Former Bishop Hunger Strike for Youth Interview Policy Change

[Tacenda]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Another thing occurred to me. There was a little girl in Sister Gui’s class this year that had some serious problems. If she didn’t get exactly what she wanted when she wanted it, she would start screaming and run around the room throwing chairs over, ripping things off the walls, trying to hit kids, scattering school supplies and books, hiding under desks, running out of the room and out of the school, wreaking general havoc. Long story short...after many, many, many meetings and observations by admin, psychs, counselors, and specialists, it was decided that Sister Gui would stand by her desk with a packet of stars and a paper with a grid. Anytime the girl did anything positive, my wife was supposed to immediately reward her with a star on her grid and compliment her, even for some minor action like putting down a pencil instead of throwing it across the room. 5 stars earned some free time with her choice of toys. Picture that...and the 18 other kids in the room. Eventually, a para-educator was hired as a one-on-one nanny for the girl. Her job was to give the stars, chase and corner her when she started running (she had the training that was required to touch or restrain a child, Sister Gui did not have it, so she could not touch the girl), sit with her at lunch, take her to the bathroom, etc.

Over the course of the year, this poor little girl was in the worlds of 12 adults besides her mother and grandmother  - the teacher, principal, assistant principal, school nurse and 3 office staff, school counselor, school psychologist, district behavior specialist, her doctor, and the para-professional. At the end of the year, she had made little, if any, progress towards being able to function normally around peers, but she had become quite adept at manipulating adults. No one was served well. 

I’m curious why you asked the question.

Wow, you may have just described my new job!  I'm a Safety Intervention Specialist come August, and luckily I get some training. I worry for this child and how the school handled it. I too will have to be in the classroom, go to recess, lunch and prep time with a student that needs it.

The little girl may be manipulating, but she may have been raised in a totally different environment then the others. I'm reading a book that describes it, called "Help for Billy", (they mention in the book that "Billy" is neutral for both females and males) that has given me some insight but just started reading. The book says one reason for the student's outbreak is most likely stemming from trauma. These individuals have been traumatized since birth and even in the womb. 

And in a post before this you mention cell phones shouldn't be given to young children, totally agree. My daughter lets my 8 year old grandson have a phone that he plays games on like "Fortnight" but it's on the internet, scares me to death. I've mentioned my worries to her, but don't know if she'll listen.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Wow, you may have just described my new job!  I'm a Safety Intervention Specialist come August, and luckily I get some training. I worry for this child and how the school handled it. I too will have to be in the classroom, go to recess, lunch and prep time with a student that needs it.

The little girl may be manipulating, but she may have been raised in a totally different environment then the others. I'm reading a book that describes it, called "Help for Billy", (they mention in the book that "Billy" is neutral for both females and males) that has given me some insight but just started reading. The book says one reason for the student's outbreak is most likely stemming from trauma. These individuals have been traumatized since birth and even in the womb. 

And in a post before this you mention cell phones shouldn't be given to young children, totally agree. My daughter lets my 8 year old grandson have a phone that he plays games on like "Fortnight" but it's on the internet, scares me to death. I've mentioned my worries to her, but don't know if she'll listen.

Trauma, yes. But there is more, too.Sister Gui has tons of educational toys and manipulative in her room, and the kids get free time during the day to play with them, in the beginning o& the year One of her little boys would sit on the floor and cry during play time.....because he wanted his screen and didn’t like toys. Last year seemed to be a pivotal time, at least where we live. The kindergarten teachers district-wide reported many more such things in their classes, vastly increased over previous years, many with 4 or 5 troubled kids in their room. Bless you on your new job!!

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Trauma, yes. But there is more, too.Sister Gui has tons of educational toys and manipulative in her room, and the kids get free time during the day to play with them, in the beginning o& the year One of her little boys would sit on the floor and cry during play time.....because he wanted his screen and didn’t like toys. Last year seemed to be a pivotal time, at least where we live. The kindergarten teachers district-wide reported many more such things in their classes, vastly increased over previous years, many with 4 or 5 troubled kids in their room. Bless you on your new job!!

I've sub'd many times in Kindergarten and I do love it. Except only when I have to do it periodically, your wife is awesome to me, I know the energy that is needed to take care of a classroom of 5 year olds by yourself. It's fun to see their personalities, but have sub'd where a student had someone there if he needed a break, and I as a sub was very grateful, since it just takes one child to disrupt an entire class and almost stops any learning from happening. Thanks for the blessing, I'll need it! And God bless your wife! I like her already! And you as well, it's not easy teaching in schools these days, did you say you taught 9th grade? Wow, is all I got to say! Thanks to all the teachers out there!

