Scaling back Church pageants

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm going to have to chalk this announcement as not directly from God, but a policy change. 

You’re really trying to get my back up, aren’t you? 😡 

As I’ve been at pains to argue within the last few days, a policy change can come from God as surely as anything else. 

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You’re really trying to get my back up, aren’t you? 😡 

As I’ve been at pains to argue within the last few days, a policy change can come from God as surely as anything else. 

I probably have no business in saying anything, because of my belief issues of late. But I'm a 56 year old and like you have fond memories of these pageants and of the old Road Shows. I will say it like I see it. And funnily, my husband and I were called to help with the Christmas party in my new ward today. And I hope to high heaven it's a fun one! Like I mentioned to Calm, my old ward stopped the skits and the talent shows and having Santa, so maybe I'll add my two cents on the party in my new ward, hoping for the best. And I do see the church's changes as disturbing. But me being in the state of mind I'm in now, I feel a bit freer to say what I feel, since I don't have the loyalty I once had to the leadership. Hopefully the church doesn't put the brakes on the Saviour of the World that my children participated in a few years ago which was probably one of the first stakes to do it, besides the one at Temple Square. Two of my sons played in it in two different years, they do one every couple of years in place of Youth Conference in my old stake. Couldn't they allow different wards to do different things all over the world? I love how Hamba's ward does what they do. I feel like the new changes are sucking out all the fun, the new "keep it simple" is not all that great. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

19 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Couldn't they allow different wards to do different things all over the world?

Again quoting from the media release: 'Local celebrations of culture and history may be appropriate. Larger productions, such as pageants, are discouraged'. There is nothing stopping wards and stakes doing different things.

Just as an FYI, our ward Christmas party this year will be held on a peninsula in one of our lakes: swimming and eating will be the focus. Is that fun enough for you?

Edited October 29, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Tacenda]

20 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Again quoting from the media release: 'Local celebrations of culture and history may be appropriate. Larger productions, such as pageants, are discouraged'. There is something stopping wards and stakes doing different things.

Just as an FYI, our ward Christmas party this year will be held on a peninsula in one of our lakes: swimming and eating will be the focus. Is that fun enough for you?

Hahahaha! Is it ever! 

[changed]

going around on fb right now:
"No more Boy Scouts. No more home teachers. No more high priest group meetings. No Hill Cumorah Pageant. 2 hour block. No more referring to ourselves as "Mormons" or even members of the LDS Church. Renaming the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. Ceasing to report annual membership statistics during General Conference... and caffeinated drinks at BYU 

[Hamba Tuhan]

16 minutes ago, changed said:

No more high priest group meetings.

True-ish, though the newly constituted high priests quorum (of which ward/branch groups were always just a part) still has meetings. Our stake has already had one.

Quote

No more Boy Scouts ... No Hill Cumorah Pageant.

We've never had Boy Scouts or a Hill Cumorah (or any other kind of) Pageant here, so business as usual for most of the world. Elder Bednar did tell us nearly four years ago that American Saints would be the ones to struggle most as the Church grows into a genuinely global organisation.

Quote

No more referring to ourselves as "Mormons" or even members of the LDS Church.

Something I've never done.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I probably have no business in saying anything, because of my belief issues of late. But I'm a 56 year old and like you have fond memories of these pageants and of the old Road Shows. I will say it like I see it. And funnily, my husband and I were called to help with the Christmas party in my new ward today. And I hope to high heaven it's a fun one! Like I mentioned to Calm, my old ward stopped the skits and the talent shows and having Santa, so maybe I'll add my two cents on the party in my new ward, hoping for the best. And I do see the church's changes as disturbing. But me being in the state of mind I'm in now, I feel a bit freer to say what I feel, since I don't have the loyalty I once had to the leadership. Hopefully the church doesn't put the brakes on the Saviour of the World that my children participated in a few years ago which was probably one of the first stakes to do it, besides the one at Temple Square. Two of my sons played in it in two different years, they do one every couple of years in place of Youth Conference in my old stake. Couldn't they allow different wards to do different things all over the world? I love how Hamba's ward does what they do. I feel like the new changes are sucking out all the fun, the new "keep it simple" is not all that great. 

That probably sounded more hostile than I intended it. It was meant to be jocular. And you probably weren’t privy to the conversation I was part of on here a couple of days ago, but my point was that a thing should not automatically be regarded as uninspired just because it is considered “policy” and not “doctrine.” I think that’s a misguided presumption. 

