“Doubt Not, but Be Believing” Elder and Sister Renlund CES Training June 2018

[jkwilliams]

16 minutes ago, pogi said:

Careful brother, that is a slippery slope back into full activity!  Next thing you know, you are going to be praying daily...

Who says I don't pray?

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

I agree with all you wrote above.  What I'm seeing in our ward is an interesting dynamic.  It's still so taboo to even mention certain topics in a group setting (if anyone doubts that, say the word "polygamy" and see the reaction....especially saying "Joseph's polygamy").  But, there are so many members (like your wife) whose beliefs are changing and evolving and who feel alone.  So, we end up with quite a few members who are still attending and pretending to still be a staunch believer because of the peer pressure at church (I'm not saying that's your wife, but just what I'm seeing).  These are many of the members who are coming in to our Bishop (or have in the past) and pleading for help and for answers.  Many keep attending for family (to keep the peace) or because they simply love the ward members and community.  

But, I am seeing a shift in how people believe and feel about the church (at least in my ward).  There's just no way to avoid this and still be more transparent about some of the details of church history and past doctrines.  I think there are few who can hear them and not have a change in how they'd formerly believed or felt about the past leaders and current leadership too.  Then there's this new policy and other current issues that are causing members to struggle too.  

I'm not sure what the answer is that will help, but once again, it's not telling analogies like the one in the OP, IMO.  That's not what members who are struggling need to hear.  It may cause those who are not struggling to feel better about themselves, but it won't help those who are in pain and who are trying to hold on.

So hard.  I think local leaders can see this problem, even the more orthodox types.  The responses from leaders are different across the board.  I had a bishop who would listen to me and not be judgmental, he was great.  My new bishop is also a very nice guy, but he is dogmatic about his responses and I think he's incapable of admitting problems in any kind of nuanced way.  He was also a mission president and I think that his experience have been different than mine so his way of responding to these issues is different.  Perhaps there are people that respond well to his tactics, but I know they don't work well for me and those who I see struggling.  

I have this vision in my mind that we could go out and gather all people in this community together and locally help people process these issues and give support to those struggling.  I see this as real ministering, meeting people where they are at, and not judging them negatively.  Its a pie in the sky dream, but its got some real beauty from my perspective. 

[pogi]

24 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Who says I don't pray?

Oh man, the slope is getting more slippery as we speak! 

Next thing you know, you are going to be paying tithing... 

[CV75]

4 hours ago, ALarson said:

Members do feel isolated and alone when they first learn of historical issues they were not aware of previously.  And yes, LDS leaders have been trying to rescue those who are struggling.  However, they need to use different methods (and not analogies like this) if they want to reach them.. Whatever they are doing, isn't working well for many (most?) and they are still loosing many good members of the church.  I'm not sure what the solution is because IMO, there are simply just no good answers for many of the questions.  But making a member feel that their concerns are silly or small...or that it's their fault...is not going to work or get them back.  That approach will just push most of them further out of the church.

Now we’re creeping past the story into real life application. When I said “no one is alone,” I meant that there are those who see the story as dismissive and those who don’t. Now if you’re talking about the feelings of individuals, many of both perspectives may feel isolated and alone. Both need love and attention.

The analogy allows that everyone is worth saving; I think that is a basic premise / assumption, and the fisherman displayed individual attention and empathy. There are many individualized ways to do this, but the most effective ways each rely on and point to Christ.

The analogy allows that the boat, the fisherman, the food, etc. aren’t working for some, as has always been the case (just as “you have the poor always with you”). All we can do is our best.

When there are no “good” answers for many of the questions, something else is certainly needed and I won’t keep repeating it. But I don’t think anyone is seriously advocating “making a member feel that their concerns are silly or small...or that it's their fault.” That wasn’t a feature in the analogy or the Renlunds’ presentation. Certainly, some CES staff person feeling isolated and alone might interpret it that way, and might strike out against a student that way, but aside from such a rare exemption, a person (no matter how many there are) who is being counseled by a friend or leader is probably not going to be told this story.

4 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The first principle of the gospel is Faith in Jesus Christ. Not faith in the church, Right? Without searching to find the myriad scriptures that support faith in Christ and not placing trust in the arm of the flesh, or discussion of the body of Christ, I'm comfortable in my opinion that the church's primary concern should be bringing people to Christ, so if there is some kind of stumbling block to that, I would think they would want to address it. Again, IMO, I would expect that church leaders would hope and work towards helping people maintain their faith in Christ even if they lose their trust in the church. I guess I don't see how or why that would be a controversial statement.

Yes, I’ve addressed that (faith in Christ comes first): Posted 18 hours ago Posted yesterday at 03:03 PM Posted yesterday at 01:02 PM Posted yesterday at 12:47 PM Posted yesterday at 12:42 PM I’ll spare you any more LOL but do review them because I think i cover much of what you say above and some additional principles that strengthen them.

