Popular Post Hamba Tuhan Posted October 30, 2018 Popular Post Posted October 30, 2018 57 minutes ago, Tacenda said: ... while others are fearful to be found out that they are Christians in their country. Except that the Pakistani Saints aren't fearful. They are cautious, yes, but they're not afraid. They have found the pearl of great price. It is sweet to them. 6
Avatar4321 Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Except that the Pakistani Saints aren't fearful. They are cautious, yes, but they're not afraid. They have found the pearl of great price. It is sweet to them. I feel very rebuked by this. Perhaps I should show more faith and gratitude for what I haveI feel very rebuked by this. Grabs I should show more faith and gratitude for what I have
lostindc Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 19 hours ago, ksfisher said: There is nothing preventing local wards and stakes from holding events. I don't know about you, but that is the level that I interact with members of the church on, especially my fellow ward members. The purpose of ward buildings, stake centers, and temples is to provide a place to worship together and feel unity. I don't see how the discontinuation of a pageant will prevent this from happening. I don’t know where you’re located, but where I am located, ward buildings are rarely open except for Sunday, youth night, interviews/admin activities, missionary activities, and the rare occasion. The fear of lawsuits has really hindered any activity. Church basketball is gone, road shows don’t exist, and requesting the building for an activity requires a ton of justification. This is nothing like I experienced in the many years prior. I’ve lived all over the U.S. and the approach is rather similar.
Hamba Tuhan Posted October 30, 2018 Posted October 30, 2018 4 hours ago, lostindc said: I don’t know where you’re located, but where I am located, ward buildings are rarely open except for Sunday, youth night, interviews/admin activities, missionary activities, and the rare occasion. Our chapel, shared by two wards, has people in it literally seven days a week. Quote The fear of lawsuits has really hindered any activity. What kind of lawsuits exactly? Quote Church basketball is gone ... We have basketball at our chapel every Saturday morning at 6am for anyone who wants to join in. Quote ... and requesting the building for an activity requires a ton of justification. The Church calendar allows anyone with a leadership calling to reserve a chapel (or part thereof) for any reason (as long as it's not already booked), no justification needed. To reserve a chapel for a non-church event just requires asking anyone with a leadership calling. Unless your stake has clamped down on default online settings for some reason? 1
lostindc Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Our chapel, shared by two wards, has people in it literally seven days a week. What kind of lawsuits exactly? We have basketball at our chapel every Saturday morning at 6am for anyone who wants to join in. The Church calendar allows anyone with a leadership calling to reserve a chapel (or part thereof) for any reason (as long as it's not already booked), no justification needed. To reserve a chapel for a non-church event just requires asking anyone with a leadership calling. Unless your stake has clamped down on default online settings for some reason? you're not in the states, are you? Your questions and comments in this thread display someone really out of touch with Mormonism in the states. Edited October 31, 2018 by lostindc
Hamba Tuhan Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, lostindc said: you're not in the states, are you? No, I don't live in America, though I did in the past. Quote Your questions and comments in this thread display someone really out of touch with Mormonism in the states. I'm happy for Americans to share their views and experiences. I'm still interested in knowing, however, what specific kind of lawsuits has shut down Church activities where you live. Also, the online Church calendar is a single platform globally, so what I described about reserving buildings is baked into the software, and the instructions for use are clear if you peruse the official LDS Tech Forum. Edited October 31, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan 2
The Nehor Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 I think there is a growing sense that we now need to look more to the future and less to the past. I do not mean this to demean the things we have been doing or to try to cut the cord to our heritage but there is a growing emphasis on individual spirituality over a kind of group identity. I suspect we are in for some interesting times and we will probably lose a ton of camp followers but those that remain (and many of them will be those who appear to be camp followers now) will be much stronger. 3
Popular Post Rain Posted October 31, 2018 Popular Post Posted October 31, 2018 15 hours ago, lostindc said: I don’t know where you’re located, but where I am located, ward buildings are rarely open except for Sunday, youth night, interviews/admin activities, missionary activities, and the rare occasion. The fear of lawsuits has really hindered any activity. Church basketball is gone, road shows don’t exist, and requesting the building for an activity requires a ton of justification. This is nothing like I experienced in the many years prior. I’ve lived all over the U.S. and the approach is rather similar. Your experience in the states doesn't go with my experience in the states. I have found that rarely are there activities on Monday, but often there are activities the other days and I've never heard of lawsuit problems. We still have church basketball for the men along with volleyball for the women as well as yoga, aerobics and other fitness classes for the women. We've had several service projects, many funerals, weddings, family and friend parties. I'm not surprised that some buildings are used only as much as your experience shows, but my experience shows that it is not truly indicative of American experience. 5
