jkwilliams Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 Just now, Scott Lloyd said: Just my own perception and analysis. Isn’t the motivation for this theft of proprietary information that he wants to force the Church leaders to be “transparent” becuse he doesn’t trust them to have decency and good character? Doesn’t that amount to “thinking the worst of people”? I can’t speak for him, but I don’t believe that’s the case.
ttribe Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 16 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Just seeking clarification. I don’t know who Mark Gillespie is, and I’ve only given casual attention at most to this thread, so I readily admit I don’t have all the dots connected. By the way, if consiglierie/RFM filed a GRAMA motion to force BYU police to provide an unredacted document, wouldn’t it be a fairly simple matter to find out his identity? I mean, it would be on the public record, right? (Not that I’m interested enough to do this myself.) 13 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I don’t know who Mark Gillespie is, but I do know who consiglieri is. Apparently his name is not public knowledge, so I won’t be sharing it. I’d imagine you could find out, as you say. I'm not going to disclose it, either. But, I don't think he's ever tried to be that shy about his IRL name.
jkwilliams Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 10 minutes ago, ttribe said: I'm not going to disclose it, either. But, I don't think he's ever tried to be that shy about his IRL name. I didn’t think so, either, but if it’s not known here, I’m not sharing it. I’ll just call him “He who must not be named” or “you know who.”
smac97 Posted July 17, 2018 Author Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: So Mark Gillespie = “Radio Free Mormon” = Consiglieri? No. I was being ironic. Mark Gillespie is the temple president from Taiwan. In the podcast she describes how she lied to Joseph Bishop about having an appointment with him (Gillespie) in order to induce Joseph Bishop to meet with her. My point was to illustrate how adept she is at fabricating embellishing details in a story that have a ring of authenticity, but which in truth are just big fat lies. She really damaged her own credibility in this podcast. Edited July 17, 2018 by smac97 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 4 hours ago, Calm said: On her Facebook page a few weeks ago iirc... Yeah, the last time you brought this up, I tried to find it on Facebook. Never did. A link would be nice.
smac97 Posted July 17, 2018 Author Posted July 17, 2018 3 hours ago, jkwilliams said: I like life better when I don’t think the worst of people. So do I. Unfortunately, we sometimes run across people whose behavior tends to frustrate those efforts. So when a fellow comes along and brags about how he's devised a plan to induce other people to engage in unethical or immoral behavior for him, and when he brags about how he is going to get away with such things without suffering any consequence to himself, while simultaneously throwing his patsies under the bus, well, the natural consequence is going to be to not think very highly of that sort of person. That's not cynicism. That's just surveying repellent and unseemly behavior and coming to a grim conclusion about it. -Smac 4
Calm Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Just seeking clarification. I don’t know who Mark Gillespie is, and I’ve only given casual attention at most to this thread, so I readily admit I don’t have all the dots connected. By the way, if consiglierie/RFM filed a GRAMA motion to force BYU police to provide an unredacted document, wouldn’t it be a fairly simple matter to find out his identity? I mean, it would be on the public record, right? (Not that I’m interested enough to do this myself.) He redacted it on the documents he released.