[Tacenda]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

That probably sounded more hostile than I intended it. It was meant to be jocular. And you probably weren’t privy to the conversation I was part of on here a couple of days ago, but my point was that a thing should not automatically be regarded as uninspired just because it is considered “policy” and not “doctrine.” I think that’s a misguided presumption. 

I took it as jocular Scott, I know you, I think.

[JLHPROF]

9 hours ago, changed said:

going around on fb right now:
"No more Boy Scouts. No more home teachers. No more high priest group meetings. No Hill Cumorah Pageant. 2 hour block. No more referring to ourselves as "Mormons" or even members of the LDS Church. Renaming the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. Ceasing to report annual membership statistics during General Conference... and caffeinated drinks at BYU 

Well, at 90+ President Nelson realises he has limited time to leave his mark and implement his vision.  I would continue to expect big announcements at each General Conference.

[HappyJackWagon]

This kind of announcement feels like an austerity movement. Not just about reducing use of financial resources but also of time. My stake does a BIG play every year. A cast of 100, plays for a few nights, invite the community etc. But it takes a ton of time and money. Maybe that kind of thing will be permitted to continue, I don't know. But it feels like with the 2 hour church announcement focusing on families teaching in the home, the church is trying to reduce the time families spend apart for church activities. Of course I could be wrong, but it has the same kind of feel to me as previous calls to reduce meetings. The meetings weren't bad, just as these cultural activities aren't bad, they're just expensive in time/money. I can understand that but I also think there is a risk of minimizing the commitment and enthusiasm of large groups of members by getting rid of cultural events. If all the fun is sucked out of church activities and community, who will want to be involved?

I think Pres. Nelson will need to be careful not to come across as the anti-fun prophet. He's making administrative decisions that aren't necessarily going to make him beloved.

 

[ksfisher]

13 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This kind of announcement feels like an austerity movement. Not just about reducing use of financial resources but also of time.

From what I understand the missionary department has been evaluating pageants for a few years now and determined that they weren't really accomplishing the purpose for which they were intended, which is to spread the gospel.  In that regard it was a lot of money and a lot of time and not a very big payoff.  As people consume media in new and different ways the church needs to continue to develop ways to reach people through new media.  The pageant format had, for better or worse, run it's course.

[pogi]

21 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This kind of announcement feels like an austerity movement. Not just about reducing use of financial resources but also of time. My stake does a BIG play every year. A cast of 100, plays for a few nights, invite the community etc. But it takes a ton of time and money. Maybe that kind of thing will be permitted to continue, I don't know. But it feels like with the 2 hour church announcement focusing on families teaching in the home, the church is trying to reduce the time families spend apart for church activities. Of course I could be wrong, but it has the same kind of feel to me as previous calls to reduce meetings. The meetings weren't bad, just as these cultural activities aren't bad, they're just expensive in time/money. I can understand that but I also think there is a risk of minimizing the commitment and enthusiasm of large groups of members by getting rid of cultural events. If all the fun is sucked out of church activities and community, who will want to be involved?

I think Pres. Nelson will need to be careful not to come across as the anti-fun prophet. He's making administrative decisions that aren't necessarily going to make him beloved.

This announcement really affects only a couple small communities in the church.  The Manti pageant has been around for 80 + years, and has not really changed at all in all of those years.  People have become disinterested.  Attendance has dropped 40+ percent in the last few years.  I think this news will be hard for that community as it is a part of their cultural identity.  Almost everyone has memories of participating in the pageant in childhood and at different times in their life.   It has also been an economic boost for the community.  So, I am not saying that it won't be hard for them to see it go, but it was already on it's way out.

I think the majority of the church is thrilled with the simplification and reduction of burden and commitment of time so that we can focus on having more time for fun with our families.  I don't see him as an anti-fun prophet at all.  I think he is progressive.  He is ending old, tired, and stale cultural practices that take lots of time and money.  This all frees up time for family, and yes...fun.      

[HappyJackWagon]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

This announcement really affects only a couple small communities in the church.  The Manti pageant has been around for 80 + years, and has not really changed at all in all of those years.  People have become disinterested.  Attendance has dropped 40+ percent in the last few years.  I think this news will be hard for that community as it is a part of their cultural identity.  Almost everyone has memories of participating in the pageant in childhood and at different times in their life.   It has also been an economic boost for the community.  So, I am not saying that it won't be hard for them to see it go, but it was already on it's way out.

