When does the spirit enter the womb?

[Rivers]

Unfortunately my wife had a miscarriage recently ☹️.  Another family member who had miscarried said that the two babies are  now “angel babies” playing in heaven together.

 This is a comforting notion but it also implies that the spirit enters the body at conception.  If that’s the case, there are millions of spirits whose entire mortal probation is spent inside the womb.

If there is no spirit at conception and we view the embryo as a spiritless clump of cells, this could be a pro-abortion argument.  

Have any past church leaders had anything to say on the subject?

 

[Calm]

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/09/i-have-a-question/can-we-put-the-names-of-our-miscarried-or-stillborn-children-on-our-family-group-records?lang=eng

I am sorry to hear of this.  How is your wife doing?  How are you doing? (Don't have to answer if you prefer not)

Let me know if you would like more references, but I think that article hits all of the ones I remember etc.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Calm

[JAHS]

So far God has not yet revealed to us the exact moment a spirit enters the body of an individual to begin a living soul. Some believe it happens at conception, some during gestation in the womb, and some believe it happens at birth with the first breath of life. According to the Church Handbook of Instructions, "It is a fact that a child has life before birth. However, there is no direct revelation on when the spirit enters the body."(page 157) 
According to Russell M. Nelson:
"It is not a question of when “meaningful life” begins or when the spirit “quickens” the body. In the biological sciences, it is known that life begins when two germ cells unite to become one cell, bringing together twenty-three chromosomes from both the father and from the mother. These chromosomes contain thousands of genes. In a marvelous process involving a combination of genetic coding by which all the basic human characteristics of the unborn person are established, a new DNA complex is formed. A continuum of growth results in a new human being. The onset of life is not a debatable issue, but a fact of science." (Russell M. Nelson, “Reverence for Life,” Ensign, May 1985, 11)  So according to Elder Nelson and biology, life begins at conception even if it is just a clump of cells; but that still does not tell us when the spirit enters the body. 
One can argue that the spirit probably does not enter a fertilized developing embryo until it has at least implanted itself in the mothers womb. It is not uncommon for an embryo to fail to implant itself, so it would therefore be illogical for the spirit to have already united with it before that happens. Also, during the time between conception and implantation, embryos can not yet be considered as individualized human life, since they still possess the potential to combine, or split. It is also possible to store embryos in a frozen state, thaw them out later, and succesfully implant them in a mother's womb. Has the spirit already entered an embryo that is being stored in a freezer at -70 C? I doubt it.
The fact that Jesus Christ announced his birth to Nephi only a night before the event, suggests that the spirit enters the body at birth. (3 Nephi 1:13) But of course Christ was a God and probably could have come and gone out of His body anytime He wanted. 
Past Church leaders have had their own opinions on this matter.
President Brigham Young said he believed that “when the mother feels life come to her infant it is the spirit entering the body.” (Journal of Discourses, 17:143.)
The message “The Origin of Man” issued by the First Presidency in 1909 stated: “The body of man enters upon its career as a tiny germ embryo, which becomes an infant, quickened at a certain stage by the spirit whose tabernacle it is, and the child, after being born, develops into a man.” (James R. Clark, comp., Messages of the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1970, 4:205.)
Elder Bruce R. McConkie, referring to “The Origin of Man,” expressed his opinion that the message “appears to bear out the concept that the eternal spirit enters the body prior to a normal birth, and therefore that stillborn children will be resurrected.” (Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966, p. 768.)
Other Church leaders have suggested that a living soul does not exist until three essential elements—the body, the spirit, and the breath of life—are all present.
The question of whether miscarried and stillborn children will be resurrected and belong to their parents in the hereafter is impossible to answer with certainty. Elder Joseph Fielding Smith seems to agree with Elder McConkie when he wrote that “there is no information given by revelation in regard to the status of stillborn children. However, I will express my personal opinion that we should have hope that these little ones will receive a resurrection and then belong to us.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:280.)
But no one has said this about miscarried fetuses. The definition of a miscarriage is the delivery of a dead fetus, before it is viable—that is, before it could have lived on its own outside the mother’s womb. It seems unlikely that God would place a spirit into a body that He knew was never going to make it to a stage where it could live on its own. But then who am I to comprehend the mind and will of God? 
Of course whether a baby is miscarried or stillborn the effects on the mother are still devastatingly tragic and emotionaly upsetting. They grieve almost the same as if it were one of their live children who died. They sometimes feel certain that the spirit of their child was with them during the pregnancy. Some feel that the spirit of a baby that went full term and was born is the same one that miscarried during an earlier pregnancy. Are these mothers right?
As far as church records are concerned, if a stillbirth takes place after the parents are sealed in the temple, those children can be identified on the record as being born in the covenant and the family may give a stillborn child a name and even hold funeral services if they desire. Miscarriages, however, are usually not recorded on family group records. (Church Handbook of Instructions, p. 157)

[rpn]

We also have the stories of John leaping with joy in Elizabeth's womb when in Mary's pregnant presence.   So at that point months before birth,  John (not yet born and months older that Jesus) was in the womb with the ability to recognize the spirit in Mary's womb.   What I take from that is that one spirit being assigned finally to one body may happen at different times during a pregnancy.   Perhaps only Jesus could come and go as a spirit like the recorded information confirms.

