Former Bishop Hunger Strike for Youth Interview Policy Change

[CV75]

10 hours ago, Prof said:

Your comments have caused me to reflect on how much we do based on policy and culture that has no scriptural or early church precidence. Interviews seem to fall into that category. After reading the referenced article,it seems like much of church discipline falls into that category. 

Last Sunday, we had a discussion about the sacrament. White shirts and ties were brought up as was taking it with the right hand. All that time, I was thinking "there's nothing in the scriptures about this."

It seems that some things we do just seem to evolve, perhaps like these interviews, but I tend to think that important things should have a scriptural (ancient or modern) basis.

The scriptures are not the only source of knowledge and instruction; we have humble experience and observation about what works and what doesn't work (to do all things "decently and in order" per 1 Corinthians 14:40*), in addition to what I posted above Posted 10 hours ago  http://emp.byui.edu/huffr/The Unwritten Order of Things -- Boyd K. Packer.htm Mormon, for example, was "quick to observe" how things worked among his people, even as a young boy (Mormon 1:2).

* This includes such things as white shirts and right hands that are  as much driven by tradition and social mores as they are by inspiration and the best intentions. These kinds of things require some charitable give and take from everyone both in tolerance and conformity, and which may change over the years, but which in any case need to be administered in wisdom and love. 

[JulieM]

6 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

None of the news reports I read were clear on this. Talking with people more familiar with his writings, It seems like he wants to end all worthiness interviews. Which of course just isn't going to happen. So I guess he's going to be pretty hungry.

Oh, I think he’s been very clear about what he wants.  No one on one interviews for kids and teens at all, not just it being an option to invite another adult to be in the interview if they want that.  So, he’s demanding more than what the new guidelines state.  Also absolutely no sexually explicit questions (I think that one is close to being met, imo).

And I agree he’s going to be pretty hungry!  😉

He has stipulated that he will end the strike if ten bishops commit to following what he’s asking for.  But how likely is it that will happen!?

Edited July 31, 2018 by JulieM

[ALarson]

On 7/29/2018 at 11:42 PM, mfbukowski said:

It's only in the news in Utah

No one else cares. 

There's a write up about it in the Washington Post now:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/hunger-strike-puts-more-scrutiny-on-mormon-youth-interviews/2018/07/30/ee57b39a-9438-11e8-818b-e9b7348cd87d_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.9b0a6924167d

Quote:

Quote

 

Young said the changes made so far don’t go nearly far enough to protect children from being asked inappropriate sexual questions. Despite the rule change allowing parents in the interviews, most youth are still choosing to go in alone, he said.

“The changes they’ve made are minimal and meaningless in most wards (congregations) around the world,” said Young, a 65-year-old father who said his daughters were asked inappropriate questions when they were young. “What kid is going to say they want somebody in the room? It’s accomplished nothing.”

 

 

[USU78]

53 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Oh, I think he’s been very clear about what he wants.  No one on one interviews for kids and teens at all, not just it being an option to invite another adult to be in the interview if they want that.  So, he’s demanding more than what the new guidelines state.  Also absolutely no sexually explicit questions (I think that one is close to being met, imo).

And I agree he’s going to be pretty hungry!  😉

He has stipulated that he will end the strike if ten bishops commit to following what he’s asking for.  But how likely is it that will happen!?

Such arrogance

[ALarson]

4 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Such arrogance

Not really, IMO.  He has every right to protest and want changes and ask to be heard.

The leaders also have every right to only make the changes they've made so far.

I've posted that my Bishop is close to being able to commit to what Sam Young wants and I'd imagine there are others out there who feel the same.  I do believe they're in the minority though, but I think we will see this issue evolve even further in the future.  We will see.

Edited July 31, 2018 by ALarson

[HappyJackWagon]

4 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Not really, IMO.  He has every right to protest and want changes and ask to be heard.

The leaders also have every right to only make the changes they've made so far.

I've posted that my Bishop is close to being able to commit to what Sam Young wants and I'd imagine there are others out there who feel the same.  I do believe they're in the minority though, but I think we will see this issue evolve even further in the future.  We will see.