I think the majority of the church is thrilled with the simplification and reduction of burden and commitment of time so that we can focus on having more time for fun with our families.  I don't see him as an anti-fun prophet at all.  I think he is progressive.  He is ending old, tired, and stale cultural practices that take lots of time and money.  This all frees up time for family, and yes...fun.      

I disagree.

While there may only be a small number of BIG pageants there are many localities that also put on shows. While the statement says these kinds of local events "May" continue, it definitely puts them in doubt and will probably be a chilling effect on going forward. I don't have a problem with making changes to pageants or even eliminating them if particular pageants struggle. But that can be done on an individual, administrative basis. There's no need for a massive announcement about it. Again, I believe the announcement will have a chilling effect on these kinds of activities locally as well.

I think you're largely right about this. He doesn't seem beholden to tradition, which is a good thing. But there is a cost to overturning tradition. One simply has to decide whether the benefit is worth the cost. Does anyone know how this will impact  the cultural celebrations associated with temple dedication/rededications?

19 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

From what I understand the missionary department has been evaluating pageants for a few years now and determined that they weren't really accomplishing the purpose for which they were intended, which is to spread the gospel.  In that regard it was a lot of money and a lot of time and not a very big payoff.  As people consume media in new and different ways the church needs to continue to develop ways to reach people through new media.  The pageant format had, for better or worse, run it's course.

I agree that it's not a great missionary tool but I don't really think that has been the main point for many years. I think it has been more about engaging church membership. I'm curious to see how things will progress regarding member engagement as large institutional activities continue to be reduced.

Pres. Nelson definitely seems to have a different approach than Hinkley and Monson regarding community involvement. Maybe the church will become more ecumenical and participate more with other churches. That would be a great direction IMO.

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

From what I understand the missionary department has been evaluating pageants for a few years now and determined that they weren't really accomplishing the purpose for which they were intended, which is to spread the gospel.  In that regard it was a lot of money and a lot of time and not a very big payoff.  As people consume media in new and different ways the church needs to continue to develop ways to reach people through new media.  The pageant format had, for better or worse, run it's course.

Sometimes it's not all about the missionary moments as it is to sustain those that are already in. I have a relative that was in the Nauvoo Pageant with her family this past year and it sure looked like a sustaining of their testimonies in the gospel. 

Of course a few years ago my husband and I visited Nauvoo and went to the pagaent and there were a lot of people handing out anti LDS pamphlets. And I've been to the Manti one a few years ago and it's got a lot of preaching against the church as well, and people shouting out things to people attending. Maybe this is why the church is cutting back as well? 

It's a darn shame IMO, but life is forever changing. My memories growing up are of the wonderful road shows, and they weren't always spiritual but still meaningful or hilarious! But one I loved especially was our stake putting on a play about my ancestors, the Willie and Martin handcart companies. My relatives the Mellors, and playing alongside my relative Rebecca! I hope we can still do these cultural things. 

But maybe as Scott Lloyd mentioned, a policy can also be inspiration from God. Hopefully God has something great to fill in the importance of community. 

 

[ksfisher]

4 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I agree that it's not a great missionary tool but I don't really think that has been the main point for many years.

The missionary department would, I think, disagree about it not being the point   They were the ones running the shows and they weren't accomplishing the purpose which the missionary department had for them.

 

7 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Pres. Nelson definitely seems to have a different approach than Hinkley and Monson regarding community involvement. Maybe the church will become more ecumenical and participate more with other churches. That would be a great direction IMO.

The direction that the church seems to be headed in is a global church centered on the home.

[ksfisher]

8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Sometimes it's not all about the missionary moments as it is to sustain those that are already in.

It would seem that the church has determined that the best way to strengthen individual members is by strengthening the home.  The purpose of of the church has always been to support gospel living in the home.  The recent changes are bringing this more to the forefront.

 

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

My memories growing up are of the wonderful road shows, and they weren't always spiritual but still meaningful or hilarious! But one I loved especially was our stake putting on a play about my ancestors, the Willie and Martin handcart companies.

If wards and stakes want to do something like this they can.  Nothing about the changes to church pageants prevents this.

 

11 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Hopefully God has something great to fill in the importance of community. 

This is the purpose of the local wards and branches of the church.  To provide a community of believers for the saints to be with.

[HappyJackWagon]

7 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

The missionary department would, I think, disagree about it not being the point   They were the ones running the shows and they weren't accomplishing the purpose which the missionary department had for them.