Edited August 6, 2018 by Tacenda

[Bernard Gui]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I've sub'd many times in Kindergarten and I do love it. Except only when I have to do it periodically, your wife is awesome to me, I know the energy that is needed to take care of a classroom of 5 year olds by yourself. It's fun to see their personalities, but have sub'd where a student had someone there if he needed a break, and I as a sub was very grateful, since it just takes one child to disrupt an entire class and almost stops any learning from happening. Thanks for the blessing, I'll need it! And God bless your wife! I like her already! And you as well, it's not easy teaching in schools these days, did you say you taught 9th grade? Wow, is all I got to say! Thanks to all the teachers out there!

I taught orchestra (4-12), Senior English, and Spanish (9-10). Sister Gui is a gifted teacher. You two would get along handsomely.

[Tacenda]

Just saw this on my FB feed. A few years ago I remember being in a 5th Sunday RS/PH meeting with all of the adults of the ward, even those that usually teach in primary and YM/YW. The topic was pornography and the youth. I remember raising my hand and telling the bishop, he was directing the meeting, that I was concerned that we are speaking too much about it, and will it bring up things that will get a youth started, let alone stopping. The bishop pretty much dismissed my comment as being a crazy thought. But I stand by what I said. Here is an interview from the BBC. And in it the gentlemen explains what happened to him when asked questions during a worthiness interview when he was twelve something similar to my thoughts that day. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Yric7CywYYd4f1CLC2NlYuO0pbDbiAcl/view

[Rock_N_Roll]

Anyone know what petition they are referring to in this BBC interview?

[Calm]

I am assuming it is the Protect The Children one.  Google that and sam young should pull it up.

[Tacenda]

https://kutv.com/news/local/hunger-strike-puts-more-scrutiny-on-mormon-youth-interviews

KUTV posted the recent press conference with Sam Young and during it Sam brings up that even the question, "Do you live the law of Chastity?", is a sex question, and how he explained it, I agree. This portions starts at about the 16:00 mark. The reporter asked him about that and then said what has been brought up on here, what if a child is being abused and needs to discuss it, how are they going to become aware of these situations without the interviews? Well Sam answered he agrees that we need to be available if a child needs to tell someone, but that is what training can do for each and every member of the church. He told the reporter there is what is called "bystander training". Sounds like a good idea to me Sam!! 

He also mentions how the bishops are in a position of being sued, not the "paid" church leaders like the church presidency. Bishops are vulnerable, they are who deals with everyday situations in the church world. 

Watch the whole thing, he has said some things that have convinced me completely now, where before I was on the fence thinking someone that wanted to confess something should be able to. I believe that can still happen. But a bishop hasn't been trained to be able to ask any kind of sexual question to the youth as young as even 8 yrs. old.  

[blueglass]

Brigham Young, JoD, November 9, 1856.

"I do not want to know anything about the sins of this people, at least no more than I am obliged to. If persons lose confidence in themselves, it takes away the strength, faith and confidence that others have in them; it leaves a space that we call weakness. If you have committed a sin that no other person on the earth knows of, and which harms no other one, you have done a wrong and sinned against your God, but keep that within your own bosom, and seek to God and confess there, and get pardon for your sin.

If children have sinned against their parents, or husbands against their wives, or wives against their husbands, let them confess their faults one to another and forgive each other, and there let the confession stop; and then let them ask pardon from their God. Confess your sins to whoever you have sinned against, and let it stop there. If you have committed a sin against the community, confess to them. If you have sinned in your family, confess there. Confess your sins, iniquities, and follies, where that confession belongs, and learn to classify your actions."

[HappyJackWagon]

My wife works for our local school district and every year she goes through sxual abuse training with every other school employee. One slide from her training this morning stated... (the bold is mine)

Quote

It is unacceptable for children to be with an adult alone behind closed doors that is not their parents. This includes teachers, administrators, and pastors!!

This seems to be the socially acceptable/responsible approach to working with kids and youth. This isn't even bringing up the possibility of discussing sxual topics. I think most people agree with this approach, but not the church.

I often hear the excuse that if bishops didn't meet with a child/youth alone behind closed doors, bishops would never be able to uncover parental abuse. Yet I wonder how often bishops go through sxual abuse training. In my 5 years I had 1 meeting in which we watched a 15 minute video. Hardly to the standard of even a school district and I think we should be able to expect more from the church. Does anyone know if the level of training has increased significantly in the last couple of years?

Edited August 13, 2018 by HappyJackWagon

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

My wife works for our local school district and every year she goes through sxual abuse training with every other school employee. One slide from her training this morning stated... (the bold is mine)

This seems to be the socially acceptable/responsible approach to working with kids and youth. This isn't even bringing up the possibility of discussing sxual topics. I think most people agree with this approach, but not the church.