Actually, I think most bishops would prefer for it to be as Bishop Young proposes. But I think it's a minority who would be willing to say so independent of the church.

This issue isn't going away. It will continue to pick up steam. The church will drag its heels (as usual) until it is forced to make changes.

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Actually, I think most bishops would prefer for it to be as Bishop Young proposes. But I think it's a minority who would be willing to say so independent of the church.

I hope you're right.  I think many Bishops are balking at the "no one-on-one interviews at all".  The other demand regarding no sexually explicit questions is something most all Bishops now agree with (at least I would hope so).  

4 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This issue isn't going away. It will continue to pick up steam. The church will drag its heels (as usual) until it is forced to make changes.

I agree.  I think we will eventually at least see the worthiness interviews (1 year and 6 month interviews for the youth and also baptismal interviews) all taking place with another adult in the room.  I'm a little surprised with the two deep policy being so strictly enforced, that this hasn't already taken place.

[Jeanne]

21 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Such arrogance

Such courage.

[FearlessFixxer]

I agree and support Sam in his overall cause.  I don't think it is any leader's business to ask a minor if they have broken the law of chastity in any way.

If it were up to me, the youth would be given access to a list of standards to be temple worthy and then the bishop would ask if they reviewed the standards and if they think they are temple worthy.

Additionally, if a minor does come to a bishop to confess a sin regarding the law of chastity, they should either say it is between them and the lord or send them to an LDS counselor (if they can't talk to their parents)

The neighborhood CPA should not be guiding minors through the repentance process for sexual 'sins'

HAVING SAID THAT>>>>>

 

I agree with those that express disagreement with the hunger strike.

I think that it is a foolish move that will accomplish nothing.  I don't begrudge Sam for doing it.  I don't think he is bad for doing it.  I just think he is misguided.

All the church has to do is wait him out for a couple of days and it is all over.  And the members can easily attack him for being a 'crazy anti-mormon'

This needed change will only happen when the general membership demands it.  He should stick with sharing the stories and trying to get the general membership to see it the way he sees it.

The corporate fat cats don't care what he wants and are not going to change anything because he is hungry.

[rongo]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Actually, I think most bishops would prefer for it to be as Bishop Young proposes. But I think it's a minority who would be willing to say so independent of the church.

I don't think that most secretly agree with him, but aren't willing to say so. I think that most would not or would mostly not agree with him.

This issue isn't going away. It will continue to pick up steam. The church will drag its heels (as usual) until it is forced to make changes.

I don't think this is what will happen (even long-term). I think the Church's view on worthiness, judges, and authority are such that this is a hill to die on --- even if it were to lead to shrinking membership or government sanctions somehow. I also don't think that this issue will really impact baptisms and retention. The struggles we have in this area are due to other factors entirely.  

Sam Young's "clarion call" to people not to join the Church is pretty hard to argue away as not apostate, no? 

[ALarson]

22 minutes ago, rongo said:

Sam Young's "clarion call" to people not to join the Church is pretty hard to argue away as not apostate, no? 

Did he flat out just state that people should not join the church?  Do you have the quote?

I understood that he'd stated not to join without being acquainted with the interview process, etc.  But I haven't seen his entire quote, so that's why I'm asking.

ETA:

I found the quote:

Quote

"If you have people you know who are considering joining the church, please brief them of the danger to their children in the (LDS) church," he said. "This is probably not the optimal time for families with kids to join."

So he didn't just tell people not to join the church....but that people should be aware of the interviews that take place with kids, before they join.  I have to agree, but I'd say that people should educate themselves about all policies of the church, etc., before they commit to join.

Edited July 31, 2018 by ALarson

[ALarson]

5 minutes ago, rongo said:

I don't think that most secretly agree with him, but aren't willing to say so. I think that most would not or would mostly not agree with him.