So I don’t think your statement is controversial, it just isn’t an effective general teaching (as in general conference talk) or the first go-to strategy for someone who is struggling. I recall talks (posted a couple in this thread) where the saints are to continue to reach out to others in love even though they have come to other conclusions.

I do think your statement isn't the first way to apply the story or a good reason to say the principles in the story are ineffective in helping CES teachers help their students.

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Its so hard to know what each individual needs when it comes to support during their faith crisis.  I still have a hard time knowing what my wife needs.  She no longer has the same beliefs as before, but she hasn't been interested in exploring the history in detail like I have.  She also really likes certain aspects of church, and is much happier just going along with what others (church leaders) tell her.  At the same time she recognizes many hurtful elements of church now that she was bind to before.  So she doesn't really fit in the same way she used to, and that is something that is hard for her when she attends.  

What I've learned is that everyone's needs are unique, and even as a person that lives in these spaces and interacts with people frequently in the faith crisis world, I still don't know how to help everyone.  Its a very personal journey.  I wish there were more local support for people struggling.  I just think it would help if the church facilitated people getting together and having real conversations and being vulnerable and discussing these issues without shame and blame and judgment.  I have a hope that we could get through these things together, but the social stigmas (which I think are sinful) are creating barriers that stop this from happening. 

There was another thread about faith crisis support groups, but don’t recall where that went. I do think a ministering brother or sister, or leader, could get together with someone who is struggling and have real conversations and be vulnerable and discuss these issues without shame and blame and judgment. I’ve seen that happen. Granted, sometimes these ministers and leaders are just like the fisherman in the boat, or find themselves inadequate to the task, but that again is where faith and conversion to Christ come in and draw upon his grace.

[cinepro]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

Part of the story falls apart for me with the whole angel and sword part.  It seems like if anyone needed an angel to appear to them, it should have been Emma, not Joseph Smith.  Or if God is commanding a couple to start up polygamy, don't you think the angel should have appeared to both of them?  But for some reason, this seems to be a reoccurring theme.  Break off church leader wants to have multiple wives.  He gets a vision, he forces his wife to go along with it or does it behind her back.  Hummm. 

Edit: Yeah probably too much of a derail.  But these would be the questions I would be bringing up in a group discussion.  And if I did, would anyone have an answer for that?  So many of these issues, you have to throw out rational questions.

You mean like when God needed to straighten out Laman and Lemuel and sent an angel?

It is weird how he sent an angel to everybody in that story, but in Joseph Smith's case only he saw the angel.  God does work in mysterious ways.

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

There was another thread about faith crisis support groups, but don’t recall where that went. I do think a ministering brother or sister, or leader, could get together with someone who is struggling and have real conversations and be vulnerable and discuss these issues without shame and blame and judgment. I’ve seen that happen. Granted, sometimes these ministers and leaders are just like the fisherman in the boat, or find themselves inadequate to the task, but that again is where faith and conversion to Christ come in and draw upon his grace.

I've had many conversations with thoughtful members over the years and I really appreciate connecting with others in person.  Unfortunately, for the majority of these conversations I could only share a small portion of my struggles, as those communicating with me couldn't handle the really challenging topics that I'm wrestling with.  Its like speaking a different language with someone who just has no knowledge about the information I'm wading through, and so I end up pulling back from the challenging questions I'm wrestling with and just keep it surface level.  

But these deeper questions are what need to be discussed, and yet for many different reasons those who haven't journeyed through these questions aren't capable of understanding how truly challenging the questions are.  So support from people that express their love is one level of empathy and support, and that is very helpful.  But also finding people who can go deeper and who can talk about these questions without any negative judgment, this quality I find is very rare.  

Let me share an example, you've heard of Marlin Jensen, GA and former church historian who was quite progressive and famous for being in tune with the whole faith crisis phenomenon.  I had the chance to hear him speak at a Dialogue 50th anniversary event last year.  He was having a back and forth Q&A discussion with Greg Prince, and was asked a question about how to deal with people going through faith crisis.  I remember him relating a story, and I have some notes on this at home because it left such a strong impression with me, but I'll summarize what I can remember here.  

Essentially Elder Jensen was asked all the hard historical questions by the person going through faith crisis, but after giving some complicated answers and acknowledging to the person that there aren't satisfactory answers to all the questions Elder Jensen expressed his personal belief that at the end of all your questions the most important thing is to just have faith in the gospel as a whole and trust that God is in charge and that church leaders have the keys of authority.  The person having the faith crisis questioned this, and Elder Jensen expressed that he believes this is the most important thing a person can do in this life, he said something to the effect that this is the #1 most important thing a human can do in this life, this allegiance to church authority. 

Well, I was shocked and dismayed.  How can a person who's wrestled with all the tough questions of history who's admittedly spoken to hundreds or possibly thousands of people struggling with faith crisis, who knows there aren't good answers for the complex history, come to the conclusion that the most important orientation in life is allegiance to the LDS church?  This boggled my mind and really upset me at the time. 