[bluebell]

I'm so sorry River.  That is a hard thing.

To the OP-as far as I know, the church has no doctrine no the matter.  I know of a woman who felt very strongly that she would raise the baby she miscarried in the millennium (even though the child did not actually have a body yet since it was not fully formed when the child died) and I know of another woman (through a friend) who felt very strongly that the next baby she had was the same spirit that would have come if the first baby had not miscarried.  I would never tell either one of those women that the impressions (that they clearly believe to be from the spirit) are wrong.

Personally, i think it just depends. I don't think there is any set time for when the spirit enters the body; I think it varies.  When it comes to miscarriages, I do think that a lot of the time the spirit simply comes later through a successful pregnancy but that's completely my opinion and I don't think that it's 100% that way all the time either.

[Jeanne]

I lost a child in  miscarriage...this is so interesting to me.  Heart breaks because at the time I had just given birth to my son 2 months prior...but still...but still..can this spirit be a part of me still..or sent to another place at a another time. 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Rivers said:

Unfortunately my wife had a miscarriage recently ☹️.  Another family member who had miscarried said that the two babies are  now “angel babies” playing in heaven together.

 This is a comforting notion but it also implies that the spirit enters the body at conception.  If that’s the case, there are millions of spirits whose entire mortal probation is spent inside the womb.

What is even more concerning is the frequency of spontaneous abortions, often so early in a pregnancy that the woman is unaware that she was pregnant -- resulting only in spotting.  The womb will frequently expel an imperfect zygote cell, rather than commit to a full nine months of gestation in which failure seems likely.

1 hour ago, Rivers said:

If there is no spirit at conception and we view the embryo as a spiritless clump of cells, this could be a pro-abortion argument.  

Have any past church leaders had anything to say on the subject?

Don't know what the GAs have said, but Genesis 2:7 makes it clear that one does not become a living soul until the breath of life is breathed.  That is at birth, when the baby breaths and cries for the first time.

[strappinglad]

I think the spirit can come and go as wanted/needed before birth . It may be " kicking the tires/riding the simulator " , getting a feel for the body. Pure speculation but that is what I would want to do.

[Lemuel]

One story, take this for what it's worth:

A friend of mine, whose sister was on her deathbed at age 24 (cancer) was experiencing a condition in which the veil was very thin.  The family had only 2 children, my friend and his sister.

The dying sister said she met a female angel who was part of the family, who was miscarried by the mother.  The mother never mentioned the miscarriage to either of her children--it was in the first month of pregnancy, and the mother subsequently got pregnant with the sister--she didn't really think much of the miscarriage.  But the sister said it was a real person, and part of the family.  First month of pregnancy.

Just one story.  Not official doctrine or anything.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I'm so sorry River.  That is a hard thing.

To the OP-as far as I know, the church has no doctrine no the matter.  I know of a woman who felt very strongly that she would raise the baby she miscarried in the millennium (even though the child did not actually have a body yet since it was not fully formed when the child died)

Leaving aside miscarriage, is it doctrinal that mothers who lose a baby before the age of accountability will raise that child during the Millennium? I've heard this said, but never by anyone in authority.

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

and I know of another woman (through a friend) who felt very strongly that the next baby she had was the same spirit that would have come if the first baby had not miscarried.  I would never tell either one of those women that the impressions (that they clearly believe to be from the spirit) are wrong.

Do we know that a miscarried baby's spirit will attempt birth subsequently? 

 

[JAHS]

45 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Leaving aside miscarriage, is it doctrinal that mothers who lose a baby before the age of accountability will raise that child during the Millennium? I've heard this said, but never by anyone in authority.

Joseph Smith explained,

"All men will come from the grave as they lie down, whether old or young" (TPJS, p. 199).

Joseph F. Smith also added:
"The body will come forth as it is laid to rest, for there is no growth nor development in the grave. As it is laid down, so will it arise, and changes to perfection will come by the law of restitution. But the spirit will continue to expand and develop, and the body, after the resurrection will develop to the full stature of man" (Joseph F. Smith, IE 7 [June 1904]:623-24).

We know that all children who die before the age of 8 years are saved in the Celestial Kingdom (D&C 137:10) and will therefore come forth in the morning of the first resurrection(D&C 88:97-98). If their righteous parents also come forth at that time, they will most definitely be able to raise them during the Millennium.
Joseph Smith taught that the infant child that was laid away in death would come up in the resurrection as a child; and, pointing to the mother of a lifeless child, he said to her: “You will have the joy, the pleasure, and satisfaction of nurturing this child, after its resurrection, until it reaches the full stature of its spirit.” (Gospel Doctrine, 455-56)

My wife and I  had a baby that died at 5 weeks old and I am looking forward to the time when we will have her and continue to raise her. 