I do believe that with the "me too" movement and also with more sexual abuse allegations coming out regarding past abuse by church leaders, that leaders may become wary of being alone in the room with youth (and with women) and discussing anything of a sexual nature.  I think the two deep policy should be implemented for the protection of the Bishop (or SP....) regarding these interviews.

I can see this very definitely being enforced in the future if things continue heading in the direction they currently are regarding this issue.

[Danzo]

I completely disagree with the Sam Young guy and I do not believe his views are shared by anyone I personally know that is active in the church.

Eliminating confessions to the bishop by youth will do more harm than good, in my opinion. 

I say that as someone who confessed things to a bishop when I was a youth.  Things I would not have to my parents.  I personally feel I benefited from it.

I know many, who as a youth were glad to have someone they could talk to, other than their parents.  I even know someone who had suffered sexual abuse who benefited as a youth from talking to the branch president.

I think many of these people who are spending all of this time trying to keep children in a bubble will find out that they are the ones the children need the most protection from. 

Unfortunately it is these children who have been kept from growing up and learning the skills they need to live happy productive lives. 

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Such courage.

I agree, it takes alot of courage to get out there and fight for what you think is right vs. sitting in silence. I just worry that Sam will have shot himself in the foot, as FearlesFixxer mentioned and that he really needs the saints behind him, vs trying to get the leadership first. Because if they aren't convinced they usually get behind the leadership and support whatever is told them, IMO. Now Sam might come off as a crazy man and the leadership the authority on the matter. 

[rongo]

41 minutes ago, ALarson said:

So he didn't just tell people not to join the church.

Technically, just people with kids.  

...but that people should be aware of the interviews that take place with kids, before they join.  I have to agree, but I'd say that people should educate themselves about all policies of the church, etc., before they commit to join.

So, holding press conferences and hunger striking in front of the temple, coupled with telling "people you know who are considering joining the Church" that their kids are in grave danger in associating with the Church, is okay, right?  

For me,  "This is probably not the optimal time for families with kids to join" is tantamount to encouraging people not to join. At least not until the Church buckles to his demands.  

 

[clarkgoble]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

Has it been made clear whether it is a hunger strike (no eating until he gets some concession at least) or a protest fast (won't eat for the time period of his political action of two weeks)?

There's a story at M* suggesting he's only doing it as long as his wife lets him. No idea if that is true.

[ALarson]

22 minutes ago, rongo said:

Technically, just people with kids.  

But it's misrepresenting what he stated to just leave it that he told "people with kids" to not join the church.

He was stating that they should be informed of the interview process (regarding kids and youth)  before they decide to join the church.  I see nothing wrong with making sure people know about this before they commit to becoming a member.

Edited July 31, 2018 by ALarson

[Danzo]

10 minutes ago, ALarson said:

But it's misrepresenting what he stated to just leave it that he told "people with kids" to not join the church.

He was stating that they should be informed of the interview process (regarding kids and youth)  before they decide to join the church.  I see nothing wrong with making sure people know about this before they commit to join.

You certainly read "This is probably not the optimal time for families with kids to join"  a lot differently than I do. 

[provoman]

23 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

There's a story at M* suggesting he's only doing it as long as his wife lets him. No idea if that is true.

There are conditions under which he will stop

One of the conditions is when his wife says stop. That was stated in his live feed on Sunday.

[ALarson]

5 minutes ago, Danzo said:

You certainly read "This is probably not the optimal time for families with kids to join"  a lot differently than I do. 

I was referencing the accusation that Sam Young had told people not to join the church. ("Sam Young's "clarion call" to people not to join the Church")

And, that's simply not true. 

I don't really agree with exactly how Sam stated it, to be honest.....but I agree with the sentiment behind it that those investigating the church should be familiar with the policies before they join (not just those pertaining to interviews, but become informed about all before committing to baptism).  I just see way too many who have been rushed into baptism these days (I'm speaking from experience within my own ward and stake).  When that happens, it turns into such a negative experience for some.