Since then I've reflected on this more, and I think what the Elder Jensen example shows is that for some people they are only willing to take the challenging questions about life, existence, the problem of evil, so far.  They are only willing to go to that ledge, but they aren't willing to jump.  They aren't willing to let go of the safety line they have, their ego is too tied to it, they aren't willing to truly consider that God may be dead.  That idea, once you go there, it really changes the way a person thinks.  But if you aren't willing to go there, then you can't really relate to someone thats been down that road.  

To use a religious metaphor, you can't be born again until you let your faith die.  And until you experience this death of God, the realization that life is meaningless and full of suffering, you can't start to organizing meaning again.  You can't start to participate in the creative process of organizing matter, and re-membering the disparate stories found throughout the cultures of the world.  This process takes work, and that's what I'm working through myself, and its challenging because there isn't a template for how to do it that I've found.  It can be lonely, but it also has been such a wonderful humbling and educational experience.  Perhaps its not for everyone, I understand.  But its the road I'm on.  

Edited July 12, 2018 by hope_for_things

[pogi]

22 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Since then I've reflected on this more, and I think what the Elder Jensen example shows is that for some people they are only willing to take the challenging questions about life, existence, the problem of evil, so far.  They are only willing to go to that ledge, but they aren't willing to jump.  They aren't willing to let go of the safety line they have, their ego is too tied to it, they aren't willing to truly consider that God may be dead.  That idea, once you go there, it really changes the way a person thinks.  But if you aren't willing to go there, then you can't really relate to someone thats been down that road.  

To use a religious metaphor, you can't be born again until you let your faith die.  And until you experience this death of God, the realization that life is meaningless and full of suffering, you can't start to organizing meaning again.  You can't start to participate in the creative process of organizing matter, and re-membering the disparate stories found throughout the cultures of the world.  This process takes work, and that's what I'm working through myself, and its challenging because there isn't a template for how to do it that I've found.  It can be lonely, but it also has been such a wonderful humbling and educational experience.  Perhaps its not for everyone, I understand.  But its the road I'm on.  

Thanks for sharing your experience.  I think that is a really descriptive explanation of the process of losing faith.  

In comparing your approach to the difficult questions with Elder Jensen's approach, I wonder what the difference really is.  In your mind, the questions inevitably require one to "jump" of the ledge and let your "faith die", and if they don't, it is only because their ego won't let them.  For me, however, there is a difference between letting oneself truly consider the difficult question, "is God dead?", and accepting the position that "God is dead" as if it is the inevitable and unavoidable conclusion.

For me, "holding on" has nothing to do with giving in to the ego, but has everything to do with letting go of the ego...completely.  It is about giving everything, including my own will to know Him.  For me, holding on is not about avoiding the really difficult question of "is God dead?", but is about staring the question directly in the face and feeling God's warm embrace through it.  For me, it is no longer a question.  I know that God lives and loves me as well as I know that I live.

There is one observation that I have made about the process of loosing faith though.  It seems that the primary motivating force for a lot of people who lose faith is the difficult, unanswered questions.  Yet, they all seem to say the same thing when they reach the other side of faith...there are no answers here either.  All they really do is substitue one set of unanswered questions with, what seems to me, a much larger set of even more troubling and soul shattering questions that can take one into the abyss of nihilistic thinking.  Somehow, those questions are preferred. I don't understand it.  

 

[Tacenda]

50 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I've had many conversations with thoughtful members over the years and I really appreciate connecting with others in person.  Unfortunately, for the majority of these conversations I could only share a small portion of my struggles, as those communicating with me couldn't handle the really challenging topics that I'm wrestling with.  Its like speaking a different language with someone who just has no knowledge about the information I'm wading through, and so I end up pulling back from the challenging questions I'm wrestling with and just keep it surface level.  

But these deeper questions are what need to be discussed, and yet for many different reasons those who haven't journeyed through these questions aren't capable of understanding how truly challenging the questions are.  So support from people that express their love is one level of empathy and support, and that is very helpful.  But also finding people who can go deeper and who can talk about these questions without any negative judgment, this quality I find is very rare.  

Let me share an example, you've heard of Marlin Jensen, GA and former church historian who was quite progressive and famous for being in tune with the whole faith crisis phenomenon.  I had the chance to hear him speak at a Dialogue 50th anniversary event last year.  He was having a back and forth Q&A discussion with Greg Prince, and was asked a question about how to deal with people going through faith crisis.  I remember him relating a story, and I have some notes on this at home because it left such a strong impression with me, but I'll summarize what I can remember here.  

Essentially Elder Jensen was asked all the hard historical questions by the person going through faith crisis, but after giving some complicated answers and acknowledging to the person that there aren't satisfactory answers to all the questions Elder Jensen expressed his personal belief that at the end of all your questions the most important thing is to just have faith in the gospel as a whole and trust that God is in charge and that church leaders have the keys of authority.  The person having the faith crisis questioned this, and Elder Jensen expressed that he believes this is the most important thing a person can do in this life, he said something to the effect that this is the #1 most important thing a human can do in this life, this allegiance to church authority. 