I often hear the excuse that if bishops didn't meet with a child/youth alone behind closed doors, bishops would never be able to uncover parental abuse. Yet I wonder how often bishops go through sxual abuse training. In my 5 years I had 1 meeting in which we watched a 15 minute video. Hardly to the standard of even a school district and I think we should be able to expect more from the church. Does anyone know if the level of training has increased significantly in the last couple of years?

Totally agree.  I just listened to the podcast that Mormon Stories did with Sam Young that was just released today, and I was really impressed.  One thing they mentioned was that the LDS church is the only church that has these kinds of interviews.  I don't know if this is completely accurate, but I wouldn't be surprised, especially if we aren't the only church of this size to have such a formal practice in place.   I just can't imagine how the church can continue this practice in our modern climate.  It is too big of a risk for the kids, too big a risk for the church institutionally, and too big a risk for the lay leaders who are volunteering their time to serve. 

This needs to end now.  

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/sam-young-hunger-strike/

 

 

Edited August 13, 2018 by hope_for_things

[HappyJackWagon]

12 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Totally agree.  I just listened to the podcast that Mormon Stories did with Sam Young that was just released today, and I was really impressed.  One thing they mentioned was that the LDS church is the only church that has these kinds of interviews.  I don't know if this is completely accurate, but I wouldn't be surprised, especially if we aren't the only church of this size to have such a formal practice in place.   I just can't imagine how the church can continue this practice in our modern climate.  It is too big of a risk for the kids, too big a risk for the church institutionally, and too big a risk for the lay leaders who are volunteering their time to serve. 

This needs to end now.  

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/sam-young-hunger-strike/

 

 

And frankly, it's a huge risk to the church as it would be wide open to lawsuits if/when anything bad happens. Leaders wouldn't be able to claim ignorance when every other organization has policies in place to protect children. It seems to me it would be fairly easy to claim negligence on the part of the church for not even implementing standard policies of youth protection.

[hope_for_things]

36 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

And frankly, it's a huge risk to the church as it would be wide open to lawsuits if/when anything bad happens. Leaders wouldn't be able to claim ignorance when every other organization has policies in place to protect children. It seems to me it would be fairly easy to claim negligence on the part of the church for not even implementing standard policies of youth protection.

Yep.  I think unfortunately you have another strong current that church leaders are concerned about that is making them hesitant to implement any significant reforms here.  It goes back to the bubble chart that was leaked, the big bubble with pornography.  The church implemented more detailed interview questions that require more probing of prospective missionaries on issues related to sexual purity.  This has got to be a difficult point of controversy within the church.  

They want to maintain what they perceive as strong values around sexual behavior, yet they have things like this protect the children initiative or the LoveLoud concert and on one hand they want to embrace these movements, but they worry that making real changes on these issues will erode moral foundations.  

Unfortunately, the church really doesn't have an articulated and defined sexual ethic.  Its really just a hodgepodge of religious tradition and cultural mores.  If I were a church leader with all these pressures, I would look at this as an opportunity to define the church's path forward and come up with a sexual ethic that can move the church forward into the future.  

[HappyJackWagon]

8 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Yep.  I think unfortunately you have another strong current that church leaders are concerned about that is making them hesitant to implement any significant reforms here.  It goes back to the bubble chart that was leaked, the big bubble with pornography.  The church implemented more detailed interview questions that require more probing of prospective missionaries on issues related to sexual purity.  This has got to be a difficult point of controversy within the church.  

They want to maintain what they perceive as strong values around sexual behavior, yet they have things like this protect the children initiative or the LoveLoud concert and on one hand they want to embrace these movements, but they worry that making real changes on these issues will erode moral foundations.  

Unfortunately, the church really doesn't have an articulated and defined sexual ethic.  Its really just a hodgepodge of religious tradition and cultural mores.  If I were a church leader with all these pressures, I would look at this as an opportunity to define the church's path forward and come up with a sexual ethic that can move the church forward into the future.  

Did you happen to see the claim this weekend from a current missionary? The Elder came out to his mission president as gay (just to make sure he was being totally open and honest) and the mission president told him it was policy that gay missionaries complete a "threat assessment" to see if it was safe for the missionary to stay on the mission. According to the missionary the MP told him that missionaries who had engaged in molestation or bstiality were also required to complete the threat assessment. The Elder claims that his assessment will be reviewed by a member of the 12 this week and a decision about his ability to stay on the mission will be determined.

There are a lot of IF's in this equation and I'd never heard of a threat assessment like this before, but if true it does seem to fit with your hodge podge ethic idea.

[hope_for_things]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Did you happen to see the claim this weekend from a current missionary? The Elder came out to his mission president as gay (just to make sure he was being totally open and honest) and the mission president told him it was policy that gay missionaries complete a "threat assessment" to see if it was safe for the missionary to stay on the mission. According to the missionary the MP told him that missionaries who had engaged in molestation or bstiality were also required to complete the threat assessment. The Elder claims that his assessment will be reviewed by a member of the 12 this week and a decision about his ability to stay on the mission will be determined.

