Scaling back Church pageants

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Sad, but, I have to acknowledge, probably true. 

In my younger adulthood, I attended the Mormon Miracle pageant at Manti for several years running. On each occasion, it moved me to tears. But I have to say I don’t think it instilled within me a degree of faith and conviction that was not already present. 

It may just be a matter of our expanding, global Church having outgrown certain things. I well remember in my childhood the annual All-church Dance Festivals and sports tournaments that were held. We have long since outgrown them.

I think this new First Presidency has shown itself quite willing and ready to make drastic changes and discard traditions. Not long before he was called into the First Presidency, Dallin H. Oaks indicated in a seminar that some Church visitors centers would be closed based on an assessment of their effectiveness. Also, new missionary application interviews would become much more detailed and searching. Those changes occurred shortly thereafter. 

Yesterday at tithing settlement, our bishop gave our family a copy of the new manual “‘Come Follow Me’ for Individuals and Families.” This, of course, is an integral part of the new home-based curriculum that will be implemented in the new year. I’m eager to give my best efforts to follow it earnestly, expecting that blessings will come therefrom. 

Surprises me they didn't put out questionaires like they have before with things in the church, such as temple experiences, garments to name a few. 

Like you mentioned, the dances and the tournaments etc. those were the best days of being a member of this church for me, and if the leaders were inspired enough, they would know this. The church will become just another big church entity.

Shoot, I don't have time to continue with this post, will have to cut it short, have to go somewhere. 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Tacenda

[ksfisher]

10 minutes ago, lostindc said:

The management behind the decision is dismissive of the desires of the east coast membership.   Losing the Hill C Pageant is devastating.  I have a family member just heart broken over this decision and so are her friends.  What members near, or within, the Mormon curtain forget is that in most areas, Mormons have nearly zero presence.  The hill pageant provided a place of numbers, of unity, a place to feel normal, a place to worship together and enjoy the arts.  Church management is so extremely out of touch on this decision.  Easily, one of the dumber decisions of late.  Worse than the latest rounds of excommunications, dissolving scouts, etc.  

If this is an expense decision, then shame on the Church.  Use some of your investment dollars and support the gathering/fellowshipping of members and the arts, instead of building malls, hunting preserves, or whatever else.  

There is nothing preventing local wards and stakes from holding events.  I don't know about you, but that is the level that I interact with members of the church on, especially my fellow ward members. 

The purpose of ward buildings, stake centers, and temples is to provide a place to worship together and feel unity.  I don't see how the discontinuation of a pageant will prevent this from happening.

[Hamba Tuhan]

33 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think this new First Presidency has shown itself quite willing and ready to make drastic changes and discard traditions.

My understanding is that preparation for these changes has been in the works for a number of years already. I've many times brought up what Elder Bednar told us to expect change-wise nearly four years ago. It would be interesting to know if everything just recently fell into place or if this particular First Presidency felt an urgency to act now. In either case, I am personally sure that the Lord is overseeing the process.

34 minutes ago, lostindc said:

The management behind the decision is dismissive of the desires of the east coast membership.   Losing the Hill C Pageant is devastating.  I have a family member just heart broken over this decision and so are her friends.

Elder Bednar did tell us that the American Saints would be the ones to find coming changes hardest to accept, primarily for cultural reasons. I suspect he was not wrong.

At the same time, I find your observation interesting. I spent several years of my life living in America's northeast. I don't remember a single member having any kind of attachment to the Hill Cumorah Pageant. In fact, I can't remember a single member who ever mentioned having attended. No doubt some had.

Quote

What members near, or within, the Mormon curtain forget is that in most areas, Mormons have nearly zero presence.

I'm about as far away from the 'Mormon curtain' as one can get. I live in a nation where Latter-day Saints would have even less of a presence than the eastern US. By far. Do you think the Church should be creating a pageant of some kind here to meet our needs?

Edited October 29, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

27 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Like you mentioned, the dances and the tournaments etc. those were the best days of being a member of this church for me, and if the leaders were inspired enough, they would know this.

If the leaders were inspired enough, they would know that your favourite thing about the Church was its dances and tournaments? Not, inter alia, its doctrines or its ordinances, its spiritual gifts or the myriad opportunities it provides us to develop through Christlike service? Have you considered the possibility that maybe they do know this? 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[ksfisher]

2 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

If the leaders were inspired enough, they would know that your favourite thing about the Church was its dances and tournaments? Not, inter alia, its doctrines or its ordinances, its spiritual gifts or the myriad opportunities it provides us to develop through Christlike service? Have you considered the possibility that maybe they do know this? 

I've heard Elder Bednar say a couple of times that we need to "focus on what matters most."  I believe the changes that have been made, as well as any more that will come, will help us do this. 

[Tacenda]

13 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

If the leaders were inspired enough, they would know that your favourite thing about the Church was its dances and tournaments? Not, inter alia, its doctrines or its ordinances, its spiritual gifts or the myriad opportunities it provides us to develop through Christlike service? Have you considered the possibility that maybe they do know this? 

