The Nehor Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 5 minutes ago, Danzo said: The us did not restrict immigration at that time anyway. Restrictions on immigration didn't come later, I believe it was the Anti Chineese acts of the 1870s Yeah, we really need to delete the whole “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free” thing off the Statue of Liberty. It has become a grotesque joke at this point. 1
Danzo Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 7 minutes ago, strappinglad said: Perhaps not, but if hundreds of arguably the " best and brightest " over the decades have been unable to formulate a good immigration law , what chance is there? What proposal do you have that would balance secure borders with compassion for those fleeing oppression ? 45 and the Congress is all hair and ears I'm sure. Again with the snark... sorry. I think you're reaching a bit.
jkwilliams Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 Just now, Danzo said: I think you're reaching a bit. True, when I think of "the best and brightest," I don't think of Congress. 1
The Nehor Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: No worries. I would support a guest-worker bill similar to the one in Utah (HB 116) that the church supported. The braceros program worked well for over 20 years. I don't understand why it has to be an all-or-nothing issue. Clearly, the current system isn't working. I doubt building a wall is going to change much but get some construction companies rich. The wall will probably be an ecological nightmare and almost certainly ineffective but hey, if the check from Mexico clears, I am okay with it. When is that arriving by the way? 1
Calm Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 7 minutes ago, strappinglad said: Perhaps not, but if hundreds of arguably the " best and brightest " over the decades have been unable to formulate a good immigration law , what chance is there? What proposal do you have that would balance secure borders with compassion for those fleeing oppression ? 45 and the Congress is all hair and ears I'm sure. Again with the snark... sorry. I would love it if politicians and those working with them would be willing to scrap an entire system and start from scratch. Good law might actually show up in that case. There is a huge problem, imo, that previous law systems are built upon with only a few aspects at a time really being changed. If the system is broke, such changes aren't going to fix it, imo. The health care and immigration law systems are among the ones that appear to be past the point of no return to me. 1
halconero Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) Those citing Article of Faith 12 need to consider the following: - It should be read in light of D&C 134. Especially the part about administering the law in justice and equity, and whether those terms fit the proportionality of the punishments meted for what’s legally a misdemeanour. - That priesthood keys can direct the Church in saying that laws are stupid, and mercy should be applied, and that trumps whatever pharasaical adherence to text demands. - That by covenant and revelation this land is only temporarily in the hands of the Gentiles, and ultimate ownership lies innthe hands of the children of Lehi. Edited June 19, 2018 by halconero 3
jkwilliams Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 Just now, halconero said: Those citing Article of Faith 12 need to consider the following: - It should be read in light of D&C 134. Especially the part about administering the law in justice and equity, and whether those terms fit the proportionality of the punishments meted our for what’s legally a misdemeanour. - That priesthood keys can direct the Church in saying that laws are stupid, and mercy should be applied, and that trumps whatever pharasaical adherence to text demands. - That by covenant and revelation this land is only temporarily in the hands of the Gentiles, and ultimate ownership lies innthe hands of the children of Lehi. Yep. Current federal law does not require the zero-tolerance policies that led to this issue of separating children from their families. The administration chose to do what it is doing, regardless of any legal imperative.
strappinglad Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 18 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Yeah, we really need to delete the whole “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free” thing off the Statue of Liberty. It has become a grotesque joke at this point. When the Statue of Liberty was erected the population of the US was about 75 million. About 250 million more live in the US now. Huddled masses are found living on the streets of major cities like LA. 1
jkwilliams Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 Just now, strappinglad said: When the Statue of Liberty was erected the population of the US was about 75 million. About 250 million more live in the US now. Huddled masses are found living on the streets of major cities like LA. Are you suggesting that the problem with homelessness is a result of immigration?
USU78 Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 24 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Yeah, we really need to delete the whole “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free” thing off the Statue of Liberty. It has become a grotesque joke at this point. Sorry, Nehor, but the implicit demonization of those who don't buy that line of argument isn't helpful. Kinda reminds me of:
jkwilliams Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 2 minutes ago, USU78 said: Sorry, Nehor, but the implicit demonization of those who don't buy that line of argument isn't helpful. Kinda reminds me of: Seems to be plenty of demonizing on both sides, unfortunately.
