A constant environment of change, what to do?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I touched on this,a bit before, but now wish to share more. I have lived in the same home for 4+ years, but have been a member for four years. I don't know many people, and have become a ghost of a type. Not because I do not attend, but for other reasons. This last Sunday I attend for the first time in a while, due to heart problems, and heat procedures. My Elders Quorum President, who is a good man, sat in front of me in Sacrament meeting, and after did not say hello, or shake my hand, despite looking me in the eye.. My Bishop, walked right by me, and did not speak to me, or shake my hand, and he too is a very good mam. I also know they have much on their minds, but I saw then engage, and shake the hands of many, very many. The only friend who spoke to me, had no idea I had been gone, or that I had been in the hospital. 

I ask a question, to all who wish to respond. Should I go back to my old Ward, it is only 10-15 miles away?  My wife, nor I have any callings, in fact all callings have been given to those who the Bishop knows the most, those who despite different boundaries, have been in each. My wife and I have been going to the same building, but not in every Ward. So, we will not be missed, at all. Well my wife might, many more speak to her, and seldom any to myself. I think so think I am going inactive, and don't know what to say. Either way, I miss many of my old friends, those who remained in my old Ward, and those who via boundary changes are meeting there now. So would it matter, where I go, since my wife nor I have any callings? I apologize if this is a bit of overlap of my previous thread, but I am asking different questions, and the other thread starting become a debate over Facebook. So hopefully this thread will remain on my intended focus. I do not wish to become inactive, but my wife feels unwelcome, and as I said, I feel like a ghost. 

 

 

[Walden]

That sounds lonely....have you thought of going to the bishop and directly requesting a calling? 

[Tacenda]

14 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I touched on this,a bit before, but now wish to share more. I have lived in the same home for 4+ years, but have been a member for four years. I don't know many people, and have become a ghost of a type. Not because I do not attend, but for other reasons. This last Sunday I attend for the first time in a while, due to heart problems, and heat procedures. My Elders Quorum President, who is a good man, sat in front of me in Sacrament meeting, and after did not say hello, or shake my hand, despite looking me in the eye.. My Bishop, walked right by me, and did not speak to me, or shake my hand, and he too is a very good mam. I also know they have much on their minds, but I saw then engage, and shake the hands of many, very many. The only friend who spoke to me, had no idea I had been gone, or that I had been in the hospital. 

I ask a question, to all who wish to respond. Should I go back to my old Ward, it is only 10-15 miles away?  My wife, nor I have any callings, in fact all callings have been given to those who the Bishop knows the most, those who despite different boundaries, have been in each. My wife and I have been going to the same building, but not in every Ward. So, we will not be missed, at all. Well my wife might, many more speak to her, and seldom any to myself. I think so think I am going inactive, and don't know what to say. Either way, I miss many of my old friends, those who remained in my old Ward, and those who via boundary changes are meeting there now. So would it matter, where I go, since my wife nor I have any callings? I apologize if this is a bit of overlap of my previous thread, but I am asking different questions, and the other thread starting become a debate over Facebook. So hopefully this thread will remain on my intended focus. I do not wish to become inactive, but my wife feels unwelcome, and as I said, I feel like a ghost. 

 

 

That's exactly how my experience was in my old ward before moving. It was after my inactivity. When I would show up occasionally, I felt like a ghost as well. It's such a difficult situation. I think you should attend wherever you want, but I know that goes against the rules somewhat and that we are to go to our own wards. But maybe you could speak to the bishop and let him know of the situation so they can be aware of where you will be on Sundays. Or maybe he needs to hear how you were treated, it may have just been a fluke, but when you say they looked right at you it is hard to swallow any excuse, I know. Also, I feel members of the church are really just bodies in church anymore and going through the motions, they seem like they are a lot different than in the past. They are enduring life, I'm thinking there is a lot going on in each of their lives and church isn't always easy to be sometimes. But I'm sorry you went through that.

[jkwilliams]

Obviously, the easy answer is to go where you feel at home and welcome. I don't know what the issue is with your new ward, but maybe you can make an effort to be the one who says hello and shakes people's hands. That way, you are the one in charge of how much social interaction you get with fellow ward members. I don't know, just thinking off the top of my head. I'm naturally pretty outgoing, so it would be out of character for me to wait for someone else to extend the hand of friendship or welcome, but I understand that you are not me. 