Well, I was shocked and dismayed.  How can a person who's wrestled with all the tough questions of history who's admittedly spoken to hundreds or possibly thousands of people struggling with faith crisis, who knows there aren't good answers for the complex history, come to the conclusion that the most important orientation in life is allegiance to the LDS church?  This boggled my mind and really upset me at the time. 

Since then I've reflected on this more, and I think what the Elder Jensen example shows is that for some people they are only willing to take the challenging questions about life, existence, the problem of evil, so far.  They are only willing to go to that ledge, but they aren't willing to jump.  They aren't willing to let go of the safety line they have, their ego is too tied to it, they aren't willing to truly consider that God may be dead.  That idea, once you go there, it really changes the way a person thinks.  But if you aren't willing to go there, then you can't really relate to someone thats been down that road.  

To use a religious metaphor, you can't be born again until you let your faith die.  And until you experience this death of God, the realization that life is meaningless and full of suffering, you can't start to organizing meaning again.  You can't start to participate in the creative process of organizing matter, and re-membering the disparate stories found throughout the cultures of the world.  This process takes work, and that's what I'm working through myself, and its challenging because there isn't a template for how to do it that I've found.  It can be lonely, but it also has been such a wonderful humbling and educational experience.  Perhaps its not for everyone, I understand.  But its the road I'm on.  

This! Exactly my thoughts as well. I listened to this podcast this morning and it helped. I wish more leaders thought it ok to get past the level 3 in belief stages. https://www.athoughtfulfaith.org/253-revisiting-fowlers-stages-of-faith-stage-three/

[hope_for_things]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

Thanks for sharing your experience.  I think that is a really descriptive explanation of the process of losing faith.  

In comparing your approach to the difficult questions with Elder Jensen's approach, I wonder what the difference really is.  In your mind, the questions inevitably require one to "jump" of the ledge and let your "faith die", and if they don't, it is only because their ego won't let them.  For me, however, there is a difference between letting oneself truly consider the difficult question, "is God dead?", and accepting the position that "God is dead" as if it is the inevitable and unavoidable conclusion.

For me, "holding on" has nothing to do with giving in to the ego, but has everything to do with letting go of the ego...completely.  It is about giving everything, including my own will to know Him.  For me, holding on is not about avoiding the really difficult question of "is God dead?", but is about staring the question directly in the face and feeling God's warm embrace through it.  For me, it is no longer a question.  I know that God lives and loves me as well as I know that I live.

There is one observation that I have made about the process of loosing faith though.  It seems that the primary motivating force for a lot of people who lose faith is the difficult, unanswered questions.  Yet, they all seem to say the same thing when they reach the other side of faith...there are no answers here either.  All they really do is substitue one set of unanswered questions with, what seems to me, a much larger set of even more troubling and soul shattering questions that can take one into the abyss of nihilistic thinking.  Somehow, those questions are preferred. I don't understand it.  

Thanks for responding, appreciate the interaction.  I should caveat that I'm making assumptions about Elder Jensen's approach which are likely inaccurate at many levels.  I probably should have said that in my original post.  

I guess I think that once you lose a belief in God and religion and this idea that the universe is orderly, when those foundations disappear it was for me a very paradigm altering experience.  I don't think of it as an abyss although, I can see how someone might lose their way in nihilism, I actually think that there is much to learn from the thinkers those who've explored nihilism.  Critiques of religion, critiques of mysticism, critiques of Atheism, critiques of all the different theisms. 

As I continue to explore these critiques I find a lot of value in the exploration itself.  All these systems have flaws and also really valuable material as well.  By exploring the diversity of thought in the world we can learn much more than just aligning ourselves with those that we are preconditioned to agree with, our tribes of origin, confirming the biases we're comfortable with.  

But you make some interesting points about ego, perhaps ego wasn't the driving factor.  Perhaps my ego is driving me to deconstruct and be skeptical about so many things.  I'm not all that convinced that I have much if any free will when it comes down to it.  But I like operating in the world as if I do have free will.  

The thing about Elder Jensen's response that bothered me the most was his emphasis on what he views as the most important thing we can do in this life.  Allegiance to authority.  How can someone so well read, distill life down to that value as the number one most important thing we can do with our life?  I just don't get it.  It wasn't like he said serving others is the most important thing we can do, or raising our family, or something like that.  No, for such a smart person who knows all this history, the most important thing we can do is show allegiance to the church?!?!?  

Wow, that one shocked me, truly.  Made me think that all that learning must be a waste if that's the most important thing a person can do in this life.  Its not even Christian, or one of the fundamentals of Mormonism.  Its definitely a modern correlated Mormon large institutional emphasis, but its not one of the pillars of our faith's teachings.  I believe our fruits matter, I believe feeding Christ's sheep matters.  I believe judge not, matters.  But I don't believe submitting to authority is a core principle of the gospel, that is heresy as far as I'm concerned.  