Popular Post kllindley Posted July 17, 2018 Popular Post Posted July 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, Calm said: He redacted it on the documents he released. Now that is rich! 5
Calm Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Yeah, the last time you brought this up, I tried to find it on Facebook. Never did. A link would be nice. Hopefully I got it straight last time, I got it a bit compressed today. Denson shared a post from Ron Karren where he thanks her and some others, including Kristy Knight if I get his heading correctly (not Kristy Johnson who as far as I can tell is going after her father for abusing her and wants Utah law changed so she can also go after the Church as she claims the Church prevented the police from following through on complaints in some way) who appears to believe Freemasons are taking over the world, sacrificing babies on church and temple alters, and the wealthy are using their blood to stay young....if I have deciphered her comments correctly. This is the post that Denson shared. https://www.facebook.com/ronaldmkarren/posts/1869937556403185 Knight's post thanking him and getting into the weird stuff is about four down. This is Denson's FB page that has the share: https://www.facebook.com/mckenna.denson.3 Knight writes a lot weird on Denson's page, from what I can tell Denson has not interacted with her directly. Personally I think Karren goes off the rails in his accusations as I read some of his documentation awhile back and it didn't prove what he appeared to think it proves. I don't know if Denson has to approve what is on her FB page, but there is a significant lack of negative commentary last time I hung out on it so someone is editing it as far as I can tell. That she accepts Knight's comments even in this limited fashion is a point against her credibility for me, but if someone can persuade me FB operates differently (I don't use it save for research on occasion, too hard to find stuff), I would be happy to withdraw my negative comments in this regard. Edited July 17, 2018 by Calm
Scott Lloyd Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 4 hours ago, ttribe said: I'm not going to disclose it, either. But, I don't think he's ever tried to be that shy about his IRL name. Hosting a podcast anonymously strikes me as a tad irregular.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 1 hour ago, kllindley said: Now that is rich! But he’s not shy about disclosing his irl identity. No siree!
kllindley Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: But he’s not shy about disclosing his irl identity. No siree! And he's so insistent on getting the unredacted names of other victims and anyone involved in the investigation made public. 3
Scott Lloyd Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, kllindley said: And he's so insistent on getting the unredacted names of other victims and anyone involved in the investigation made public. Yes, you’re right. The irony is palpable.
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 48 minutes ago, Calm said: I don't know if Denson has to approve what is on her FB page, but there is a significant lack of negative commentary last time I hung out on it so someone is editing it. That she accepts Knights comments even in this fashion is a point against her credibility for me, but if someone can persuade me FB operates differently (I don't use it save for research on occasion, too hard to find stuff), I would be happy to withdraw my negative comments in this regard. Thanks. I can see now that she shared the post on 26 June. That's more than just being tagged in it. But the crazy comments about sacrificing babies appear on the original post, not on her sharing of it. I'm not sure this is enough to suggest she accepts Knight's comments. My opinion.
Calm Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Thanks. I can see now that she shared the post on 26 June. That's more than just being tagged in it. But the crazy comments about sacrificing babies appear on the original post, not on her sharing of it. I'm not sure this is enough to suggest she accepts Knight's comments. My opinion. I agree, I haven't tracked Knight's posting on her site so now I think of it she might not have known who Knight was at the time ( I suspect the weirdness of babies on altars was so bad that I remembered that rather than Karren's comment...could have sworn there was a list of names Denson was thanking in supporting her that included Knight, but it has been a crowded month so that likely was a created memory or a mixup of the Kristys)...I still think getting involved with Karren is idiotic if Denson wants to be taken seriously though. I think I might have made that superposition of Denson with Karren because Denson has a post right below her share of Karren where she refers to "ritual abuse": Quote I want to be like this man ... but there are no concentration camps. There are, however, many many people suffering in the silent despair of sexual abuse, domestic abuse, ritual abuse and all manner of ‘unrighteous dominion’. I can’t do much but if my part is to provide a voice for them to come forward, take their power back and find the courage to speak their truth .... I can do that. If that creates safety for future generations and healing to occur then I’m ready to take a stand. I’m ready to own my place in history. I’m ready to help save thousands of unknown potential victims. Im ready to fight this battle. I’m ready to find my courage. Edited July 17, 2018 by Calm