Kenngo1969 Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 On 10/29/2018 at 10:17 AM, HappyJackWagon said: I disagree. While there may only be a small number of BIG pageants there are many localities that also put on shows. While the statement says these kinds of local events "May" continue, it definitely puts them in doubt and will probably be a chilling effect on going forward. I don't have a problem with making changes to pageants or even eliminating them if particular pageants struggle. But that can be done on an individual, administrative basis. There's no need for a massive announcement about it. Again, I believe the announcement will have a chilling effect on these kinds of activities locally as well. I think you're largely right about this. He doesn't seem beholden to tradition, which is a good thing. But there is a cost to overturning tradition. One simply has to decide whether the benefit is worth the cost. Does anyone know how this will impact the cultural celebrations associated with temple dedication/rededications? I agree that it's not a great missionary tool but I don't really think that has been the main point for many years. I think it has been more about engaging church membership. I'm curious to see how things will progress regarding member engagement as large institutional activities continue to be reduced. Pres. Nelson definitely seems to have a different approach than Hinkley and Monson regarding community involvement. Maybe the church will become more ecumenical and participate more with other churches. That would be a great direction IMO. I have my doubts whether you are interpreting that "may" correctly. In addition to conditional statements ("I may winter in Hawaii this year ..." or I may not, depending on some condition or circumstance) "may" is also used to ask and to grant permission: "May I ask you a question?" "Yes, you may." In this instance, it is being used in the latter sense rather than in the former. And if pageants haven't been great missionary tools for years, perhaps is worth asking what, precisely, their purpose is, and how well that purpose aligns with the four-fold mission of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. For example, it's interesting how many of the same people who criticize the Church of Jesus Christ for building so many Temples are some of the same ones bemoaning the loss of pageants. The very fact that they have become disaffected is evidence that pageants have become less effective at achieving one prong (and perhaps two prongs) of the mission of the Church of Jesus Christ (proclaiming the Gospel and perfecting the Saints). However, according to some of the disaffected, the Church shouldn't build so many temples, yet it should continue the pageants (even though the former is directly aligned with its mission ... redeeming the dead and perfecting the Saints ... while, according to even some of the disaffected, the latter ... staging elaborate pageants ... has become less effective at achieving that mission as a missionary tool. This quandary seems to provide perfect evidence that some are determined to find fault with how the Church of Jesus Christ uses its resources no matter what. 3
HappyJackWagon Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: I have my doubts whether you are interpreting that "may" correctly. In addition to conditional statements ("I may winter in Hawaii this year ..." or I may not, depending on some condition or circumstance) "may" is also used to ask and to grant permission: "May I ask you a question?" "Yes, you may." In this instance, it is being used in the latter sense rather than in the former. And if pageants haven't been great missionary tools for years, perhaps is worth asking what, precisely, their purpose is, and how well that purpose aligns with the four-fold mission of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. For example, it's interesting how many of the same people who criticize the Church of Jesus Christ for building so many Temples are some of the same ones bemoaning the loss of pageants. The very fact that they have become disaffected is evidence that pageants have become less effective at achieving one prong (and perhaps two prongs) of the mission of the Church of Jesus Christ (proclaiming the Gospel and perfecting the Saints). However, according to some of the disaffected, the Church shouldn't build so many temples, yet it should continue the pageants (even though the former is directly aligned with its mission ... redeeming the dead and perfecting the Saints ... while, according to even some of the disaffected, the latter ... staging elaborate pageants ... has become less effective at achieving that mission as a missionary tool. This quandary seems to provide perfect evidence that some are determined to find fault with how the Church of Jesus Christ uses its resources no matter what. I like your thoughts here and recognize that you "may" be right The difference in meaning between "might" and "allowed" is significant. Perhaps more precise language would be useful. In lieu of more precise language I expect this will be interpreted in a variety of ways.
