Update on McKenna Denson Lawsuit (Hearing Schedule)

[jkwilliams]

Just now, ALarson said:

It's actually something I think about and shudder.  He went on to abuse other little boys in the ward and they eventually divorced (she threw him out) and moved away.  I still think about them a lot actually.  We are just so completely programmed to defer to our church leaders.....but I'm not controlled like that anymore and would stand up to anything like this today and would not allow it to happen.

The thing that kills me is that the same people who tell me that church leaders are inspired are the ones who mock me for having deferred to leaders when I should have known better. 

[ALarson]

4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

The thing that kills me is that the same people who tell me that church leaders are inspired are the ones who mock me for having deferred to leaders when I should have known better. 

Yeah, there should be no mocking.  Members still defer to their leaders today.  I think more are learning they can say "no" to callings or take care of situations on their own without going to their Bishop for everything.  But it's still slow moving and still nonexistent for many.  Some go to their Bishop over such trivial matters....I feel for mine sometimes!

I just know that the great majority (close to all of them) are doing the very best they can and would love to have more help and training in areas such as this one.

Edited July 3, 2018 by ALarson

[jkwilliams]

Just now, ALarson said:

Yeah, there should be no mocking.  Members still defer to their leaders today.  I think more are learning they can say "no" to callings or take care of situations on their own without going to their Bishop for everything.  But it's still slow moving and still nonexistent for many.  Some go to their Bishop over such trivial matters....I feel for mine sometimes!

It took me a long time to learn to say no. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

25 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I really was so naive about this topic back then and have learned a lot, but it happened and It's not a proud memory of mine.  

Thanks for sharing. I'm very glad you've learnt.

You wrote that 'I've just seen too many instances where a church leaders has talked a victim out of contacting the police', and you also mentioned having 'honestly seen Bishops send the child home with their Father the night the abuse was reported'. I don't hold you accountable for what you didn't understand 10 years ago, but just how many instances and bishops (both plural) have you personally witnessed in the past where you didn't speak up or take any protective action?

Edited July 3, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[ALarson]

10 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Thanks for sharing. I'm very glad you've learnt.

You wrote that 'I've just seen too many instances where a church leaders has talked a victim out of contacting the police', and you also mentioned having 'honestly seen Bishops send the child home with their Father the night the abuse was reported'. I don't hold you accountable for what you didn't understand 10 years ago, but just how many instances and bishops (both plural) have you personally witnessed in the past where you didn't speak up or take any protective action?

Gratefully, that one was the only instance I was personally involved with (I've never served as a Bishop).  I do work with abuse victims as part of my job though and I hear many, many similar stories (way too many) and I am personally involved with getting them help with healing (and recommending legal counsel if it applies).  I've also had some related to me by my Bishop and a family member (all in the past, but all very similar).  

Hopefully as more of these stories get told, there will continue to be more changes and more training for local leaders and we can learn from past mistakes.

Edited July 3, 2018 by ALarson

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Gratefully, that one was the only instance I was personally involved with (I've never served as a Bishop).  I do work with abuse victims as part of my job though and I hear many, many similar stories (way too many) and I am personally involved with getting them help with healing (and recommending legal counsel if it applies).  I've also had some related to me by my Bishop and a family member (all in the past, but all very similar).  

Hopefully as more of these stories get told, there will continue to be more changes and more training for local leaders and we can learn from past mistakes.

I hope so too. I’m sorry you have had to deal with this kind of stuff. 

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

Yeah, there should be no mocking.  Members still defer to their leaders today.  I think more are learning they can say "no" to callings or take care of situations on their own without going to their Bishop for everything.  But it's still slow moving and still nonexistent for many.  Some go to their Bishop over such trivial matters....I feel for mine sometimes!

I just know that the great majority (close to all of them) are doing the very best they can and would love to have more help and training in areas such as this one.

I agree.  I’ve had mostly wonderful bishops.  How heartbreaking to hear of your experience!  I’m very sorry, but it’s good we’re getting better at dealing with abuse.  I think most are learning more with all the cases coming out (not just the church).

Edited July 3, 2018 by JulieM

[JulieM]

14 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

You've literally seen this happen? And what did you do about it???

What have you personally done to help victims of abuse or help with this issue?

I reflect on this myself and know there’s more I can do to involved and speak out more.

Edited July 3, 2018 by JulieM

[Tacenda]

Just saw this, haven't listened yet. https://radiofreemormon.org/2018/07/radio-free-mormon-035-radio-free-mormon-wins-a-victory-on-appeal/

[Hamba Tuhan]

On 7/4/2018 at 2:00 AM, JulieM said:

What have you personally done to help victims of abuse or help with this issue?