[hope_for_things]

22 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This! Exactly my thoughts as well. I listened to this podcast this morning and it helped. I wish more leaders thought it ok to get past the level 3 in belief stages. https://www.athoughtfulfaith.org/253-revisiting-fowlers-stages-of-faith-stage-three/

Thanks, I like the stages approach as well because it helps to take some of the stigma away from faith transitioning to think that we're all on a different level depending on where we are.  My only caveat is that we need to be careful to not consider different stages more enlightened or sophisticated than others.  I worry that I hear some people express a stage 5 as better than stage 3.  I see them as different and as having pros and cons.  Some of the best people I've known in life have lived in stage 3.  

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

I'm not sure what the answer is that will help, but once again, it's not telling analogies like the one in the OP, IMO.  That's not what members who are struggling need to hear.  It may cause those who are not struggling to feel better about themselves, but it won't help those who are in pain and who are trying to hold on.

I think you're probably right but I'm not sure we can really speak for everyone though.

I had a rough patch while on my mission and came across a 'stay in the boat' talk by one of the apostles (I don't remember which one) in an old ensign in our apartment.  That article (and especially the analogy used) really helped me.  

[Calm]

9 hours ago, ALarson said:

The numbers of members who are discovering the details regarding some of the more difficult and disturbing historical issues,.  This has then caused many of them to loose faith and trust in their leaders and in the church.  We are seeing more members coming in with questions as these (true historical details) are being revealed more and more.

I think there was a short time period (20-25 years) where there wasn't a significant conflict between the Church and general Society (no polygamy, no Priesthood ban, no real weirdness about WoW), so that now another period of more obvious conflict (SSM and homosexual sexual behaviour in certain countries, also premarital sex) shows up, it seems unusual.  Same thing with the history stuff.  Growing up in the 60s, more adult members were aware of the history because their families lived it.  Between the rise in converts, including having converts as parents and grandparents for BICs, and the couple of decades where discussing detailed history in church venues was most often absent (including much less telling of family known stories that might mention polygamy or other conflicts) save for some extremely tailored stories such as Thomas Marsh, I think we have a unique situation for the Church (information is available to converts and pioneer heritage members alike through the Internet and now church resources as well as greater conflict reappearing between the general culture and church culture/doctrine...some culturally manufactured like modesty standards, others doctrinal like SSM imo) so that comparing it to times past can lead to faulty conclusions.

edited:  sorry for the convoluted sentences... you should see what it is like in my head.

Edited July 13, 2018 by Calm

[clarkgoble]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think there was a short time period (20-25 years) where there wasn't a significant conflict between the Church and general Society (no polygamy, no Priesthood ban, no real weirdness about WoW), so that now another period of more obvious conflict (SSM and homosexual sexual behaviour in certain countries, also premarital sex) shows up, it seems unusual.  Same thing with the history stuff. 

I think that's part of it but I also think there's really been a generational shift in just what's important. I've often characterized this as a loss of the concept of "sin" as impurity into a reduction into ethics. However it's much more than that. I think there's also been an increased emphasis on the individual and their own autonomy and immediate benefits as the only criteria that matters. In that scheme religion becomes reduced to utility. Boring meetings can't be justified, especially when there are dance clubs or more exciting religious services (or just staying home and watching videos that meet ones immediate needs exactly). Truth gets reduced down to a kind of meaning as utility. That's great if one enjoys getting meaning from reading the scriptures in that fashion. However just as most people don't really enjoy reading Dostoevsky or Melville, most people don't really enjoy reading scripture. Especially when the alternative is the latest "much watch" video series. Religion, particularly of the sort we follow, makes big demands. It's hard to get up early on Sunday for a 9 AM meeting and have to teach a primary lesson. 

Into this change in culture comes the kind of conflict from thing like the rare abusive leader, stories about polygamy, and so forth. So it's not just that we don't offer much positive for Millennials and those born more recently. It's that inherently we make our religion at best something that has to be wrestled with. There's no passive way to really believe unless one was raised in the religion. Even that, which used to work fine, seems harder and harder - especially as we see generational gaps on politics. 

When we look at life in terms of what's it's personal utility with a de-emphasis on struggle for information, it's hardly surprising how things evolve. Mormonism is far from an easy religion. There are compelling things pushing people away from the religion without that effect of personal revelation.

All that said, I actually think the Church is doing surprisingly well given all the headwinds we have to go against in our growth. 

[Calm]

Quote

Into this change in culture comes the kind of conflict from thing like the rare abusive leader, stories about polygamy, and so forth. So it's not just that we don't offer much positive for Millennials and those born more recently. It's that inherently we make our religion at best something that has to be wrestled with. There's no passive way to really believe unless one was raised in the religion. Even that, which used to work fine, seems harder and harder - especially as we see generational gaps on politics. 

Well stated.

