Missionary work and Gays

[aussieguy55]

Years ago I was having a conversation with a guy who had served a mission in New York. This was before 1978  change in the priesthood issue. He told me that when they door knocked homes and came across an African American family they would if invited give them the first lesson. The family would have to ask the missionaries to come back again and again. They were treated differently to white families in being persistent in giving the discussions. Now that gay marriage is gradually becoming legal in many countries what will the missionaries do when they door knock a gay couple? Will they present the discussions and persist. Would there be a demand for a change in their relationship if they were to be baptized?

[Jeanne]

My cousin was a missionary in the early 60's..they were invited back..but were told by the church..not to persist..whatever that means.

[Jeanne]

Forgive me...another post...but..what can you do with gay families..the church kind of says...no go...and if they have children..what?  Forget it.  It will hurt deeply..just dust your feet and walk on and walk off to some fo the best Latter Day Saints that there might ever be.

[Kenngo1969]

What do you mean by "demand"?  As I'm sure you know, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God, and that sex outside of marriage is wrong ...  No one will take away your right (nor will anyone take away anyone else's right) to disagree with those teachings if you (or if s/he) wish(es).  No more would the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints offer the opportunity for membership in good standing to a gay married couple than it would to an unmarried couple.  Yes, the changes one might be asked to make in one's life in order to become or to remain a member of the Church of Jesus Christ in good standing may, from one perspective, entail enormous earthly sacrifices.  I suppose one's willingness to make such sacrifices hinges on what s/he believes God expects of him or her and on what s/he believes God will give him or her in return.

Quote

 

Mark 8:35-37 KJV

35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.

36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

 

Quote

 

Matthew 16:24-26 KJV

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

 

Quote

 

Matthew 19:29 KJV

29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

 

Quote

 

Matthew 10:37 KJV

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

 

http://www.ldsliving.com/Watch-A-Lesbian-Couple-Shares-Why-They-Divorced-to-Join-the-Church-in-Powerful-Video/s/86166/

[smac97]

1 hour ago, aussieguy55 said:

Years ago I was having a conversation with a guy who had served a mission in New York. This was before 1978  change in the priesthood issue. He told me that when they door knocked homes and came across an African American family they would if invited give them the first lesson. The family would have to ask the missionaries to come back again and again. They were treated differently to white families in being persistent in giving the discussions. Now that gay marriage is gradually becoming legal in many countries what will the missionaries do when they door knock a gay couple? Will they present the discussions and persist. Would there be a demand for a change in their relationship if they were to be baptized?

I wonder if the Church will take a stance somewhat similar to polygamist families.  As I understand it, polygamist families are not taught because joining the Church would require the dissolution/destruction of the family.  The Church removes or mitigates the difficulty of that situation by not having missionaries enter into it in the first place (by not teaching same-sex couples at all).

If a same-sex couple were to ask for lessons, I think the missionaries would need to be up-front about the barrier to baptism that exists in such relationships.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, aussieguy55 said:

Years ago I was having a conversation with a guy who had served a mission in New York. This was before 1978  change in the priesthood issue. He told me that when they door knocked homes and came across an African American family they would if invited give them the first lesson. The family would have to ask the missionaries to come back again and again. They were treated differently to white families in being persistent in giving the discussions. Now that gay marriage is gradually becoming legal in many countries what will the missionaries do when they door knock a gay couple? Will they present the discussions and persist. Would there be a demand for a change in their relationship if they were to be baptized?

I have not talked to any missionaries about this so I really don't know the current directions given to missionaries. However, I don't see any reason not to teach whoever answers the door if they are interested in the message of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. 

As a church, we are committed to teaching everyone and everyone is a sinner. The specific form of sin is irrelevant.  Our message is to invite all to follow the Savior and Redeemer of the world. It is their choice to follow or not.  