Calm Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, jkwilliams said: I know there's been talk about identity fraud, but no details seem to be forthcoming. Do you know more about this than I do? (I'm sure you do.) I'm not saying she's 100% telling the truth, just that she's been depicted as some kind of deranged person, so either she's a great actor, or she's more credible than some people want me to believe. I suppose it will all out, as they say. All I can say for sure is that Bishop seems to have admitted that something untoward happened with at least one sister missionary. It makes my stomach hurt to know that was apparently happening while I was in the MTC. One newspaper reported it as she faked her exboyfriend's voice in an attempt to get utilities hooked up in his name last February iirc (and given my memory I wouldn't trust me ). I remember it only being reported in that much detail in one paper, so I will look for it for a bit, but not spend too much time. I get very conflicting impressions from her, claims she has made in detail and choices she had made make me raise my eyebrows as to how could she think that was a good idea and make me wonder about her impulse control while her personal appearance is quite poised and in control. I think my main position about her is one of caution. Otoh, I am quite comfortable and saying I believe Joseph Bishop is a narcissistic, abusive jerk though I don't know how far his abuse went. The only way I can deal with it is to think of it as a puzzle to solve while researching and kind of ignore there are real people involved (too many people I know have been abused, it is too overwhelming to try and dissect that experience). After I collect the research, then I focus on what it all means and get sickened by it all. Edited July 17, 2018 by Calm
Calm Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 Thankfully, I am usually good about referencing claims and it turns out Google is good at tracking down my past posts. Looks like it was a bit more than I remember.... This is the article that I think did the best at pulling together all the info outside of the additional info from RFM's publishing of Denson's draft letter and the police reports: Quote As recently as February, the woman was arrested in New Mexico on suspicion of identity theft. According to a police report, she used an ex-boyfriend's name and Social Security number to obtain utility services and to lease an apartment. Detectives obtained a phone recording wherein the woman posed as the ex-boyfriend, using his name, according to the police report. That case is pending https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-investigations/2018/03/24/amid-quiet-life-chandler-explosive-sexual-assault-allegations-hit-mormon-leader/449975002/ 3
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 4 hours ago, Calm said: Denson has a post right below her share of Karren where she refers to "ritual abuse": Oh dear.
Calm Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Oh dear. On several levels.
Kenngo1969 Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 8 hours ago, Calm said: Hopefully I got it straight last time, I got it a bit compressed today. Denson shared a post from Ron Karren where he thanks her and some others, including Kristy Knight if I get his heading correctly (not Kristy Johnson who as far as I can tell is going after her father for abusing her and wants Utah law changed so she can also go after the Church as she claims the Church prevented the police from following through on complaints in some way) who appears to believe Freemasons are taking over the world, sacrificing babies on church and temple alters, and the wealthy are using their blood to stay young....if I have deciphered her comments correctly. Oh, the people one "meets" in Cyber space!
mormondialoguethrowaway Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 7 hours ago, Calm said: Thankfully, I am usually good about referencing claims and it turns out Google is good at tracking down my past posts. Looks like it was a bit more than I remember.... This is the article that I think did the best at pulling together all the info outside of the additional info from RFM's publishing of Denson's draft letter and the police reports: https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-investigations/2018/03/24/amid-quiet-life-chandler-explosive-sexual-assault-allegations-hit-mormon-leader/449975002/ I had not heard of the identify theft and the false claim of being pistol whipped and locked in a trunk as mentioned in that article. I know the Fox 13 article has a decent summary. https://fox13now.com/2018/03/21/family-of-former-lds-mission-president-accused-of-sexual-assault-responds-to-allegations/ Quote Woman: "Pretended somebody in the [expletive] parking lot tried to rape me, because I was having an anxiety attack and I didn't want to tell anybody." Other incidents ranged from allegedly lying about cancer treatments for money, forging prescriptions, and DUI. Police documents show the woman also claimed a restaurant put razor blades in the icing of a chocolate cake—only for police, doctors and psychologists to say she did it intentionally. You mention that RFM published the police reports. Is a link to that still available and/or allowed by board rules?