That did kinda look funny. But I am not alone in thinking it.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

I've heard Elder Bednar say a couple of times that we need to "focus on what matters most."  I believe the changes that have been made, as well as any more that will come, will help us do this. 

Yep, I can assure you that the Saints in Pakistan are not fretting over the demise of a few American pageants that they haven't really heard much or anything about.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

Just now, Tacenda said:

That did kinda look funny. But I am not alone in thinking it.

I'm certain you're not. 

[Tacenda]

Just now, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yep, I can assure you that the Saints in Pakistan are not fretting over the demise of a few American pageants that they haven't really heard much or anything about.

But maybe they can have their own traditions? Such as your ward seems to be doing.

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 hours ago, Tacenda said:

But maybe they can have their own traditions?

Of course they can! Within limits, of course, considering that branch locations aren't even publicised ... or that drawing too much attention to themselves risks violence ...

Edited October 30, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[ksfisher]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

But maybe they can have their own traditions? Such as your ward seems to be doing.

So they can continue with those.  The local wards and stakes in the United States and anywhere can continue with their traditions.  No changes to anything like that.

[Okrahomer]

7 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Do you have any reference about the missionary department running the pageants.

BYU Religious Studies:  

“Pageants also come under the direction of the Missionary Department. The Hill Cumorah, Nauvoo, Manti, Castle Valley, Clarkston, Mesa, and other large pageants receive financial aid for staging, costumes, and support.”

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Do you have any reference about the missionary department running the pageants. I've never heard that. I understand they would call "missionaries" to work on pageants but I didn't realize the M Dept actually administered the pageants. Interesting.

I'm all for Home Church. Sounds great to me!

But I do think there will be consequences by reducing community aspects of church.

I covered Church pageants off and on during the 33 years I was at the Church News. Pageants was an office under the administration of the Missionary Department. Typically there would be a local committee with a presidency for each pageant, but always under the supervision of the Missionary Department and never autonomous. 

[Avatar4321]

11 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This kind of announcement feels like an austerity movement. Not just about reducing use of financial resources but also of time. My stake does a BIG play every year. A cast of 100, plays for a few nights, invite the community etc. But it takes a ton of time and money. Maybe that kind of thing will be permitted to continue, I don't know. But it feels like with the 2 hour church announcement focusing on families teaching in the home, the church is trying to reduce the time families spend apart for church activities. Of course I could be wrong, but it has the same kind of feel to me as previous calls to reduce meetings. The meetings weren't bad, just as these cultural activities aren't bad, they're just expensive in time/money. I can understand that but I also think there is a risk of minimizing the commitment and enthusiasm of large groups of members by getting rid of cultural events. If all the fun is sucked out of church activities and community, who will want to be involved?

I think Pres. Nelson will need to be careful not to come across as the anti-fun prophet. He's making administrative decisions that aren't necessarily going to make him beloved.

 

I don't go to church to have fun. I go to church because it's true

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

I don't go to church to have fun. I go to church because it's true

For what it's worth, I find truth fun! 

[Calm]

55 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

For what it's worth, I find truth fun! 

Exploring truth can be great fun.  Sometimes living it though is very painful.

[Mystery Meat]

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

 

Elder Bednar did tell us that the American Saints would be the ones to find coming changes hardest to accept, primarily for cultural reasons. I suspect he was not wrong.

BYU Football is next.

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

BYU Football is next.

I wouldn't miss the traffic jams, but I am willing to endure them for Garden Girl's sake.

[Hamba Tuhan]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

Exploring truth can be great fun.  Sometimes living it though is very painful.

It's heaps better than the alternative, in my opinion. The best, happiest, brightest moments of my life have all occurred as a consequence of my covenant relationship with Christ. This would also include the most joyful and the most fun.

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yep, I can assure you that the Saints in Pakistan are not fretting over the demise of a few American pageants that they haven't really heard much or anything about.

Probably not. But are there many Latter-day Saints in Pakistan?  Honest question. 

[Calm]

2015:

Quote

Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles dedicated the country in 2007, when there were 2,000 members serving in seven branches. Today there are 4,000 members, 13 branches, and three districts.

https://www.lds.org/church/news/elder-rasband-says-promise-potential-define-church-in-india-pakistan?lang=eng

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

But are there many Latter-day Saints in Pakistan?  Honest question. 

The Church is very cautious about releasing details regarding its presence in Pakistan. Pakistani branches and leaders don't even show up in the Church Directory of Organisations and Leaders. The link from Calm above is the only official one I'm aware of. It's from 2015.

I can confirm that we now have 14 branches and closer to 5,000 members. We also have missionaries serving in the country and have had for quite a few years. Persecution of Christians in Pakistan is a very real threat that members face in many areas, and they have to tread very carefully to avoid things like blasphemy laws.