So, I propose you do a little experiment: this Sunday, go out of your way to say hello to other ward members, especially those you don't know well. Then see what happens. 

[ksfisher]

30 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

My Bishop, walked right by me, and did not speak to me, or shake my hand, and he too is a very good mam. I also know they have much on their minds, but I saw then engage, and shake the hands of many, very many. 

I'm a counselor in my wards bishopric.  There are people every week who I try to shake hands with and say hello to, but I've found out that there just isn't enough to get to them all.  The bishop is only one person he can't get to everyone who needs a hello.  Same with the counselors in the bishopric.

[HappyJackWagon]

Sorry, Bill. This sounds lonely and I totally get why you would want to attend somewhere else. Back in my orthodox days I would have stuck it out but I would have spoken to the bishop. I'd lay my cards on the table and tell him what I was thinking and why. My guess is he would be surprised by the way you feel. It's not only hard to know everyone in a large ward but it's even harder to treat everyone the same. He probably doesn't recognize how inhospitable the ward is.

Now, I'd simply go where I feel welcome, which some days is the Methodist church. I think it would be a shame to sacrifice your spiritual journey because you think you are required to journey in one very narrow way in a ward that isn't welcoming or friendly. Your first loyalty should be to your spiritual journey, not a ward boundary. The only issue you'll have by going to a different ward is renewing a temple recommend, but then again, your bishop may not even know you haven't been there.

[pogi]

I am in agreement with Walden and jk.  I think the bishop and EQ president would be more then happy to offer support, fellowship, and a calling if they better understood what you were experiencing and going through.  In a perfect world, we would all receive excellent fellowship, but that has not always been my experience either.  Don't be afraid to share your experiences with them.  Otherwise, it is like going to a doctor and expecting them to help you without explaining your symptoms to them first. 

[Gray]

Personally I would go where you feel happiest and most engaged.

[rpn]

This is the kind of thing that First Sunday councils can and should address.   Suggest to your EQP and RSP that on one sunday you talk about what people who are feeling lonely at church can/should consider in handling the feeling, and people who fit in should consider in including others.

  I personally think that the easiest way to deal with it is go to church solely to be where God wants you to be, doing what He wants you to be doing.  And look for everyone who doesn't seem very included, making sure that you shake that hand, look into that face, remember the name or something else about them.

[mnn727]

Theres an old saying "to have a friend you have to be a friend" meaning you can reach out to people too.

Having said that, we were in one Ward a number of years back that was the same, nobody ever said hardly anything to us, this Ward took their no socializing in the Chapel (a BIG mistake IMHO) to extremes -  We went inactive for a while ( 6 months maybe) and eventually bought a house (we were in an apt.), our main requirement for the new house was that it had to be in a different Ward.

 

Should you attend your old Ward? These days I would say yes.  Back when we faced our issue, I wish we had tried a different Ward - there were 2 buildings closer to our apartment than the building we were assigned to.

Edited August 15, 2018 by mnn727

[smac97]

4 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I touched on this,a bit before, but now wish to share more. I have lived in the same home for 4+ years, but have been a member for four years. I don't know many people, and have become a ghost of a type. Not because I do not attend, but for other reasons. This last Sunday I attend for the first time in a while, due to heart problems, and heat procedures. My Elders Quorum President, who is a good man, sat in front of me in Sacrament meeting, and after did not say hello, or shake my hand, despite looking me in the eye.. My Bishop, walked right by me, and did not speak to me, or shake my hand, and he too is a very good mam. I also know they have much on their minds, but I saw then engage, and shake the hands of many, very many. The only friend who spoke to me, had no idea I had been gone, or that I had been in the hospital. 

I had a friend who went through something similar.  He experienced what he felt was a measure of inattention/neglect from the bishop in a time of need (he had a parent that was dying).  His solution was to go to the bishop and, with patience and kindness and candor, express his feelings.  The bishop immediately apologized, and thereafter was much more attentive.

4 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I ask a question, to all who wish to respond. Should I go back to my old Ward, it is only 10-15 miles away?  My wife, nor I have any callings, in fact all callings have been given to those who the Bishop knows the most, those who despite different boundaries, have been in each. My wife and I have been going to the same building, but not in every Ward. So, we will not be missed, at all. Well my wife might, many more speak to her, and seldom any to myself. I think so think I am going inactive, and don't know what to say. Either way, I miss many of my old friends, those who remained in my old Ward, and those who via boundary changes are meeting there now. So would it matter, where I go, since my wife nor I have any callings? I apologize if this is a bit of overlap of my previous thread, but I am asking different questions, and the other thread starting become a debate over Facebook. So hopefully this thread will remain on my intended focus. I do not wish to become inactive, but my wife feels unwelcome, and as I said, I feel like a ghost. 