While on my mission we taught a wonderful family in southern France.  Everyone - mom, dad, and two older children - accepted to be baptized.  It came down to the baptismal interview and it was understood that the man and woman were not married legally and they were not planning on getting married in the near future.  There was an issue with the first husband and alimony or some form of payment that would be negated if she got married.  The children - one 15 and one 22 - were both baptized.  Missionaries find situations where individuals choose not to repent and be worthy to be baptized. The reasons are individual and personal.  We should never put ourselves in the position of determining how a person will choose prior to actually teaching them first. 

[carbon dioxide]

3 hours ago, aussieguy55 said:

Years ago I was having a conversation with a guy who had served a mission in New York. This was before 1978  change in the priesthood issue. He told me that when they door knocked homes and came across an African American family they would if invited give them the first lesson. The family would have to ask the missionaries to come back again and again. They were treated differently to white families in being persistent in giving the discussions. Now that gay marriage is gradually becoming legal in many countries what will the missionaries do when they door knock a gay couple? Will they present the discussions and persist. Would there be a demand for a change in their relationship if they were to be baptized?

Perhaps every mission will have a different policy on this.  I suppose they could present the discussion if they wanted but I don't see the need in persisting.  The odds of such a couple deciding to get a divorce to be baptized is probably pretty small.  When I was a missionary in ancient times we were instructed to avoid teaching jews for whatever reason.   I don't know if that has changed.   I suppose the same could apply to these situations.  Just be friendly but move on.

Edited May 27, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[Eek!]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

I wonder if the Church will take a stance somewhat similar to polygamist families.  As I understand it, polygamist families are not taught because joining the Church would require the dissolution/destruction of the family. 

We taught an African family in France and the whole family was golden.  They were so excited to get baptized.  The father was a diplomat, but theirs was a poor country, so he did not have much money.  Their apartment had hardly any furniture - they had us sit in their two chairs when we taught them.  Anyway he somehow managed to buy airline tickets for his other children back in Africa to come to France and be baptized too... along with his other wife.  We found out about his other wife when we met her at their apartment not long before the baptism date.  We were instructed by the mission president to tell them no, that we could not go through with the baptisms. 

I don't know what the solution is, but that was awful for everyone involved.  Nearly forty years later it still feels like we betrayed him and his family. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Eek!

[LittleNipper]

1 hour ago, Eek! said:

We taught an African family in France and the whole family was golden.  They were so excited to get baptized.  The father was a diplomat, but theirs was a poor country, so he did not have much money.  Their apartment had hardly any furniture - they had us sit in their two chairs when we taught them.  Anyway he somehow managed to buy airline tickets for his other children back in Africa to come to France and be baptized too... along with his other wife.  We found out about his other wife when we met her at their apartment not long before the baptism date.  We were instructed by the mission president to tell them no, that we could not go through with the baptisms. 

I don't know what the solution is, but that was awful for everyone involved.  Nearly forty years later it still feels like we betrayed him and his family. 

As a Christian, I don't see how the sins of the Father has any effect on his children's immersion. If they professed CHRIST as their personal Savior, they should have been baptized. 

[JAHS]

When I saw the title of this it made me wonder what happens if a missionary finds out if his companion is gay. How would that affect the companionship?
Would they allow that gay missionary to stay out in the field so long as he has not acted on his sexual preference? 

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

When I saw the title of this it made me wonder what happens if a missionary finds out if his companion is gay. How would that affect the companionship?
Would they allow that gay missionary to stay out in the field so long as he has not acted on his sexual preference? 

If a young woman or a young man is worthy to serve a mission and is serving faithfully, then it does not matter what their temptations are.  If there is a problem then the companion needs some serious repentance - not the gay one.  

It should be remembered that God has invited us all to "come follow me". There are no qualifications IF we respond to the call.  To follow is to obey - to take upon ourselves the name of Christ and seek to emulate all that he did and does. If an individual sinner is worthy to serve a mission then serve.  

I don't think it is healthy to discuss our life of sin - focus on the work and being a disciple of Jesus Christ. 