Popular Post smac97 Posted July 17, 2018 Author Popular Post Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, mormondialoguethrowaway said: I had not heard of the identify theft and the false claim of being pistol whipped and locked in a trunk as mentioned in that article. I know the Fox 13 article has a decent summary. https://fox13now.com/2018/03/21/family-of-former-lds-mission-president-accused-of-sexual-assault-responds-to-allegations/ Wow. Somehow I missed this summary. Some highlights: Quote The family sent Fox 13 documents that list more than a half a dozen times the accuser claimed she was sexually or physically assaulted. One of those incidents was in 1999, where the woman claimed she was assaulted in a parking lot by two men, then asserted legal claims against her place of work for failing to have proper security. Police reports show the case was unfounded and states, "the complainant has confessed to providing misleading and incomplete information... " I knew about this one. Quote There was another claim of sexual assault made 10 years earlier while on her mission. The accuser says she was struggling with what Bishop did to her and wanted to go home. I knew about this one also. Quote Other incidents ranged from allegedly lying about cancer treatments for money, forging prescriptions, and DUI. Police documents show the woman also claimed a restaurant put razor blades in the icing of a chocolate cake—only for police, doctors and psychologists to say she did it intentionally. Lying about cancer treatments. Forging prescriptions. A scam re: razor blades in a cake. This bit of editorializing by Fox13 is interesting: Quote While Bishop's family is attempting to cast doubt on her character, during the recording Bishop appears to confess to assaulting other women. Fox 13 reached out to the accuser and she referred us to her attorney, who said she has certainly made mistakes but that the family's defense is a smear campaign aimed at discrediting her. First, Bishop's family is not only attempting to cast doubt on her character, they are succeeding. But they are doing so by simply pointing to what appear to be documented instances of substantial misconduct and dishonesty on her part. Note how her attorney doesn't deny any of the allegations against his client, and even seems to acknowledge them ("she has certainly made mistakes..."). So in the absence of any denial as to these allegations, particularly since her attorney had an opportunity to deny or explain them, I am going to accept these allegations as substantively accurate. Second, a "smear campaign" is defined as "a plan to discredit a public figure by making false or dubious accusations." The defining feature of a "smear campaign" in this case would be "false or dubious accusations" about McKenna Denson's character. The problem, though, is that most of the allegations against her appear to be substantively true. We have identity fraud regarding her boyfriend. And "at least two" false rape allegations (one of which was likely the one she admits to making while serving as a missionary in Washington D.C.). And false claims of being "pistol-whipped and locked in the trunk of a car by two men outside a restaurant where she had worked," except that police "learned she had been fired shortly before the incident and had made inquiries about the restaurant's security liability" and concluded that her report was "unfounded." And lying about cancer treatments. And forging prescriptions. And a scam re: razor blades in a cake. And drunk driving. Add to these her seeming inability to behave rationally. She destroyed the settlement negotiations her attorneys were working on for her. And she worked hard in the RFM podcast to destroy her own credibility as a witness by publicly bragging about what a superb liar she is. She is acting against her own interests. She has nearly destroyed any moral authority many others may have been willing to grant her. What a sad spectacle she is making of herself. These are not the decisions of a healthy-minded person. I am left to conclude that she has led, and continues to lead, a very troubled life. She appears to be being exploited, first by MormonLeaks, and more recently by Radio Free Mormon. The people behind these entities, Ryan McKnight of MormonLeaks and "Radio Free Mormon" guy (aka The-Guy-Who-Hides-Behind-the-Online-Pseudonym-"Consigliere"-But-We-Can-Trust-Him-Anyway-Because-Reasons), are finding her to be a convenient brickbat against the LDS Church, and so are giving her a megaphone and cheering her on, even as she destroys her own legal case and her own credibility and reputation in the process. Here's an interesting thought experiment: Will Ryan McKnight and the Trustworthy Mystery Man Behind Radio Free Mormon still be championing McKenna Denson in six months? Will they still be inviting her back for discussions? Advancing her narrative? Or will they perhaps find her utility as a weapon against the LDS Church to have waned, and so drop her and move on to the next person to exploit? Time will tell. The newsworthiness of McKenna Denson's narrative appears to be winding down. She clearly has had, and continues to have, a very troubled life. She has made some very poor decisions, and has compounded those