There are a lot of IF's in this equation and I'd never heard of a threat assessment like this before, but if true it does seem to fit with your hodge podge ethic idea.

Wow, oh my word, that is shocking, I hadn't heard about that.  How very very very sad.   I thought we had made progress since the days of Elder Packer condoning violence against gays because they are a perceived threat.  This nonsense kind of folk myth has to stop.  Being gay is not a threat to anyone.  Nonsense.  

I would love to know if this is an official church policy, if so, we need someone to leak this one.  This is very disturbing and abusive to those who have to undergo this kind of shaming.  

[ALarson]

6 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Did you happen to see the claim this weekend from a current missionary? The Elder came out to his mission president as gay (just to make sure he was being totally open and honest) and the mission president told him it was policy that gay missionaries complete a "threat assessment" to see if it was safe for the missionary to stay on the mission. According to the missionary the MP told him that missionaries who had engaged in molestation or bstiality were also required to complete the threat assessment. The Elder claims that his assessment will be reviewed by a member of the 12 this week and a decision about his ability to stay on the mission will be determined.

There are a lot of IF's in this equation and I'd never heard of a threat assessment like this before, but if true it does seem to fit with your hodge podge ethic idea.

So a young man who has come out as being gay is treated the same as someone who has "engaged in molestation or bestiality"?  Is that what this gay missionary states?

Do you have a link for this?

If true, I am very interested in what that "threat assessment" involves.

Edited August 13, 2018 by ALarson

[Prof]

On ‎8‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 12:28 PM, blueglass said:

Brigham Young, JoD, November 9, 1856.

"I do not want to know anything about the sins of this people, at least no more than I am obliged to. If persons lose confidence in themselves, it takes away the strength, faith and confidence that others have in them; it leaves a space that we call weakness. If you have committed a sin that no other person on the earth knows of, and which harms no other one, you have done a wrong and sinned against your God, but keep that within your own bosom, and seek to God and confess there, and get pardon for your sin.

If children have sinned against their parents, or husbands against their wives, or wives against their husbands, let them confess their faults one to another and forgive each other, and there let the confession stop; and then let them ask pardon from their God. Confess your sins to whoever you have sinned against, and let it stop there. If you have committed a sin against the community, confess to them. If you have sinned in your family, confess there. Confess your sins, iniquities, and follies, where that confession belongs, and learn to classify your actions."

Thanks for posting this. I think Brigham had the best insight on confession that I've seen. 

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

So a young man who has come out as being gay is treated the same as someone who has "engaged in molestation or bestiality"?  Is that what this gay missionary states?

Do you have a link for this?

I read it was posted on Reddit (iirc).  The missionary posted a copy of what he had to fill out.  

I’ll search for it and post it if that’s allowed.

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Did you happen to see the claim this weekend from a current missionary? The Elder came out to his mission president as gay (just to make sure he was being totally open and honest) and the mission president told him it was policy that gay missionaries complete a "threat assessment" to see if it was safe for the missionary to stay on the mission. According to the missionary the MP told him that missionaries who had engaged in molestation or bstiality were also required to complete the threat assessment. The Elder claims that his assessment will be reviewed by a member of the 12 this week and a decision about his ability to stay on the mission will be determined.

There are a lot of IF's in this equation and I'd never heard of a threat assessment like this before, but if true it does seem to fit with your hodge podge ethic idea.

I read this and was somewhat appalled.  I have reached out to him should he need a place to go ..to be..or help with anything.  If he wants to stay and do this mission after the assessment, that is fine if it is okay with them...but personally, I want to shout at him...to walk away at such a condemnation.

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

I read this and was somewhat appalled.  I have reached out to him should he need a place to go ..to be..or help with anything.  If he wants to stay and do this mission after the assessment, that is fine if it is okay with them...but personally, I want to shout at him...to walk away at such a condemnation.

Quote

I read it was posted on Reddit (iirc).  The missionary posted a copy of what he had to fill out.  

I’ll search for it and post it if that’s allowed.

For some reason I can't find the assessment so hopefully you can. Thanks.

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

For some reason I can't find the assessment so hopefully you can. Thanks.

As far as I know..I think he is still waiting for it.  I will try to find out.

[Tacenda]

I hadn't thought of this before, but recently read something about it. Why aren't bishops given background checks? 

[ksfisher]

37 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I hadn't thought of this before, but recently read something about it. Why aren't bishops given background checks? 

Why should they be?

[The Nehor]

So has the guy starved to death yet?

[clarkgoble]

56 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I hadn't thought of this before, but recently read something about it. Why aren't bishops given background checks? 

That's actually a good question and something the Church probably should do. They do it for scout leaders after all. It's not that expensive to do a background check.