I am sorry to hear about your struggle.  I encourage you to share these thoughts with your bishop, and perhaps your wife could share her thoughts with the bishop also (and perhaps the Relief Society President as well).

Sometimes our leaders need a nudge.

Thanks,

-Smac

[CV75]

4 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I touched on this,a bit before, but now wish to share more. I have lived in the same home for 4+ years, but have been a member for four years. I don't know many people, and have become a ghost of a type. Not because I do not attend, but for other reasons. This last Sunday I attend for the first time in a while, due to heart problems, and heat procedures. My Elders Quorum President, who is a good man, sat in front of me in Sacrament meeting, and after did not say hello, or shake my hand, despite looking me in the eye.. My Bishop, walked right by me, and did not speak to me, or shake my hand, and he too is a very good mam. I also know they have much on their minds, but I saw then engage, and shake the hands of many, very many. The only friend who spoke to me, had no idea I had been gone, or that I had been in the hospital. 

I ask a question, to all who wish to respond. Should I go back to my old Ward, it is only 10-15 miles away?  My wife, nor I have any callings, in fact all callings have been given to those who the Bishop knows the most, those who despite different boundaries, have been in each. My wife and I have been going to the same building, but not in every Ward. So, we will not be missed, at all. Well my wife might, many more speak to her, and seldom any to myself. I think so think I am going inactive, and don't know what to say. Either way, I miss many of my old friends, those who remained in my old Ward, and those who via boundary changes are meeting there now. So would it matter, where I go, since my wife nor I have any callings? I apologize if this is a bit of overlap of my previous thread, but I am asking different questions, and the other thread starting become a debate over Facebook. So hopefully this thread will remain on my intended focus. I do not wish to become inactive, but my wife feels unwelcome, and as I said, I feel like a ghost.

I take our geographic unit assignments as reflective of, and as precious as, the inheritances the Lord gave Israel. This method is how the Lord organizes His people in modern times. Exceptions can be made by the stake/district president of course, but i would first have a heart-to-heart with your bishop or ministering brothers and sisters.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Walden said:

That sounds lonely....have you thought of going to the bishop and directly requesting a calling? 

No, having been in a Bishopric for many years, and being a High Group Leadear for a combined 10+ years. Then thankfully 5+ years teaching Gospel Doctrine, and 5 otherr years in Gospel Essentials, leading  to at least, 11 years, as teaching is which has always been my best and first love. When I broke my back, the thing I missed most was teaching, at a local community college at nigh for 25 years. A few months  ago my Bishop kneeled by the bench I was sitting on, he did this  knowing my difficulty in standing, and then he asked, "when was the last time you spoke in Sacrament", I told him it was 4+ years at least. My response  must have put him off on the idea of me speaking, as that day we have not spoken since, some have spoken two, or three times. Anyway we have shaken hands a few times, but only when I have extended my hand, but never spoken, other than saying hello. Haven said that, calling attention to himself, and the President Quorum's behavior, (or lacked thereof) and lack of fellowship will only seem like I am an apostate, and not supporting my leaders. I would prefer keeping my temple recommend, and not being labeled as being a trouble maker, and a trouble maker. So, the long way around, no I have not spoken to the Bishop. Just two days ago, he walked within a foot of me, made eye contact, then quickly turned away and exited the chapel, unwilling to even shake my hand. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

I am in agreement with Walden and jk.  I think the bishop and EQ president would be more then happy to offer support, fellowship, and a calling if they better understood what you were experiencing and going through.  In a perfect world, we would all receive excellent fellowship, but that has not always been my experience either.  Don't be afraid to share your experiences with them.  Otherwise, it is like going to a doctor and expecting them to help you without explaining your symptoms to them first. 

As I before stated, I do not need, nor do I wish to be the center of attention. All this is just an observation, my wife sometimes  on the other hand feels unwelcome, thus my concern. In our old Ward, even when visiting we are surrounded with love and attention, if we like it or not. 