[Gray]

6 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I have not talked to any missionaries about this so I really don't know the current directions given to missionaries. However, I don't see any reason not to teach whoever answers the door if they are interested in the message of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. 

As a church, we are committed to teaching everyone and everyone is a sinner. The specific form of sin is irrelevant.  Our message is to invite all to follow the Savior and Redeemer of the world. It is their choice to follow or not.  

 

Isn't there some kind of policy against teaching Muslims in Muslim-majority countries?

[longview]

20 minutes ago, Gray said:

Isn't there some kind of policy against teaching Muslims in Muslim-majority countries?

The Church recognizes the danger for moslems even in other nations including Christian ones.  They are aware of the barbaric nature of Sharia Law that mandates death to those that leave Islam.  Honor killings do occur among families in the west.

[jpv]

7 hours ago, smac97 said:

I wonder if the Church will take a stance somewhat similar to polygamist families.  As I understand it, polygamist families are not taught because joining the Church would require the dissolution/destruction of the family.  The Church removes or mitigates the difficulty of that situation by not having missionaries enter into it in the first place (by not teaching same-sex couples at all).

If a same-sex couple were to ask for lessons, I think the missionaries would need to be up-front about the barrier to baptism that exists in such relationships.

Thanks,

-Smac

Which is a real shame as those individuals are living and believing 99% of the Restored Gospel anyways.

Count me as one against the polygamist children policy just as much, and even more so as the children of gays policy.  

Assuming being against both is an unpopular opinion. Curious how many others feel this way.

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, smac97 said:

I wonder if the Church will take a stance somewhat similar to polygamist families.  As I understand it, polygamist families are not taught because joining the Church would require the dissolution/destruction of the family.  The Church removes or mitigates the difficulty of that situation by not having missionaries enter into it in the first place (by not teaching same-sex couples at all).

If a same-sex couple were to ask for lessons, I think the missionaries would need to be up-front about the barrier to baptism that exists in such relationships.

Thanks,

-Smac

WWJD?

[mfbukowski]

Not gonna happen.

At this point gays know the church policy.

That is like thinking black folks would join the kkk.

[Marginal Gains]

28 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Not gonna happen.

At this point gays know the church policy.

That is like thinking black folks would join the kkk.

I mean, wow! The Church is to gays what the KKK is to blacks? Interesting that you place Church policy on gays as akin to KKK’s policy on blacks.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Marginal Gains

[Hamba Tuhan]

When I was serving as a zone leader, I interviewed a man for baptism. Before his first missionary visit, he had embraced a homosexual identity and lived as an openly gay man for 12 years. The first Elders who knocked on his door and left him with a copy of the Book of Mormon told him they'd go back and check on him and his interest in the book later. He waited for nearly a year for the next visit, which was just a random instance of door-knocking again. He said he was confused that the first Elders never returned as promised. I had no way of knowing for certain, but I always suspected the missionaries had decided on his behalf that his 'gayness' was too large an obstacle and so never returned. If so, that's a shame. I've found one should never make such decisions for other people. We invite all people everywhere to repent, and then they get to decide how to respond to that invitation.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

Isn't there some kind of policy against teaching Muslims in Muslim-majority countries?

No. Commonly Islamic republics have laws or policies against proselytising Muslims, and the Church seeks to obey those restrictions, but otherwise our missionaries just teach anyone. For example, we now have two stakes in Indonesia (about 85% Muslim). Unless things have changed greatly since I was last there, most Indonesian Latter-day Saints will have been Muslims previously.

We have a member in our ward who was baptised in Islamabad, Pakistan (about 95% Muslim). Although our branches there do not show up in online applications, I think he said there are about seven of them.* Having no personal experience, I can't say how many Muslims convert there, but the Church does send missionaries.

2 hours ago, longview said:

The Church recognizes the danger for moslems even in other nations including Christian ones.