 

The direction that the church seems to be headed in is a global church centered on the home.

Do you have any reference about the missionary department running the pageants. I've never heard that. I understand they would call "missionaries" to work on pageants but I didn't realize the M Dept actually administered the pageants. Interesting.

I'm all for Home Church. Sounds great to me!

But I do think there will be consequences by reducing community aspects of church.

[ksfisher]

2 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Do you have any reference about the missionary department running the pageants. I've never heard that. I understand they would call "missionaries" to work on pageants but I didn't realize the M Dept actually administered the pageants. Interesting.

My wife works for the church and does a lot of work with the missionary department. 

 

3 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I'm all for Home Church. Sounds great to me!

I don't think we've gone this far yet.   Perhaps if we're able to do what we've been asked to do now.

[Jeanne]

Heck...my fondest memories of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints...is Roadshows...that remains a wonderful thing to me.....something else is changing all of this..the pageants and everything.  There is a change underneath the change that members are not seeing...but I think I can. 

[halconero]

I have no strong feelings either way on this. I think focusing on local pageants (ex: the Christmas story at a ward Christmas party; or the nativity float for our town's Christmas parade) is worthwhile regardless of whether we keep the big pageants or not.

[Sevenbak]

19 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm going to have to chalk this announcement as not directly from God, but a policy change. 

For all we know, the pageant preps and ever expanding pageant creep was encroaching on Cumorah's cave.    Maybe it's time to move the wagon-loads of plates, but there's those darned stage lights right on top of the burried opening...  😉

 

Maybe it is from God... 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Sevenbak

[lostindc]

20 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You’re really trying to get my back up, aren’t you? 😡 

As I’ve been at pains to argue within the last few days, a policy change can come from God as surely as anything else. 

Did leadership state the policy change came from God?

[lostindc]

5 hours ago, ksfisher said:

From what I understand the missionary department has been evaluating pageants for a few years now and determined that they weren't really accomplishing the purpose for which they were intended, which is to spread the gospel.  In that regard it was a lot of money and a lot of time and not a very big payoff.  As people consume media in new and different ways the church needs to continue to develop ways to reach people through new media.  The pageant format had, for better or worse, run it's course.

The management behind the decision is dismissive of the desires of the east coast membership.   Losing the Hill C Pageant is devastating.  I have a family member just heart broken over this decision and so are her friends.  What members near, or within, the Mormon curtain forget is that in most areas, Mormons have nearly zero presence.  The hill pageant provided a place of numbers, of unity, a place to feel normal, a place to worship together and enjoy the arts.  Church management is so extremely out of touch on this decision.  Easily, one of the dumber decisions of late.  Worse than the latest rounds of excommunications, dissolving scouts, etc.  

If this is an expense decision, then shame on the Church.  Use some of your investment dollars and support the gathering/fellowshipping of members and the arts, instead of building malls, hunting preserves, or whatever else.  

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, ksfisher said:

From what I understand the missionary department has been evaluating pageants for a few years now and determined that they weren't really accomplishing the purpose for which they were intended, which is to spread the gospel.  In that regard it was a lot of money and a lot of time and not a very big payoff.  As people consume media in new and different ways the church needs to continue to develop ways to reach people through new media.  The pageant format had, for better or worse, run it's course.

Sad, but, I have to acknowledge, probably true. 

In my younger adulthood, I attended the Mormon Miracle pageant at Manti for several years running. On each occasion, it moved me to tears. But I have to say I don’t think it instilled within me a degree of faith and conviction that was not already present. 

It may just be a matter of our expanding, global Church having outgrown certain things. I well remember in my childhood the annual All-church Dance Festivals and sports tournaments that were held. We have long since outgrown them.

I think this new First Presidency has shown itself quite willing and ready to make drastic changes and discard traditions. Not long before he was called into the First Presidency, Dallin H. Oaks indicated in a seminar that some Church visitors centers would be closed based on an assessment of their effectiveness. Also, new missionary application interviews would become much more detailed and searching. Those changes occurred shortly thereafter. 

Yesterday at tithing settlement, our bishop gave our family a copy of the new manual “‘Come Follow Me’ for Individuals and Families.” This, of course, is an integral part of the new home-based curriculum that will be implemented in the new year. I’m eager to give my best efforts to follow it earnestly, expecting that blessings will come therefrom. 

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, lostindc said:

Did leadership state the policy change came from God?

I think it goes without saying. 

You’re free to think otherwise, but your unbelief is not binding on me.