Popular Post bsjkki Posted October 31, 2018 Popular Post Posted October 31, 2018 11 hours ago, lostindc said: you're not in the states, are you? Your questions and comments in this thread display someone really out of touch with Mormonism in the states. I am in the states and share that same experience. The building is used often. We are still allowed to have piano recitals, birthday parties, family gatherings for Christmas and Thanksgiving. People just have to treat it well and schedule it when it is not used for church purposes. Private events happen all the time. There is a basketball group that meets every Wednesday night after youth activities. I was the building scheduler for years. 6
HappyJackWagon Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 9 minutes ago, bsjkki said: I am in the states and share that same experience. The building is used often. We are still allowed to have piano recitals, birthday parties, family gatherings for Christmas and Thanksgiving. People just have to treat it well and schedule it when it is not used for church purposes. Private events happen all the time. There is a basketball group that meets every Wednesday night after youth activities. I was the building scheduler for years. This is totally a local decision but IIRC handbook instructions discourage personal use for the issues you state. I have no doubt that many SP's and bishops ignore that handbook guidance, but many also take it to heart and follow it closely.
bsjkki Posted October 31, 2018 Posted October 31, 2018 33 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: This is totally a local decision but IIRC handbook instructions discourage personal use for the issues you state. I have no doubt that many SP's and bishops ignore that handbook guidance, but many also take it to heart and follow it closely. I'm trying to find this guidance and am failing. "Receptions and Social Gatherings Receptions and small social gatherings for Church members or their families may be held in Church meetinghouses if they do not interrupt regularly scheduled Church activities. They should not be held on Sundays or on Monday evenings. Receptions and small social gatherings may be held in the cultural hall or in other rooms, but they may not be held in the chapel unless the chapel is a multipurpose area. Those in charge of the reception are responsible for cleanup. When meetinghouses are used for receptions and other small social gatherings for Church members or their families, users do not need to sign a Hold Harmless Agreement." https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/08636_eng.pdf?lang=eng Handbook 2 https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/selected-church-policies/21.2?lang=eng&_r=1#212 Small social gatherings and piano recitals are not banned. Piano recitals may be held if a fee is not imposed and members are participating because the church wants to encourage members to learn. "When there is not a reasonable alternative, priesthood leaders may authorize the use of meetinghouse pianos and organs for practice, paid private instruction, and recitals involving members of the units that use the meetinghouse. No admittance fee should be charged for recitals." I studied all these rules for my calling. 4
lostindc Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 On 10/30/2018 at 8:05 PM, Hamba Tuhan said: No, I don't live in America, though I did in the past. I'm happy for Americans to share their views and experiences. I'm still interested in knowing, however, what specific kind of lawsuits has shut down Church activities where you live. Also, the online Church calendar is a single platform globally, so what I described about reserving buildings is baked into the software, and the instructions for use are clear if you peruse the official LDS Tech Forum. We had several lawsuits. One was a lawsuit over getting hurt playing basketball and another lawsuit was claimed theft from a vehicle in the parking lot. Neither lawsuit went anywhere. There’s been other lawsuits, but the stake leadership shut down church basketball. 