45 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Do we know that a miscarried baby's spirit will attempt birth subsequently? 

I don't know of any church doctrine that answers this question. We don't even know for sure if the spirit was ever there to begin with.

[Rivers]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

 

Do we know that a miscarried baby's spirit will attempt birth subsequently? 

 

Possibly.  But wouldn’t this be reincarnation in a way?

[Rivers]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/09/i-have-a-question/can-we-put-the-names-of-our-miscarried-or-stillborn-children-on-our-family-group-records?lang=eng

I am sorry to hear of this.  How is your wife doing?  How are you doing? (Don't have to answer if you prefer not)

Let me know if you would like more references, but I think that article hits all of the ones I remember etc.

It’s not the most pleasant thing to go through but we’re fine now. We were aware of the stastical likelihood. Thanks for asking.

And thanks for the link.

 

[Rivers]

2 hours ago, Lemuel said:

One story, take this for what it's worth:

A friend of mine, whose sister was on her deathbed at age 24 (cancer) was experiencing a condition in which the veil was very thin.  The family had only 2 children, my friend and his sister.

The dying sister said she met a female angel who was part of the family, who was miscarried by the mother.  The mother never mentioned the miscarriage to either of her children--it was in the first month of pregnancy, and the mother subsequently got pregnant with the sister--she didn't really think much of the miscarriage.  But the sister said it was a real person, and part of the family.  First month of pregnancy.

Just one story.  Not official doctrine or anything.

That’s a neat story.  What I find interesting is the idea that one’s mortal probation could be spent exclusively in the womb and that being being all he/she requires.  

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Rivers said:

Unfortunately my wife had a miscarriage recently ☹️.  Another family member who had miscarried said that the two babies are  now “angel babies” playing in heaven together.

 This is a comforting notion but it also implies that the spirit enters the body at conception.  If that’s the case, there are millions of spirits whose entire mortal probation is spent inside the womb.

If there is no spirit at conception and we view the embryo as a spiritless clump of cells, this could be a pro-abortion argument.  

Have any past church leaders had anything to say on the subject?

 

So sorry, others have posted answers, I just wanted to say how sorry I am. My wife and I lost our first child 42+ years ago, and it can still be difficult to process. Wondering who, he or she would have been, and been like? God bless you both. 

[BonhoefferFan]

20 hours ago, strappinglad said:

I think the spirit can come and go as wanted/needed before birth . It may be " kicking the tires/riding the simulator " , getting a feel for the body. Pure speculation but that is what I would want to do.

I kind of like that idea.  Never heard it before, but it seems like a nice option.

 

[Stargazer]

19 hours ago, Rivers said:

Possibly.  But wouldn’t this be reincarnation in a way?

What does "reincarnation" mean?  It means different things to different cultures and people.  

Reincarnation in the sense that Hinduism understands it is clearly not Christian gospel, but when you consider Christian resurrection, it is a form of reincarnation: the spirit which used to be in a physical body, died, and then re-enters a physical body.  Lazarus was reincarnated, in a sense.  His spirit left his body, and then Jesus restored it to his body, a body that was healthy.  If a baby's spirit returns to a physical body in the Millennium (as @Rivers spoke of), then that would seem also to be reincarnation and not resurrection.  This is not much different from a miscarried baby's spirit reincarnating into a new mortal physical body.  I am not saying that this is doctrinally correct, and it may not be doctrinal at all.  But it isn't illogical.

[mfbukowski]

I answered my own question and it was incorrect. So I erased the post.

Edited September 4, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I answered my own question and it was incorrect. So I erased the post.

😋Yo...I do this when I talk to myself...nevermind.

[The Nehor]

On 9/3/2018 at 6:52 PM, Rivers said:

That’s a neat story.  What I find interesting is the idea that one’s mortal probation could be spent exclusively in the womb and that being being all he/she requires.  

I admit to jealousy of those who can skip most of this life.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I admit to jealousy of those who can skip most of this life.

Hits me that way sometimes.

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I admit to jealousy of those who can skip most of this life.

Mate, you're doing it wrong ...

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Mate, you're doing it wrong ...

Maybe, I have just not had a particularly happy life.

Edited September 5, 2018 by The Nehor

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Maybe, I have just not had a particularly happy life.

You need to come hang out with me. We'll go adventuring.

[Jeanne]

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I admit to jealousy of those who can skip most of this life.

Oh...I do too..  when losing so many in my years on earth..I have wanted and rather jealous that they understand things..that I am left behind.  A lot of emotions for which my thread on Social Hall was relevant.  For some reason I feel lesser than or left behind and yet live in a present day to day life of observing and enjoyment.  The question always is...what am I to learn from all of this..that will take me to their arms and be proud of who I am ..or still may become.