small pile inside your small box, was actually rough and dull when compared with the immense world of pearls available in the world. But you are not even allowed to take your eyes of the pile in your box to see it. Mormonism is so threatened by real truth that its only course is to scare everyone from even looking.

Mormonism is unhealthy and toxic for so many. It is not the Balm of Gilead for so many

The LDS Church likes its "faithful" scholars. What makes a LDS Scholar "Faithful"? Simple! A LDS Scholar is "faithful" when in spite of knowing the data and the facts and such being their expertise, they prefer to make emotional appeals for the Church being true rather than make any appeal to the data that they are experts in?In other words it is their ability to set their scholar hat aside that makes an LDS scholar "faithful." A Faithful scholar instead is not a scholar at all in such conversations but rather an expert of emotional appeal with an educational degree around scholarship but knows full well that the scholarship he is an expert in, is not on his side of the argument. Arguments only based on the facts essentially never work out in favor of the Church's truth claims and hence a faithful scholar wants to do everything except appeal to scholarship.

Wouldn't it be faster if Prophets, Seers and Revelators could just ask God?

The trouble is once the biased lens of Mormonism was shed from my eyes I began to realize something else about Elder Holland which is that he seems to be deceptive and flat out lying on multiple occasions. And often about small things that seemed to indicate a person who easily decides and chooses to exaggerate and deceive.

In the end, vulnerability and honesty is the only answer. Sadly leaders never seem to contain both.

For the narrative to change, the Church must first go silent in all the ways it imposes the very things it needs to change "“Larger productions, such as pageants, are discouraged. As it relates to existing pageants, conversations with local Church and community leaders are underway to appropriately end, modify or continue these productions.”" Bye bye historical book of Mormon, Bye Bye literal Nephites and Lamanites, Bye Bye Literal Moroni.... and Literal Jesus right along with it! Bye Bye hill Cumorah!!!

"When confronted with evidence of sexual abuse, the church closed ranks in a conspiracy of silence to protect its own reputation at the expense of these children."

Then Jesus asked ....... But they remained silent. Bill Reel asked ......... But they remained silent.

What the ....... Sadly the idea of authority to do what the hell you want because your God said so, even if rationale and reason says your an idiot, is at the heart of why religion is so unhealthy and abusive and toxic

So Mormonism burns everyone out rather than lightens their load? Huh

The world is watching you Mormonism and it isn’t looking to well!

First Moroni tells Joseph that he has to to have Alvin, Joseph's older brother, with him to retrieve the plates. Well strangely Moroni was clueless and God who surely gave Moroni that message was clueless as Alvin died...

Today We sit down with Spencer Wright, author of “How To Think”, and discuss how Faith and Rational thought are actually opposites.

Sadly shame is a huge part of being a believing mormon

A church led by prophets is one of the last to work to protect children. How prophetic!

 

is that a quotation? I find it weird he calls it "his tribe" but also finds it "toxic and unhealthy"

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, Duncan said:

it's like they want 15 minutes of fame or 'look what they are doing to me Aunt Gladys! we'll see what happens I guess. I kind of wonder who the next ex personality will have this?

It does seem like it.

[Storm Rider]

59 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I suspect this will not shock many people, but Bill Reel (aka dbmormon) has received an invitation to his execution.

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2018/11/bill-reel-disciplinary-court-is-imminent/

I guess it's the same conversation we have whenever something like this happens (Dehlin, Sam Young, Kate Kelly), but should there be a place in the church (or, more accurately, on the membership rolls) for people who have widely divergent points of view on things like the historicity of the Book of Mormon, the supernatural abilities of the current leadership, or even the existence of God and His involvement in world events over the past 6,000 years?

Asking for a friend.

 

1

I strongly believe that the Church presently is full of individuals with a widely divergent range of understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ, how God interacts with his children or even his existence. The difference between all of them and Bil is that they do not seek to preach to a wide audience or set themselves up as an expert. They may pose as honest Abes and feign surprise, but it is about as big a surprise as a young adult being capable of stating Santa Claus is not real. 

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, phaedrus ut said:

Bill Reel is being called before a disciplinary council but Tom Phillips actually sued Thomas S. Monson calling him and the church a fraud and is still a member.  Let that sink in for a moment. 

 

Phaedrus 

do you know he wasn't called in for a DC? and is he an active member?