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted November 5, 2018 Posted November 5, 2018 Update: Quote The Hill Cumorah Pageant will be discontinued entirely following its 2020 summer production. Additionally, the Mormon Miracle Pageant will no longer be directly supported by the Church after its 2019 run. Mark Olson, president of the Mormon Miracle Pageant, told the Deseret News that while the Church’s direct support will no longer continue after its 2019 run, he believes local efforts by the community will be made to help a similar pageant continue in future years. Due to renovations of the Mesa Arizona Temple and temple grounds, the Mesa Easter Pageant has been temporarily suspended. It is expected to resume production in 2020 following the completion of the temple renovations, with public renderings showing a pageant stage and seating accommodations. In a statement released following the Church’s announcement on October 27, President John Ricks, president of the Nauvoo Illinois Stake, indicated that no changes are anticipated for the Nauvoo pageants. The two “will continue in the future the same as it has in the past, being fully supported and funded by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,” said President Ricks in his statement. Changes to the other pageants have not yet been announced. 2
Avatar4321 Posted November 5, 2018 Posted November 5, 2018 On 10/30/2018 at 4:20 PM, Hamba Tuhan said: Our chapel, shared by two wards, has people in it literally seven days a week. What kind of lawsuits exactly? We have basketball at our chapel every Saturday morning at 6am for anyone who wants to join in. The Church calendar allows anyone with a leadership calling to reserve a chapel (or part thereof) for any reason (as long as it's not already booked), no justification needed. To reserve a chapel for a non-church event just requires asking anyone with a leadership calling. Unless your stake has clamped down on default online settings for some reason? Why would anyone want to do something at 6am? 1
bluebell Posted November 5, 2018 Posted November 5, 2018 On 10/31/2018 at 8:34 AM, HappyJackWagon said: This is totally a local decision but IIRC handbook instructions discourage personal use for the issues you state. I have no doubt that many SP's and bishops ignore that handbook guidance, but many also take it to heart and follow it closely. Our church is reserved for personal events all the time. Birthdays, anniversaries, receptions, funerals, family reunions, etc. Even nonmembers will use the church or Bowery for stuff. What does it say in the handbook about it? 2
bluebell Posted November 5, 2018 Posted November 5, 2018 On 10/30/2018 at 8:42 PM, lostindc said: you're not in the states, are you? Your questions and comments in this thread display someone really out of touch with Mormonism in the states. This is how it works in my Utah ward. I was the building scheduler for 18 months. I scheduled a ton of family events and parties. 1
Calm Posted November 5, 2018 Posted November 5, 2018 27 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: Why would anyone want to do something at 6am? I want to do something at 6 am...sleep. 3
Calm Posted November 5, 2018 Posted November 5, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, bluebell said: This is how it works in my Utah ward. I was the building scheduler for 18 months. I scheduled a ton of family events and parties. Same in Calgary, Canada. Seems like a lot of us have been building schedulers. Edited November 5, 2018 by Calm 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted November 5, 2018 Posted November 5, 2018 47 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: Why would anyone want to do something at 6am? I sincerely have no clue! We have our stake presidency meetings each Sunday at 6am, which means I have to be up by 4:15. I feel like each one shaves a month off my life expectancy. 2
bluebell Posted November 5, 2018 Posted November 5, 2018 25 minutes ago, Calm said: Same in Calgary, Canada. Seems like a lot of us have been building schedulers. We’re obviously the cool kids. 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted November 5, 2018 Posted November 5, 2018 31 minutes ago, Calm said: Seems like a lot of us have been building schedulers. A calling now redundant.
cdowis Posted November 5, 2018 Posted November 5, 2018 One event in my life I remember was a stake production that showed the history of the church in our state of GA Does this affect the temple dedication youth productions?
Hamba Tuhan Posted November 5, 2018 Posted November 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, cdowis said: Does this affect the temple dedication youth productions? Just pageants. And as you can see from the update above, only some of them.
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