poor decisions over time by making more poor decisions. She has also apparently been a victim of some evil behavior. But she also seems to have some extensive issues to work out in her life. Again, hers are not the decisions of a healthy-minded person. She continues to act erratically. She acts against her own self-interests. We also must acknowledge the misconduct by Joseph Bishop, the full extent of which remains unclear. And by Ms. Denson's stepfather, who she claims sexually abused her during her childhood. The long-term injuries inflicted by the misconduct of these persons have been significant. And what to make of Ms. Denson? For me, my present conclusions are that she is a very troubled person. She clearly needs a lot of help. Sadly, she seems to have sought "help" from people with ulterior motives, who see her as a useful weapon in their vendettas against the LDS Church, but who do not care about her actual well-being. They have actively assisted in Ms. Denson's self-destructive behavior. And I suspect they'll lose interest in her her pretty quick and move on to other exploitative efforts (in the case of Ryan McKnight, his efforts to exploit others for his own benefit are ongoing). So what happens to Ms. Denson? She has made a public spectacle of herself and her troubled past, with the eager assistance of feckless jerks who couldn't care less about her well-being, and who will abandon her forthwith. She has wrecked her reputation by publicly bragging about her skills in deceit and dishonesty (and by airing her past ethical/criminal misconduct). She has destroyed her lawsuit against the Church. She has estranged herself from the LDS community. So that leaves her . . . where? With what? What will happen to her? I end up with quite a bit of sympathy for Ms. Denson. I hope she stops her self-destructive behaviors and gets some help. I hope she finds peace and reconciliation. I also end up with quite a bit of disgust at the behaviors of the other participants in this imbroglio. Thanks, -Smac Edited July 17, 2018 by smac97 5
Exiled Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 17 minutes ago, smac97 said: We also must acknowledge the misconduct by Joseph Bishop. And by Ms. Denson's stepfather, who she claims sexually abused her during her childhood. The long-term injuries inflicted by the misconduct of these persons have been significant. I think you have to admit that without the recording and Bishop's confession of horrible acts, we wouldn't be talking about this. He made his own bed and should be made to lie in it, to whatever extent the law will allow at this late date. Another point, Bishop and other predators target the weak and troubled in order to have a good defense if they get caught. "Who will believe you?" Bishop asked Denson. That speaks volumes to me of how he and others of his ilk operate. 2
smac97 Posted July 17, 2018 Author Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Exiled said: I think you have to admit that without the recording and Bishop's confession of horrible acts, we wouldn't be talking about this. Yes, I acknowledge that. However, I am not sure that Ms. Denson will benefit from this public discussion. The LDS Church has already made substantial improvements in guarding against sexual improprieties. Ms. Denson's spectacle hasn't really changed much, except to destroy her reputation and air her troubles to the world. Quote He made his own bed and should be made to lie in it, to whatever extent the law will allow at this late date. Alas, he will not face legal consequences "at this late date." The statute of limitations is almost certain to bar Ms. Denson's claims against him. I think the best that Ms. Denson could have hoped for, legally speaking, was a confidential settlement from the Church. But she destroyed her own attorney's settlement negotiations, so that's that. The courts cannot provide a remedy here. Thanks, -Smac Edited July 17, 2018 by smac97
Exiled Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, smac97 said: Yes, I acknowledge that. However, I am not sure that Ms. Denson will benefit from this public discussion. The LDS Church has already made substantial improvements in guarding against sexual improprieties. Ms. Denson's spectacle hasn't really changed much, except to destroy her reputation and air her troubles to the world. Alas, he will not face legal consequences "at this late date." The statute of limitations is almost certain to bar Ms. Denson's claims against him. I think the best that Ms. Denson could have hoped for, legally speaking, was a confidential settlement from the Church. But she destroyed her own attorney's settlement negotiations, so that's that. The courts cannot provide a remedy here. Thanks, -Smac I'll admit that it really seems that Ms. Denson just wanted to shine the spotlight on Bishop and her attorney wants a little publicity so he can get other similar cases with a better chance to succeed. I think the attorney from Idaho has gone against the church a bunch. In any event, I wouldn't be surprised if J. Kimball dismisses part or all of the claim but gives a chance to amend. This seems to be what happens whenever I am in Fed Court regarding a motion to dismiss.
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