 

[Tacenda]

29 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

No, having been in a Bishopric for many years, and being a High Group Leadear for a combined 10+ years. Then thankfully 5+ years teaching Gospel Doctrine, and 5 otherr years in Gospel Essentials, leading  to at least, 11 years, as teaching is which has always been my best and first love. When I broke my back, the thing I missed most was teaching, at a local community college at nigh for 25 years. A few months  ago my Bishop kneeled by the bench I was sitting on, he did this  knowing my difficulty in standing, and then he asked, "when was the last time you spoke in Sacrament", I told him it was 4+ years at least. My response  must have put him off on the idea of me speaking, as that day we have not spoken since, some have spoken two, or three times. Anyway we have shaken hands a few times, but only when I have extended my hand, but never spoken, other than saying hello. Haven said that, calling attention to himself, and the President Quorum's behavior, (or lacked thereof) and lack of fellowship will only seem like I am an apostate, and not supporting my leaders. I would prefer keeping my temple recommend, and not being labeled as being a trouble maker, and a trouble maker. So, the long way around, no I have not spoken to the Bishop. Just two days ago, he walked within a foot of me, made eye contact, then quickly turned away and exited the chapel, unwilling to even shake my hand. 

Blown away about this. I remember having eye to eye contact with two sisters in my old ward, one when thanking her for a great lesson after RS and another in the hall when I said hello. Both of them didn't say a word. I kept thinking I must be going crazy. Is that your reaction at all? I'm so sorry this has happened. It's definitely not you. And if you're worried about getting a temple recommend taken away, pity the church leader that would do that, or the doctrine or policy that would have a bishop do that. You are no way near apostasy. But for sure I would speak with the bishop now. He needs to know and you do because this will only get worse if you don't, but I'm not you.

It was sure difficult to not get a single phone call or visit by my RS president, when I went inactive, and she was once my visiting teacher. And I knew the protocol of making sure to check on the inactives. Since I was RS secretary and had to report those sisters that didn't come to RS at all in any given month. 

Edited August 15, 2018 by Tacenda

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I take our geographic unit assignments as reflective of, and as precious as, the inheritances the Lord gave Israel. This method is how the Lord organizes His people in modern times. Exceptions can be made by the stake/district president of course, but i would first have a heart-to-heart with your bishop or ministering brothers and sisters.

OK, I am glad you like it, our Ward boundaries changed three times in one year, and it is very large area, why out in the country for the most part. 

[HappyJackWagon]

2 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

OK, I am glad you like it, our Ward boundaries changed three times in one year, and it is very large area, why out in the country for the most part. 

Excessive boundary changes are a pet peeve of mine as they tend to destroy any specialness or community in a ward.  3 times in 1 year is definitely excessive IMO.

In my ward, boundaries have changes once every year since I was released as bishop. So even though I'm in the same ward, it feels foreign. We had focused a lot on building a real community within our ward and I think we succeeded to a large degree. But all of that was destroyed with the first major boundary change. People tried to regroup and keep it going, until the next boundary change. Then there was another. Eventually, ward members just came to expect for things to change regularly so there wasn't much use in trying to build a special community. Now members pretty much show up to church on Sunday and that's it. Youth activities are almost non-existent because no one bothers to come any more.

I guess, on the up-side, if you just wait it out a couple of more months you'll probably have another boundary change and maybe that will help to make things better for you  Sorry it's been rough .

[Guest]

4 hours ago, rpn said:

This is the kind of thing that First Sunday councils can and should address.   Suggest to your EQP and RSP that on one sunday you talk about what people who are feeling lonely at church can/should consider in handling the feeling, and people who fit in should consider in including others.

  I personally think that the easiest way to deal with it is go to church solely to be where God wants you to be, doing what He wants you to be doing.  And look for everyone who doesn't seem very included, making sure that you shake that hand, look into that face, remember the name or something else about them.

It is the olny reason I go, because God wants me to be there. But my dear wife does notice such things, and is more hurt on my account, as she is a good woman, and very outgoing. I think that possibly other have noticed my absence, and are afraid to speak, or ask why I have been gone. Some or all, may be afraid of knowing and hearing the reason, it case it is because I no longer believe. Of course, I am a believer and sickness is the only reason, and due to my many condutions, I will probably be away more and more in the future, which will add to speculation, and the fear of members and leaders to ask. Sometimes I think that people fear inactivity, as if it is contagious. Anyway, I am just asking questions, and sharing my observations. I am not (to quote the song), "...that's me in the conner, loosing  my religion".   