Calm Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 23 minutes ago, halconero said: Those citing Article of Faith 12 need to consider the following: - It should be read in light of D&C 134. Especially the part about administering the law in justice and equity, and whether those terms fit the proportionality of the punishments meted for what’s legally a misdemeanour. - That priesthood keys can direct the Church in saying that laws are stupid, and mercy should be applied, and that trumps whatever pharasaical adherence to text demands. - That by covenant and revelation this land is only temporarily in the hands of the Gentiles, and ultimate ownership lies innthe hands of the children of Lehi. Why do you not visit us more often?
Calm Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Are you suggesting that the problem with homelessness is a result of immigration? I read it as more we needed immigrants to fill the land. Now the land is already taken, one sign of which is homelessness. He can correct me if wrong as always. Edited June 19, 2018 by Calm
bluebell Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 1 hour ago, mnn727 said: A of F 12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. God believes in following the law as well, but that does not stop him from being merciful. Why should it stop us? I don’t see how Article of faith #12 can justify not having compassion. Looking back at your life, and remembering that the scriptures teach that everything is spiritual, are you prepared to argue against the application of mercy for those who break laws? I’m not.
strappinglad Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 Homelessness , like immigration is proving intractable. Huddled masses are found in many places around the world, including the streets of the US. The causes of homelessness are many : lack of affordable housing, mental health issues, addiction issues, ambition issues, etc. . Personally I don't see much of a link between homelessness and immigration , except perhaps a lack of political will to address the problems.
USU78 Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, bluebell said: God believes in following the law as well, but that does not stop him from being merciful. Why should it stop us? I don’t see how Article of faith #12 can justify not having compassion. Looking back at your life, and remembering that the scriptures teach that everything is spiritual, are you prepared to argue against the application of mercy for those who break laws? I’m not. Why assume a lack of compassion? 1
The Nehor Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 55 minutes ago, USU78 said: Why assume a lack of compassion? Because a lack of compassion has been demonstrated.
The Nehor Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 1 hour ago, strappinglad said: When the Statue of Liberty was erected the population of the US was about 75 million. About 250 million more live in the US now. Huddled masses are found living on the streets of major cities like LA. There have always been homeless even back when we only had 75 million. 1
The Nehor Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 1 hour ago, USU78 said: Sorry, Nehor, but the implicit demonization of those who don't buy that line of argument isn't helpful. Kinda reminds me of: I was too subtle. I was going for explicit demonization.
bluebell Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 57 minutes ago, USU78 said: Why assume a lack of compassion? Because "If they want to immigrate let them do it legally and their kids will not be taken" is a statement devoid of compassion.