Thankfully, I've never known of a single instance of someone in the Church being sexually abused by another Church member. I do have a housemate who was sexually, verbally and physically abused by his entire family (father, mother, grandparents and step-mother) clear into his young adulthood. Finding the Church and being adopted into the family of the Saints has been a life-changer for him, but it takes more than that, so I took him into my home last year and, at this point, pretty much assume he's mine for the rest of my temporal life. He brings certain complications with him, but that's what happens when we get real about keeping covenants. He has told me multiple times that this is the first time in his life that he's ever felt safe, and I revel in being able to provide that security.

When I was Young Men president, we had a few boys in our ward whose parents were verbally or even physically abusive. I've always maintained an open-door policy with these boys, clear into their adulthood. I remember waking up one morning to find one of them asleep next to me! It freaked me out, but then I thought, well, he must feel safe here. (My next thought was that I needed to do better at locking the door before bed.)

I've been to court with a few of our boys so frequently that Legal Aid came to know me by sight and name. Usually, however, this was because they were in trouble themselves. The good news is that all three of our boys who ended up in court are currently doing OK. I had lunch with one of them two weekends ago. He and his wife are sealed in the temple and expecting their first child. This outcome was never guaranteed in the rough-and-tumble days of his adolescence. On one occasion, I drove 40km to pick him up from some bushes where he was hiding from his drunken, excommunicated father. Crazy.

When I first got called as Young Men president, we had a family in our ward that I worried were using the Church as a stick to metaphorically beat their children with. I shared my concerns with our bishop, and he actually called the family in and told them to stop it. Shortly after that, the family made the decision to move. Their son refused to go with and actually hid out in a pedestrian underpass till they left him. (He was 15, which is old enough in our jurisdiction not to be forced to go with his family.) His situation was messy after that, but the parents asked me if I would serve as his legal guardian in their absence, and I did so. I helped him secure a study allowance that paid for a room he could live in. I signed all his school forms, took him to doctor appointments, etc.

In fact, the first thing he had me do after his parents left was take him to a GP for a check-up. He'd been telling his mum for years that he didn't feel well, but she was a quack who completely distrusted the medical establishment and would just 'treat' him with herbs of various kinds. The doctor did blood tests and discovered that he had an iron deficiency. Supplements brought him back to life. He was so happy about that!

One very cold night the cops found him in the bus interchange completely unconscious next to a bottle of vodka. They said he'd been very close to death. I picked him up from the station and took him home to my room. (I was a student at the time and shared a place with three other men.) He slept on the floor next to my bed so that I could hold a bucket for him to spew in. The next morning I begged him never to do that again, and he never did. He no longer identifies as a Church member, but we're still in contact, and last year when he found himself in trouble (missed bus late at night), he knew he could ring me for a lift even though it took an hour or so to pick him up, drop him home and then get home again myself. Again, I'm glad that he's doing fine, all things considered.

Interestingly, his parents divorced, and only one of his sisters still lives with the mum. Even her own family apparently told her to stop using the Church as a tool of control, but she just wouldn't listen.

Edited July 13, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Calm]

In the past before my daughter's health issue, we were able to take in a couple of kids over the years who needed to get away from abusive parents.  One almost became permanent, but the mom found another family willing to take him in and talked him into leaving us. He regretted it big time as that family's kids resented him.  He came and stayed with us off and on when he had left home.

We have offered our home to more, but most did not take advantage of the offer.

It is one of the few things I really dislike about not being more energetic, no adopting, no fostering as we planned to do.

Unfortunately it is not that hard to become aware of a child or even an adult in need.  Figuring out how best to help is much harder.

[smac97]

On 6/21/2018 at 12:19 PM, smac97 said:

The hearing has been scheduled for the two motions to dismiss filed in the McKenna Denson case (the Church's and Bishop's).  The hearing is scheduled for 7/11/2018, at 10:30 AM in Room 3.400 before Judge Dale A. Kimball.

Thanks,

-Smac

I have tried to access the court system to get an update on the case, but PACER is not working for me at the moment.

Did anyone attend the hearing yesterday (July 11)?  I haven't heard anything in the news or online.  I suspect Judge Kimball took oral argument and then took the case "under advisement" (meaning he will take some time to render his decision, perhaps a few weeks).

Thanks,

-Smac

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Figuring out how best to help is much harder.

Yep, I'm pretty clueless, but I've just tried to be guided by the scriptures and my covenants, both of which compel me to open both heart and home to whoever needs help.

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Just saw this, haven't listened yet. https://radiofreemormon.org/2018/07/radio-free-mormon-035-radio-free-mormon-wins-a-victory-on-appeal/

Bill filed the appeal to get the redacted part un redacted?

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Duncan said:

Bill filed the appeal to get the redacted part un redacted?

Consig did it. 

[Duncan]

6 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Consig did it. 

sort this out, so radio free mormon is run by Consig but that isn't Bill but he runs another podcast? I feel like this is Three's Company!

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Duncan said:

sort this out, so radio free mormon is run by Consig but that isn't Bill but he runs another podcast? I feel like this is Three's Company!