 

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Blown away about this. I remember having eye to eye contact with two sisters my old ward, one when thanking her for a great lesson after RS and another in the hall when I said hello. Both of them didn't say a word. I kept thinking I must be going crazy. Is that your reaction at all? I'm so sorry this has happened. It's definitely not you. And if you're worried about getting a temple recommend taken away, pity the church leader that would do that, or the doctrine or policy that would have a bishop do that. You are no way near apostasy. But for sure I would speak with the bishop now. He needs to know and you do because this will only get worse if you don't.

It was sure difficult to not get a single phone call or visit by my RS president, when I went inactive, and she was once my visiting teacher. And I knew the protocol of making sure to check on the inactives. Since I was RS secretary and had to report those sisters that didn't come to RS at all in any given month. 

Temple recommends ask questions about your Sacrament and Priesthood attendance, I was just guessing that means the Ward you are assigned too. My comment was not based on my current situation, and would never belittle any Bishop. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I am sure my Bishop who has not known me long, as we were rolled into his Ward with recent changes, and for sure very busy, just overlooked me. I did not, nor would I ever imply that these are not good men who are fully engaged, maybe overworked in their duties. 

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, mnn727 said:

Theres an old saying "to have a friend you have to be a friend" meaning you can reach out to people too.

Yes, it probably is my fault. 

Edited August 16, 2018 by Bill "Papa" Lee

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Yea, it probably is my fault. 

It's not your fault, Bill. But you can choose not to accept the situation passively and instead reach out. 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

As I before stated, I do not need, nor do I wish to be the center of attention. All this is just an observation, my wife sometimes  on the other hand feels unwelcome, thus my concern. In our old Ward, even when visiting we are surrounded with love and attention, if we like it or not. 

Then do it for your wife.

But I sense that this is not all about your wife  (correct me if I'm wrong).  It sounded to me like you were expressing personal concerns about feeling like a ghost and not having a calling.  I think those both can be remedied by reaching out.  I totally understand not wanting to be the center of attention, but I also understand not wanting to feel like a ghost.  I think that simply asking for a calling will go a long way in helping you not feel like a ghost.  It will help you rub shoulders with others.  Being active in ministering, and reaching out and fellowshiping others in the ward can also help.  One thing that I have noticed from personal experience in the church - if you feel like a ghost in a ward, you are probably not alone.  There are likely others in your ward who need fellowship just like you.  Seek them out and you will solve your woes and theirs.

Sending my cyber love and fellowship to a brother in need.  I know that some wards are socially more difficult then others, and I feel for ya - but my mother always taught me to "bloom where you are planted."  I think that is good advice most of the time. 

Edited August 15, 2018 by pogi

[rongo]

Before choosing to go to another ward, please at least give them the chance to repent and do better. They may be tone-deaf or ignorant, but they deserve the chance to make it right and do better. 

I would let the bishopric know what your experience has been, and what you are thinking about doing and why. Give them a chance to fix it. 

If nothing changes or gets awkward (people can react in counter-productive ways, especially when they're defensive), then you did what you could to take your brother between thyself and him, and you gave him a chance. In that case, I would support you doing what you need to do.

[carbon dioxide]

I try my best to be as stealth as possible at church.  Keeps me out of trouble.  Another good way to stay out of trouble is do not wear a suit if you are a guy.  Wear nice clothes but don't wear a suit.  If you wear a suit, it invites callings that you might rather not want. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

I try my best to be as stealth as possible at church.  Keeps me out of trouble.  Another good way to stay out of trouble is do not wear a suit if you are a guy.  Wear nice clothes but don't wear a suit.  If you wear a suit, it invites callings that you might rather not want. 

That may be difficult for a ex-Army type who is always dressed well. Also, I remember once when a teenager, I tried slipping out of the house in jeans and a shirt. My grandmother (my Nanny) said to me, "where are you going"? My reply was, I am going to Church, she then said, "so you are not going to Theron's or Mark's house (my best friends), so I said, I am going to Church. She said, "now what do we call Church"? I sheepishly answered, "the Lord's house". She then replied, "that is right, now go and dress like it"! So, to this day, I fear she might be watching from heaven above, and would love to avoid that conversation again.