 

Edited July 31, 2018 by ALarson

[provoman]

58 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I agree, it takes alot of courage to get out there and fight for what you think is right vs. sitting in silence. I just worry that Sam will have shot himself in the foot, as FearlesFixxer mentioned and that he really needs the saints behind him, vs trying to get the leadership first. Because if they aren't convinced they usually get behind the leadership and support whatever is told them, IMO. Now Sam might come off as a crazy man and the leadership the authority on the matter. 

Yeah, I am not sure hiw many informed members would get behind him. 

Despite atleast one misrepresentation circling Facebook - "he went through the proper channels to no avail" - he received an answer from Elder Christofferson via his SP.  I would not be suprised if he is exocummicated very soon - I do not wish that on him, I just think it is a result of his present effort.

1 hour ago, rongo said:

I don't think that most secretly agree with him, but aren't willing to say so. I think that most would not or would mostly not agree with him.

 

 

I don't think this is what will happen (even long-term). I think the Church's view on worthiness, judges, and authority are such that this is a hill to die on --- even if it were to lead to shrinking membership or government sanctions somehow. I also don't think that this issue will really impact baptisms and retention. The struggles we have in this area are due to other factors entirely.  

Sam Young's "clarion call" to people not to join the Church is pretty hard to argue away as not apostate, no? 

his SP called him an apostate in January 2018. 

[Danzo]

10 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I was referencing the accusation that Sam Young had told people not to join the church. ("Sam Young's "clarion call" to people not to join the Church")

And, that's simply not true. 

I don't really agree with exactly how Sam stated it, to be honest.....but I agree with the sentiment behind it that those investigating the church should be familiar with the policies before they join (not just those pertaining to interviews, but become informed about all before committing to baptism).  I just see way too many who have been rushed into baptism these days (I'm speaking from experience within my own ward and stake).  When that happens, it turns into such a negative experience for some.

 

According to the OP article. Sam Said ""This is probably not the optimal time for families with kids to join""

I think the guy was very clear.

 

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I agree, it takes alot of courage to get out there and fight for what you think is right vs. sitting in silence. I just worry that Sam will have shot himself in the foot, as FearlesFixxer mentioned and that he really needs the saints behind him, vs trying to get the leadership first. Because if they aren't convinced they usually get behind the leadership and support whatever is told them, IMO. Now Sam might come off as a crazy man and the leadership the authority on the matter. 

He is doing, I believe, what many bishops have wanted to do for long time.  I don't think anyone realizes that perhaps these interfiews are not comfortable for them...these are the Bishops that don't skirt the issue...they go around it..but they need to speak up now..Sam is giving them a life line..and a iifel line for the generation to come.  It is not a bad thing.  Tje fact tjat je ,au be hungry is a testiment to faith.  The same faith that fasting does for healing.  Let the children heal...and then let hem not have to e healed.  Perhaps this very good man, a former bishop..is doin what the Savior wants to do.  

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

He is doing, I believe, what many bishops have wanted to do for long time.  I don't think anyone realizes that perhaps these interfiews are not comfortable for them...these are the Bishops that don't skirt the issue...they go around it..but they need to speak up now..Sam is giving them a life line..and a iifel line for the generation to come.  It is not a bad thing.  Tje fact tjat je ,au be hungry is a testiment to faith.  The same faith that fasting does for healing.  Let the children heal...and then let hem not have to e healed.  Perhaps this very good man, a former bishop..is doin what the Savior wants to do.  

Well when you put it that way Jeanne, you make an awesome point. Thanks! 

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

According to the OP article. Sam Said ""This is probably not the optimal time for families with kids to join""

I think the guy was very clear.

 

Read the entire quote for context.  I posted it above.  He wasn't flat out telling "people not to join the church".  That's a misrepresentation.

You left off this part:  "If you have people you know who are considering joining the church, please brief them of the danger to their children in the (LDS) church" 

I've expressed my views and thoughts on this and how he qualified his statements.  You can disagree, of course.  But that's not how he stated it or how I took what he meant (that all people should not join, just that families with kids or youth should be aware of this issue).

Edited July 31, 2018 by ALarson