Stargazer Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 9 hours ago, Gray said: Some of them are fleeing from the worst danger, seeking asylum. I don't know that they're aware of the new inhuman policies the current administration has enacted, until it's too late. An awful lot of these children are completely unaccompanied. In some cases they are accompanying adults who are not their parents. And this is nothing new. The problem has been growing like crazy and Trump isn't the monster so many are claiming. Here's a wikipedia article on part of the problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_American_immigration_crisis I know its been said here that it is all Trump's fault that the policy of detaining these children is because Trump is enforcing a law that went unenforced under Obama. That turns out to be false information. https://lawandcrime.com/immigration/obamas-immigration-agencies-separated-children-from-their-families-too-2/ Obama administration "losing" illegal immigrant children: http://freebeacon.com/national-security/obama-admin-losing-track-illegal-immigrant-children/ Obama administration placed illegal immigrant children with human traffickers (from WAPO and under possible pay wall, so the first few paragraphs are shown below the link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/obama-administration-placed-children-with-human-traffickers-report-says/2016/01/28/39465050-c542-11e5-9693-933a4d31bcc8_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.f45fb9ae1e7b Obama administration placed children with human traffickers, report says The Obama administration failed to protect thousands of Central American children who have flooded across the U.S. border since 2011, leaving them vulnerable to traffickers and to abuses at the hands of government-approved caretakers, a Senate investigation has found. The Office of Refugee Resettlement, an agency of the Department of Health and Human Services, failed to do proper background checks of adults who claimed the children, allowed sponsors to take custody of multiple unrelated children, and regularly placed children in homes without visiting the locations, according to a 56-page investigative report released Thursday. And once the children left federally funded shelters, the report said, the agency permitted their adult sponsors to prevent caseworkers from providing them post-release services. One of the biggest floods of illegals are unaccompanied children. https://yellowhammernews.com/obama-administration-proposes-housing-illegal-immigrant-children-alabama/ Obama administration delivering illegal immigrant children to predators: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jan/28/obama-administration-delivered-illegal-immigrant-c/ I'M TRYING TO TELL YOU THAT THERE IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM, AND UNLESS SOMEONE CLAMPS DOWN ON THIS, WITH A WALL, OR *SOMETHING*, IT WILL ONLY GET WORSE. You can argue all you want about separating families, but the situation is NOT as simple as "Stop doing that". I agree with the church's sentiment that families shouldn't be separated, that its bad for the kids, but if the illegals expect that they can and will get away with it, they will keep coming. And too many of them are NOT families. It's not just Trump's fault, and it's not just Obama's fault. And pretending there is a magic wand to make everything into "nice" is not going to work. 2
kllindley Posted June 19, 2018 Posted June 19, 2018 9 minutes ago, Stargazer said: An awful lot of these children are completely unaccompanied. In some cases they are accompanying adults who are not their parents. And this is nothing new. The problem has been growing like crazy and Trump isn't the monster so many are claiming. Here's a wikipedia article on part of the problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_American_immigration_crisis I know its been said here that it is all Trump's fault that the policy of detaining these children is because Trump is enforcing a law that went unenforced under Obama. That turns out to be false information. https://lawandcrime.com/immigration/obamas-immigration-agencies-separated-children-from-their-families-too-2/ Obama administration "losing" illegal immigrant children: http://freebeacon.com/national-security/obama-admin-losing-track-illegal-immigrant-children/ Obama administration placed illegal immigrant children with human traffickers (from WAPO and under possible pay wall, so the first few paragraphs are shown below the link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/obama-administration-placed-children-with-human-traffickers-report-says/2016/01/28/39465050-c542-11e5-9693-933a4d31bcc8_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.f45fb9ae1e7b Obama administration placed children with human traffickers, report says The Obama administration failed to protect thousands of Central American children who have flooded across the U.S. border since 2011, leaving them vulnerable to traffickers and to abuses at the hands of government-approved caretakers, a Senate investigation has found. The Office of Refugee Resettlement, an agency of the Department of Health and Human Services, failed to do proper background checks of adults who claimed the children, allowed sponsors to take custody of multiple unrelated children, and regularly placed children in homes without visiting the locations, according to a 56-page investigative report released Thursday. And once the children left federally funded shelters, the report said, the agency permitted their adult sponsors to prevent caseworkers from providing them post-release services. One of the biggest floods of illegals are unaccompanied children. https://yellowhammernews.com/obama-administration-proposes-housing-illegal-immigrant-children-alabama/ Obama administration delivering illegal immigrant children to predators: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jan/28/obama-administration-delivered-illegal-immigrant-c/ I'M TRYING TO TELL YOU THAT THERE IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM, AND UNLESS SOMEONE CLAMPS DOWN ON THIS, WITH A WALL, OR *SOMETHING*, IT WILL ONLY GET WORSE. You can argue all you want about separating families, but the situation is NOT as simple as "Stop doing that". I agree with the church's sentiment that families shouldn't be separated, that its bad for the kids, but if the illegals expect that they can and will get away with it, they will keep coming. And too many of them are NOT families. It's not just Trump's fault, and it's not just Obama's fault. And pretending there is a magic wand to make everything into "nice" is not going to work. I've been reluctant to draw any conclusions about the current situation, in large part because so much of the media is completely biased. This post is very well sourced and soundly argued. I'm not completely sure that it sways my opinion in favor of the current administration. However, for me it further confirms my conclusion that I cannot trust most media. The fact that this information is not even acknowledged in most reports and articles is a serious indictment of modern "journalistic integrity." Overall, I strongly support immigration. The research is very clear that it has a positive impact on economic and social factors. I generally don't think that stopping immigration is the solution. I think we need to make it easier and faster to immigrate legally. To be clear: I'm not defending illegal immigration; I'm saying the answer isn't to tell immigrants to "stop doing that." Because we need them and the current laws are beyond ridiculous. https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900022114/op-ed-lds-moral-commitments-on-immigration-are-grounded-in-history-and-scripture.com
jkwilliams Posted June 20, 2018 Posted June 20, 2018 21 minutes ago, kllindley said: I've been reluctant to draw any conclusions about the current situation, in large part because so much of the media is completely biased. This post is very well sourced and soundly argued. I'm not completely sure that it sways my opinion in favor of the current administration. However, for me it further confirms my conclusion that I cannot trust most media. The fact that this information is not even acknowledged in most reports and articles is a serious indictment of modern "journalistic integrity." Overall, I strongly support immigration. The research is very clear that it has a positive impact on economic and social factors. I generally don't think that stopping immigration is the solution. I think we need to make it easier and faster to immigrate legally. To be clear: I'm not defending illegal immigration; I'm saying the answer isn't to tell immigrants to "stop doing that." Because we need them and the current laws are beyond ridiculous. https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900022114/op-ed-lds-moral-commitments-on-immigration-are-grounded-in-history-and-scripture.com I’m not sure Stargazer’s sources are any more trustworthy than mainstream media sources. If anything that post was a reminder of the perils of only reading from sources that you agree with.
kllindley Posted June 20, 2018 Posted June 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I’m not sure Stargazer’s sources are any more trustworthy than mainstream media sources. If anything that post was a reminder of the perils of only reading from sources that you agree with. I am particularly focused on the news articles that were published before Trump was even elected. One of those was the Washington Post. The sources he cited didn't deny that there is a current problem. The majority of reports that I have seen do attempt to deny that anything like this was happening under Obama.
Rajah Manchou Posted June 20, 2018 Posted June 20, 2018 7 hours ago, Stargazer said: I thought that was a pretty bad thing, too, and it worried me. Upon further investigation, I found that the 1500 children didn't get lost because they slipped through the floorboards in the custodial facility. As I mentioned, the policy in case of those parents whose cases were not going quickly was to give them into the custody of other family members. The 1500 children that got lost were the ones the feds handed out to their apparent next of kin who were already in-country. They got "lost" because those custodians failed to report back with the kids. Presumably because they were trying to avoid ICE deporting them. So let me get this right: (1) Someone carries their child across the US border; (2) That person is apprehended by ICE; (3) Their child is given out to someone, hopefully a relative; (4) That person disappears with the child because they don't want to be apprehended. So, is the child lost or not? If not lost, where are they. If you say they are in custody of a person without an address or phone number who is trying to evade contact, it would seem there is a problem. 7 hours ago, Stargazer said: If you listened to the video, it was mentioned that Mexican drug cartels were sending operatives across the border with children not their own, just to take advantage of the policy of non-enforcement in those cases. Were these children orphans, abductees, or were they bought and paid for? There's a lot of bad things happening on the border, and it isn't by any stretch of the imagination just Trump's enforcement of the border crossing laws. One thing that helps in these situations is to consider what your reaction to the issue would be if the President or Party you don't like was responsible. What would your reaction be if Fox & Friends had a one hour segment on how the Obama administration lost track of 1500 children? Would you think differently about the issue if someone else was to blame? I find it much easier to think clearly on political issues if I try to frame things fairly.
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