All in all, I think trying to extrapolate what will happen with these new trends is very difficult and I have little confidence in longterm projections.  The general culture is changing dramatically and the technology of communication makes those changes much more global so cultural stability seems to me to be vulnerable in ways it hasn't been in the past.

But then .I haven't lived through wars, genocides, being conquered by a foreign nation, so perhaps such upheavals aren't that unusual if one takes the whole of human history.

Edited July 12, 2018 by Calm

[pogi]

53 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I guess I think that once you lose a belief in God and religion and this idea that the universe is orderly, when those foundations disappear it was for me a very paradigm altering experience.  I don't think of it as an abyss although, I can see how someone might lose their way in nihilism, I actually think that there is much to learn from the thinkers those who've explored nihilism.  Critiques of religion, critiques of mysticism, critiques of Atheism, critiques of all the different theisms. 

I would say that if you haven't fallen into complete and total existential crisis and despair then you haven't allowed your self to truly address the next stage of challenging questions of nihilism.  You have only stepped to the ledge, but you are not willing to jump off (just like Jensen).  I think you two have more in common then you think.  You are just standing at different ledges saying, "it is not worth it".   We all have ledges that we are not willing to jump off.  Why?  Because we know deep down that it would lead to complete catastrophe.  

Quote

In his study of meaninglessness, Donald Crosby writes that the source of modern nihilism paradoxically stems from a commitment to honest intellectual openness. "Once set in motion, the process of questioning could come to but one end, the erosion of conviction and certitude and collapse into despair" (The Specter of the Absurd, 1988).

Quote

The caustic strength of nihilism is absolute, Nietzsche argues, and under its withering scrutiny "the highest values devalue themselves. The aim is lacking, and 'Why' finds no answer" (Will to Power). Inevitably, nihilism will expose all cherished beliefs and sacrosanct truths as symptoms of a defective Western mythos. This collapse of meaning, relevance, and purpose will be the most destructive force in history, constituting a total assault on reality and nothing less than the greatest crisis of humanity:

 

53 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

  The thing about Elder Jensen's response that bothered me the most was his emphasis on what he views as the most important thing we can do in this life.  Allegiance to authority.  How can someone so well read, distill life down to that value as the number one most important thing we can do with our life?  I just don't get it.  It wasn't like he said serving others is the most important thing we can do, or raising our family, or something like that.  No, for such a smart person who knows all this history, the most important thing we can do is show allegiance to the church?!?!?  

Wow, that one shocked me, truly.  Made me think that all that learning must be a waste if that's the most important thing a person can do in this life.  Its not even Christian, or one of the fundamentals of Mormonism.  Its definitely a modern correlated Mormon large institutional emphasis, but its not one of the pillars of our faith's teachings.  I believe our fruits matter, I believe feeding Christ's sheep matters.  I believe judge not, matters.  But I don't believe submitting to authority is a core principle of the gospel, that is heresy as far as I'm concerned.  

I think the allegiance that Jensen is speaking of is not to man, but to the authority of God. Allegiance to this authority leads one into all good, such as serving others, family, and all those other things you mentioned.  It is total submission to God.  That IS the most important thing we can do in this life.  I think that is what he was talking about. 

Edited July 12, 2018 by pogi

[CV75]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I've had many conversations with thoughtful members over the years and I really appreciate connecting with others in person.  Unfortunately, for the majority of these conversations I could only share a small portion of my struggles, as those communicating with me couldn't handle the really challenging topics that I'm wrestling with.  Its like speaking a different language with someone who just has no knowledge about the information I'm wading through, and so I end up pulling back from the challenging questions I'm wrestling with and just keep it surface level.  

But these deeper questions are what need to be discussed, and yet for many different reasons those who haven't journeyed through these questions aren't capable of understanding how truly challenging the questions are.  So support from people that express their love is one level of empathy and support, and that is very helpful.  But also finding people who can go deeper and who can talk about these questions without any negative judgment, this quality I find is very rare.  

Let me share an example, you've heard of Marlin Jensen, GA and former church historian who was quite progressive and famous for being in tune with the whole faith crisis phenomenon.  I had the chance to hear him speak at a Dialogue 50th anniversary event last year.  He was having a back and forth Q&A discussion with Greg Prince, and was asked a question about how to deal with people going through faith crisis.  I remember him relating a story, and I have some notes on this at home because it left such a strong impression with me, but I'll summarize what I can remember here.  

Essentially Elder Jensen was asked all the hard historical questions by the person going through faith crisis, but after giving some complicated answers and acknowledging to the person that there aren't satisfactory answers to all the questions Elder Jensen expressed his personal belief that at the end of all your questions the most important thing is to just have faith in the gospel as a whole and trust that God is in charge and that church leaders have the keys of authority.  The person having the faith crisis questioned this, and Elder Jensen expressed that he believes this is the most important thing a person can do in this life, he said something to the effect that this is the #1 most important thing a human can do in this life, this allegiance to church authority. 