Enjoy this photo of a convert baptismal service:

And another baptismal service for kids:

Our members, thankfully, have been spared any serious persecution so far, but they keep a pretty low profile.

I hope some of the Americans on this forum will forgive me for being a bit thin skinned when people start whingeing about the Church not focussing more on dog and pony shows. For so many Saints around the world, the decision to enter the covenant path is a bit more serious than that.

I still remember attending a regional priesthood leadership training meeting with Pres Packer when I was serving as an elders quorum president in America. He had, he told us, just returned from organising a stake in Nigeria, no member of which had been in the Church for more than seven years. Then he asked us when we priesthood leaders in the US were going to grow up, stop being 'spiritual babies' (his exact words) and stop wasting the apostles' time.

I have a strong feeling that when the prophets are praying in the temple each week for revelations that will guide the work of the Church at this moment in history, the Saints that are before their eyes may well be those in the photos above and not the lax multi-generation American 'Mormons' for whom this is all just some superficial cultural identity.

Quoting the Church News article: 'Elder Rasband said members worldwide could learn much from the Indian and Pakistani members. They focus on the gospel’s essential principles: faith, repentance, baptism, and the gift and influence of the Holy Ghost. They are unified'.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

The Church is very cautious about releasing details regarding its presence in Pakistan. Pakistani branches and leaders don't even show up in the Church Directory of Organisations and Leaders. The link from Calm above is the only official one I'm aware of. It's from 2015.

I can confirm that we now have 14 branches and closer to 5,000 members. We also have missionaries serving in the country and have had for quite a few years. Persecution of Christians in Pakistan is a very real threat that members face in many areas, and they have to tread very carefully to avoid things like blasphemy laws.

Enjoy this photo of a convert baptismal service:

And another baptismal service for kids:

Our members, thankfully, have been spared any serious persecution so far, but they keep a pretty low profile.

I hope some of the Americans on this forum will forgive me for being a bit thin skinned when people start whingeing about the Church not focussing more on dog and pony shows. For so many Saints around the world, the decision to enter the covenant path is a bit more serious than that.

I still remember attending a regional priesthood leadership training meeting with Pres Packer when I was serving as an elders quorum president in America. He had, he told us, just returned from organising a stake in Nigeria, no member of which had been in the Church for more than seven years. Then he asked us when we priesthood leaders in the US were going to grow up, stop being 'spiritual babies' (his exact words) and stop wasting the apostles' time.

I have a strong feeling that when the prophets are praying in the temple each week for revelations that will guide the work of the Church at this moment in history, the Saints that are before their eyes may well be those in the photos above and not the lax multi-generation American 'Mormons' for whom this is all just some superficial cultural identity.

I've never been comfortable with concept of  "cultural Mormons" for the reasons you suggest here. (See my sig line quote below from Kiwi57).

Edited October 30, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

Quote

The Church is very cautious about releasing details regarding its presence in Pakistan. Pakistani branches and leaders don't even show up in the Church Directory of Organisations and Leaders.

Explains why the Church's Pakistani Facebook page is just sharing inspirational stuff from lds.org, bomcentral, and other nonlocal stuff from what I saw.

[Tacenda]

49 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

The Church is very cautious about releasing details regarding its presence in Pakistan. Pakistani branches and leaders don't even show up in the Church Directory of Organisations and Leaders. The link from Calm above is the only official one I'm aware of. It's from 2015.

I can confirm that we now have 14 branches and closer to 5,000 members. We also have missionaries serving in the country and have had for quite a few years. Persecution of Christians in Pakistan is a very real threat that members face in many areas, and they have to tread very carefully to avoid things like blasphemy laws.

Enjoy this photo of a convert baptismal service:

And another baptismal service for kids:

Our members, thankfully, have been spared any serious persecution so far, but they keep a pretty low profile.

I hope some of the Americans on this forum will forgive me for being a bit thin skinned when people start whingeing about the Church not focussing more on dog and pony shows. For so many Saints around the world, the decision to enter the covenant path is a bit more serious than that.

I still remember attending a regional priesthood leadership training meeting with Pres Packer when I was serving as an elders quorum president in America. He had, he told us, just returned from organising a stake in Nigeria, no member of which had been in the Church for more than seven years. Then he asked us when we priesthood leaders in the US were going to grow up, stop being 'spiritual babies' (his exact words) and stop wasting the apostles' time.

I have a strong feeling that when the prophets are praying in the temple each week for revelations that will guide the work of the Church at this moment in history, the Saints that are before their eyes may well be those in the photos above and not the lax multi-generation American 'Mormons' for whom this is all just some superficial cultural identity.

Quoting the Church News article: 'Elder Rasband said members worldwide could learn much from the Indian and Pakistani members. They focus on the gospel’s essential principles: faith, repentance, baptism, and the gift and influence of the Holy Ghost. They are unified'.

I'm embarrassed at my whining, while others are fearful to be found out that they are Christians in their country.