Nonsense. My Muslim friend was at church again yesterday and meets again with the missionaries tomorrow. We have at least two other former Muslims in our ward. The only direction our missionaries have received here is not to baptise any Muslims who are not permanent residents and will need to return to nations where their conversions will put them at risk. This is, for example, the case with Iranians. We had one who regularly attended church for some time and wished to be baptised, but we couldn't do it since he was required to return to Iran. This would not be a problem for temporary residents who are returning to Indonesia or Bangladesh, for example -- both Muslim-majority nations that protect the right of religious choice.

7 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

When I was a missionary in ancient times we were instructed to avoid teaching jews for whatever reason.

Odd. I served in the 90s in an area with a large Jewish presence. We actually had supplementary materials from Church headquarters instructing us how to adapt the lessons to better serve Jewish investigators. I think nearly every ward I served in had at least one Jewish convert in it, sometimes several.

Yesterday in church I sat next to one of our most recent converts, formerly Jewish.

-----

*ETA: This site says that as of 2015, we had 15 branches and three districts in Pakistan.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Alan]

Here in the UK the mission president has to interview any prospective foreign Muslim convert prior to baptism to enquire whether they intent to return to their country and, if so, if their life will be in danger.

[Storm Rider]

8 hours ago, Gray said:

Isn't there some kind of policy against teaching Muslims in Muslim-majority countries?

Within Islam should a Muslim convert they can be killed and those who converted the individual may also be killed. Within Muslim nations that allow missionaries to be in their country - they are not called missionaries - and they are not allowed to proselyte. Given that conversion can develop into murder the Church is very careful to determine if the individual can live safely.  It is a delicate issue.  

On my mission in France I never knowlingly had the opportunity to teach a Muslim. 

[longview]

2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Within Islam should a Muslim convert they can be killed and those who converted the individual may also be killed. Within Muslim nations that allow missionaries to be in their country - they are not called missionaries - and they are not allowed to proselyte. Given that conversion can develop into murder the Church is very careful to determine if the individual can live safely.  It is a delicate issue.  

On my mission in France I never knowlingly had the opportunity to teach a Muslim. 

My son served a mission in Munich Germany back in 1999.  He was teaching two moslem men.  They wanted to be baptised but since they had to return to Afghanistan the Church had to withhold this blessing.

8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Nonsense. My Muslim friend was at church again yesterday and meets again with the missionaries tomorrow. We have at least two other former Muslims in our ward.

I am glad moslems are willing to embrace the Gospel and to stand against death threats (which is probably relatively uncommon).  There is a middle eastern family in my ward (the mother wears a hijab).  But still, the Koran does explicitly require the death penalty on apostates and those things DO occur just about everywhere.

[Amulek]

19 hours ago, aussieguy55 said:

Now that gay marriage is gradually becoming legal in many countries what will the missionaries do when they door knock a gay couple? Will they present the discussions and persist. Would there be a demand for a change in their relationship if they were to be baptized?

I think smac is on target with his remarks. The church seems hesitant to break up families, and I suspect mission policies with respect to gay families will probably end up being similar to the church's policies pertaining to polygamous families.

Let's be real though - it isn't like there is a huge population of gay families who are willing to get divorced in order to join the church in the first place. I'm not saying that situation would never happen, but it's going to be a rare thing - even more rare than polygamists wanting to join the church I suspect.

 

[Amulek]

14 hours ago, JAHS said:

When I saw the title of this it made me wonder what happens if a missionary finds out if his companion is gay. How would that affect the companionship?
Would they allow that gay missionary to stay out in the field so long as he has not acted on his sexual preference? 

We had gay elders serving in my mission. So long as you keep the commandments, including the law of chastity, there is no reason why you cannot serve an honorable full time mission.

 

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

I mean, wow! The Church is to gays what the KKK is to blacks? Interesting that you place Church policy on gays as akin to KKK’s policy on blacks.

I suggest you look up the definition of "like"

Of course it is clear anyway that you do not understand metaphor, Mr. Literal.

When one reads Shakespeare when he says "Juliett is the sun" he is not saying she is a hot ball of gas. Shocking, I know.