Well, I was shocked and dismayed.  How can a person who's wrestled with all the tough questions of history who's admittedly spoken to hundreds or possibly thousands of people struggling with faith crisis, who knows there aren't good answers for the complex history, come to the conclusion that the most important orientation in life is allegiance to the LDS church?  This boggled my mind and really upset me at the time. 

Since then I've reflected on this more, and I think what the Elder Jensen example shows is that for some people they are only willing to take the challenging questions about life, existence, the problem of evil, so far.  They are only willing to go to that ledge, but they aren't willing to jump.  They aren't willing to let go of the safety line they have, their ego is too tied to it, they aren't willing to truly consider that God may be dead.  That idea, once you go there, it really changes the way a person thinks.  But if you aren't willing to go there, then you can't really relate to someone thats been down that road.  

To use a religious metaphor, you can't be born again until you let your faith die.  And until you experience this death of God, the realization that life is meaningless and full of suffering, you can't start to organizing meaning again.  You can't start to participate in the creative process of organizing matter, and re-membering the disparate stories found throughout the cultures of the world.  This process takes work, and that's what I'm working through myself, and its challenging because there isn't a template for how to do it that I've found.  It can be lonely, but it also has been such a wonderful humbling and educational experience.  Perhaps its not for everyone, I understand.  But its the road I'm on.  

Taking your report of Elder Jensen’s remarks to be accurate, he says: have faith in the Gospel (Jesus overcoming sin and death), that God is in charge, and that His servants have the keys of authority. He summed up the practice of this faith as “allegiance to Church authority” which is from 3 Nephi 12:1, which verse is the culmination of what Jesus taught in the previous chapter and which sets the stage for the rest of the Lord’s personal mission to the Nephites (the rest of chapter 12 through chapter 28).

Thus understanding “allegiance to [i.e. “heed” per 3 Nephi)] church authority” to mean “trust the men leading the Church” is neither a full nor correct interpretation. But given that limited perception and understanding, I totally get the rejection of authority, an inclination I too possess if not for incorporating the other redeeming elements he mentioned. If developing a more integrated perspective is a function of my being more willing to face the challenges of discipleship, I agree with Elder Jenkins that that is fundamentally, when all is said and done, only a function of faith.

Naturally, faith and doubt cannot co-exist, hence the unwillingness to “go there,” respectively, by one without faith and one with faith, and the commitment to work and sacrifice in the direction each has chosen.

It would be interesting to see the doubter’s version of the Renlund story, rescuing those with faith!  

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I think you're probably right but I'm not sure we can really speak for everyone though.

I had a rough patch while on my mission and came across a 'stay in the boat' talk by one of the apostles (I don't remember which one) in an old ensign in our apartment.  That article (and especially the analogy used) really helped me.  

If only I knew of members in the ward I could talk to that were like you and several others on the board. You guys have bullet proof testimonies and it is really an example to me of what could be. 

[california boy]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

I think that's part of it but I also think there's really been a generational shift in just what's important. I've often characterized this as a loss of the concept of "sin" as impurity into a reduction into ethics. However it's much more than that. I think there's also been an increased emphasis on the individual and their own autonomy and immediate benefits as the only criteria that matters. In that scheme religion becomes reduced to utility. Boring meetings can't be justified, especially when there are dance clubs or more exciting religious services (or just staying home and watching videos that meet ones immediate needs exactly). Truth gets reduced down to a kind of meaning as utility. That's great if one enjoys getting meaning from reading the scriptures in that fashion. However just as most people don't really enjoy reading Dostoevsky or Melville, most people don't really enjoy reading scripture. Especially when the alternative is the latest "much watch" video series. Religion, particularly of the sort we follow, makes big demands. It's hard to get up early on Sunday for a 9 AM meeting and have to teach a primary lesson. 

Into this change in culture comes the kind of conflict from thing like the rare abusive leader, stories about polygamy, and so forth. So it's not just that we don't offer much positive for Millennials and those born more recently. It's that inherently we make our religion at best something that has to be wrestled with. There's no passive way to really believe unless one was raised in the religion. Even that, which used to work fine, seems harder and harder - especially as we see generational gaps on politics. 

When we look at life in terms of what's it's personal utility with a de-emphasis on struggle for information, it's hardly surprising how things evolve. Mormonism is far from an easy religion. There are compelling things pushing people away from the religion without that effect of personal revelation.

All that said, I actually think the Church is doing surprisingly well given all the headwinds we have to go against in our growth. 

I see some of this as well.  I think people want something in their life that they feel passionate about. Something bigger than themselves. But for many, religion has made it difficult to grab on to and believe in.  There are just too many claims made by religion that are easy to fact check and turn out to probably not be true.  Some see religion is a place for people to gather together and for strong relationships with like-minded people.  Others find religion divisive and political.  The ones that like the community gravitate to it.  The ones that find it divisive and even contentious leave it.  It is important to remember that not EVEYONE is leaving religion.  But those that are leave it for very concrete reasons.  Most of all, religion has lost it's trust.  If you really listen to them and let them open up on why they feel the way they do about religion, then you can often see that it is not just video games distracting them.