Consig does the rfm podcast. 

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Consig does the rfm podcast. 

but he's not Bill I take it, so does he have any involvement? or is he involved with that one also?

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Duncan said:

but he's not Bill I take it, so does he have any involvement? or is he involved with that one also?

I think it’s kind of affiliated with Bill’s podcast. 

[Exiled]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I have tried to access the court system to get an update on the case, but PACER is not working for me at the moment.

Did anyone attend the hearing yesterday (July 11)?  I haven't heard anything in the news or online.  I suspect Judge Kimball took oral argument and then took the case "under advisement" (meaning he will take some time to render his decision, perhaps a few weeks).

Thanks,

-Smac

The hearing was continued to July 18 @ 10:30 am. I don't know why.

[provoman]

46 minutes ago, Duncan said:

but he's not Bill I take it, so does he have any involvement? or is he involved with that one also?

i think Bill provides the website and rfm provide rfm content

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

Bill filed the appeal to get the redacted part un redacted?

I don't know I haven't listened, my bad. ETA: looks like others answered you. Yep, it was definitely Consig...or/and the Trib filed too I thought.

Edited July 13, 2018 by Tacenda

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Consig does the rfm podcast. 

But the RFM (Radio Free Mormon) podcast isn't related to the RFM (Recovery from Mormonism) website...

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Thankfully, I've never known of a single instance of someone in the Church being sexually abused by another Church member. I do have a housemate who was sexually, verbally and physically abused by his entire family (father, mother, grandparents and step-mother) clear into his young adulthood. Finding the Church and being adopted into the family of the Saints has been a life-changer for him, but it takes more than that, so I took him into my home last year and, at this point, pretty much assume he's mine for the rest of my temporal life. He brings certain complications with him, but that's what happens when we get real about keeping covenants. He has told me multiple times that this is the first time in his life that he's ever felt safe, and I revel in being able to provide that security.

When I was Young Men president, we had a few boys in our ward whose parents were verbally or even physically abusive. I've always maintained an open-door policy with these boys, clear into their adulthood. I remember waking up one morning to find one of them asleep next to me! It freaked me out, but then I thought, well, he must feel safe here. (My next thought was that I needed to do better at locking the door before bed.)

I've been to court with a few of our boys so frequently that Legal Aid came to know me by sight and name. Usually, however, this was because they were in trouble themselves. The good news is that all three of our boys who ended up in court are currently doing OK. I had lunch with one of them two weekends ago. He and his wife are sealed in the temple and expecting their first child. This outcome was never guaranteed in the rough-and-tumble days of his adolescence. On one occasion, I drove 40km to pick him up from some bushes where he was hiding from his drunken, excommunicated father. Crazy.

When I first got called as Young Men president, we had a family in our ward that I worried were using the Church as a stick to metaphorically beat their children with. I shared my concerns with our bishop, and he actually called the family in and told them to stop it. Shortly after that, the family made the decision to move. Their son refused to go with and actually hid out in a pedestrian underpass till they left him. (He was 15, which is old enough in our jurisdiction not to be forced to go with his family.) His situation was messy after that, but the parents asked me if I would serve as his legal guardian in their absence, and I did so. I helped him secure a study allowance that paid for a room he could live in. I signed all his school forms, took him to doctor appointments, etc.

In fact, the first thing he had me do after his parents left was take him to a GP for a check-up. He'd been telling his mum for years that he didn't feel well, but she was a quack who completely distrusted the medical establishment and would just 'treat' him with herbs of various kinds. The doctor did blood tests and discovered that he had an iron deficiency. Supplements brought him back to life. He was so happy about that!

One very cold night the cops found him in the bus interchange completely unconscious next to a bottle of vodka. They said he'd been very close to death. I picked him up from the station and took him home to my room. (I was a student at the time and shared a place with three other men.) He slept on the floor next to my bed so that I could hold a bucket for him to spew in. The next morning I begged him never to do that again, and he never did. He no longer identifies as a Church member, but we're still in contact, and last year when he found himself in trouble (missed bus late at night), he knew he could ring me for a lift even though it took an hour or so to pick him up, drop him home and then get home again myself. Again, I'm glad that he's doing fine, all things considered.

Interestingly, his parents divorced, and only one of his sisters still lives with the mum. Even her own family apparently told her to stop using the Church as a tool of control, but she just wouldn't listen.

Hamba, you never seize to amaze me. When I was a RS Secretary I was in charge of the monthly newsletter, and remember putting in something about being Christ's hands, or something like that, to go with the theme that year. Well you personify that to a T!

Edited July 13, 2018 by Tacenda

[Hamba Tuhan]

17 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Hamba, you never seize to amaze me.

Thanks, Tacenda, but I genuinely think that this is just what life looks like when we make and then sincerely strive to keep gospel covenants.