Edited July 13, 2018 by california boy

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

You guys have bullet proof testimonies and it is really an example to me of what could be. 

No one has a 'bullet-proof' testimony. Experiences that are not repeated fade into the fog of memory and lose their immediacy. Eventually they lose their meaning altogether as we reinterpret the past.

As one of my former housemates used to say, the most important revelation is never the dramatic one that happened a long time ago; it's the one that happened just this week.

A number of people in this forum argue that they can't just choose to believe, but I know from personal experience that one absolutely can choose to engage in the kind of behaviour that dissipates doubts and generates faith, builds it and then makes it unshakable. Faith without works is dead specifically because faith without works dies.

'If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself'.

On this point, I love the contrast between Parley P. Pratt (pre-conversion) and his brother William.

Parley: 'I am going to fulfil the conditions to the letter on my part. I feel called upon by the Holy Ghost to forsake my house and home for the gospel's sake; and I will do it, placing both feet firm on these promises with nothing else to rely upon. If I sink, they are false. If I am sustained, they are true. I will put them to the test. Experiment shall now establish the truth of Christ's promises, or the truth of infidelity'.

William: 'Well, try it, if you will; but, for my part, although I always believed the Bible, I would not dare believe it literally, and really stand upon its promises, with no other prop'.

Edited July 13, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

I see some of this as well.  I think people want something in their life that they feel passionate about. Something bigger than themselves. But for many, religion has made it difficult to grab on to and believe in.  There are just too many claims made by religion that are easy to fact check and turn out to probably not be true.  Some see religion is a place for people to gather together and for strong relationships with like-minded people.  Others find religion divisive and political.  The ones that like the community gravitate to it.  The ones that find it divisive and even contentious leave it.  It is important to remember that not EVEYONE is leaving religion.  But those that are leave it for very concrete reasons.  Most of all, religion has lost it's trust.  If you really listen to them and let them open up on why they feel the way they do about religion, then you can often see that it is not just video games distracting them.

The problem is that if this was true we'd see people flocking to the very theologically liberal sects. But they're not. So there's more going on. So I think there's something deeper going on. Yes a significant number of the Nones were, for a time, those loosely tied to religion who mainly made a change in name rather than a change in behavior. But I think especially the last 10 years there's more going on that that. It's not that religion has lost its trust. It's the religion has lost its saliency. 

In saying that I don't deny there are those who fit what you describe. I'm just very skeptical they make up a significant fraction in aggregate.

I'd also not say it's video games distracting them. Rather it's that video games, television, and so forth offer them more on their terms. Now I'd say that ultimately this isn't fulfilling at all. I think the big leap in suicide and depression the past five or six years probably is tied to the breakdown of people being involved in these organizations. There are some political organizations that have, for some, taken their place. But in general people have turned inwards rather than socially outwards and the effects have not been good socially. If anything I hope quasi-religious organizations come to take the place of religion. However the statistics show that those who leave religion become more unaffiliated with all organizations ranging from sports teams, charity groups, and so forth. Even ignoring religious claims (and I recognize you think them "easy to fact check and turn out to probably not be true") people who leave religion tend to disproportionately leave social groups nearly entirely. (Again we're talking aggregates - not all of the Nones are like that obviously) 

Put in your terms, perhaps people who leave religion do want something in life they feel passionate about. However clearly they're not finding it.

Edited July 13, 2018 by clarkgoble

[provoman]

wrong thread

Edited July 13, 2018 by provoman

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 minutes ago, provoman said:

last filing was 07/09/2018 - Notice of Hearing on Motion

This feels like it somehow ended up in the wrong thread...

[provoman]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

If only I knew of members in the ward I could talk to that were like you and several others on the board. You guys have bullet proof testimonies and it is really an example to me of what could be. 

I like what smac posted a little bit ago, about rebuttable presumption. I have enough belief to stay on the beleif side of the fence. I find criticism against the Church requiring "faith that the inference of the criticism is true". 

One thing that stands out to me is, while early witnesses of the Book of Mormon left the Church or were excommunicated, they did not deny the experience. I think that is powerful witness.

[provoman]

4 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This feels like it somehow ended up in the wrong thread...

yep, howd that happen

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

If only I knew of members in the ward I could talk to that were like you and several others on the board. You guys have bullet proof testimonies and it is really an example to me of what could be. 

You have been talking to a lot of us for years and years so it is not just the talking that matters.  If you want something to change, think about what is missing in this interaction that you need and go out and make it work for you....if you want it to work.

It is not like you can't do it.  Look at your success with the CBD oil.  You had concerns, you researched possible solutions for them.  Found the one (CBD oil) that sounded the most workable for you in spite of others criticizing the choice and went for it.  You experimented on the word (the research) and it bore good fruit for you...you are taking less thyroid medication.

And now you are a passionate missionary for your belief.

Why not repeat with another of your concerns?

Edited July 13, 2018 by Calm