provoman Posted May 6, 2018 Posted May 6, 2018 Members in at least one stake were sent an email that includes a copy and paste from focus on the family promoting opposistion to a proposed law that would outlaw conversion therapy?
JAHS Posted May 6, 2018 Posted May 6, 2018 (edited) Here's what I got: A bill threatening free speech and religious freedom has passed the California State Assembly and is moving through the State Senate. AB 2943 is a wide-reaching piece of legislation that threatens churches and counselors with lawsuits for communicating the message that change from homosexuality or healing from gender identity confusion is possible. The bill uses the state’s consumer fraud statute as a means to penalize free speech on the issues of homosexuality and gender identity. It would impact the following for proclaiming a biblical view of homosexuality, and male and female, when a financial transaction takes place: Christian counselors Bookstores – whether in a building or online Christian schools and colleges Church conferences Publishers Medical and mental health care professionals Alliance Defending Freedom attorney Matt Sharp explains the implications: "California AB 2943 makes it unlawful for any person to sell books, counseling services, or anything else that helps someone overcome unwanted same-sex attraction or gender identity confusion. As a result, it could be a violation if a pastor encourages a congregant to visit the church book store to purchase books that help people address sexual issues, perhaps including the Bible itself, which teaches about the importance of sexual purity within the confines of marriage between a man and woman." If you have an opinion on the proposed legislation, please contact your state senator. The California Family Council has provided a link to contact your state Senator should you desire to ask him or her to oppose AB 2943 at https://californiafamily.ivolunteers.com/ContactOfficials/oppose-ab-2943?utm_source=California+Family+Alliance&utm_campaign=e00076bff6-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_04_23&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_a2a46f7a96-e00076bff6-49191729&mc_cid=e00076bff6&mc_eid=6150bfc779 Edited May 6, 2018 by JAHS
provoman Posted May 7, 2018 Author Posted May 7, 2018 3 hours ago, rpn said: Someone misused the church directory? I think that is what happened someone at a Stake level mass emailed the stake which included a political message 1
provoman Posted May 7, 2018 Author Posted May 7, 2018 2 hours ago, juliann said: I didn't. Seems more and more like it was a single stake where this happened. I wonder if the Church promotes or supports conversion therapies.
provoman Posted May 7, 2018 Author Posted May 7, 2018 3 hours ago, JAHS said: Here's what I got: A bill threatening free speech and religious freedom has passed the California State Assembly and is moving through the State Senate. AB 2943 is a wide-reaching piece of legislation that threatens churches and counselors with lawsuits for communicating the message that change from homosexuality or healing from gender identity confusion is possible. The bill uses the state’s consumer fraud statute as a means to penalize free speech on the issues of homosexuality and gender identity. It would impact the following for proclaiming a biblical view of homosexuality, and male and female, when a financial transaction takes place: Christian counselors Bookstores – whether in a building or online Christian schools and colleges Church conferences Publishers Medical and mental health care professionals Alliance Defending Freedom attorney Matt Sharp explains the implications: "California AB 2943 makes it unlawful for any person to sell books, counseling services, or anything else that helps someone overcome unwanted same-sex attraction or gender identity confusion. As a result, it could be a violation if a pastor encourages a congregant to visit the church book store to purchase books that help people address sexual issues, perhaps including the Bible itself, which teaches about the importance of sexual purity within the confines of marriage between a man and woman." If you have an opinion on the proposed legislation, please contact your state senator. The California Family Council has provided a link to contact your state Senator should you desire to ask him or her to oppose AB 2943 at https://californiafamily.ivolunteers.com/ContactOfficials/oppose-ab-2943?utm_source=California+Family+Alliance&utm_campaign=e00076bff6-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_04_23&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_a2a46f7a96-e00076bff6-49191729&mc_cid=e00076bff6&mc_eid=6150bfc779 yep that is the copy and paste from focus on the family
Hamba Tuhan Posted May 7, 2018 Posted May 7, 2018 1 hour ago, provoman said: I wonder if the Church promotes or supports conversion therapies. It seems to me that the broad principle of conversion is thoroughly embedded in Christian doctrine. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in future. One of our more 'progressive' opposition MPs recently went on record that, in government, she would act to ban churches teaching that people can/should change. Apparently it makes people feel bad and creates psychological harm. 1
The Nehor Posted May 7, 2018 Posted May 7, 2018 1 hour ago, provoman said: Seems more and more like it was a single stake where this happened. I wonder if the Church promotes or supports conversion therapies. They used to. Some relatively benign methods and some scary methods. Not sure how many of those programs are still around.
RevTestament Posted May 7, 2018 Posted May 7, 2018 15 hours ago, JAHS said: Here's what I got: A bill threatening free speech and religious freedom has passed the California State Assembly and is moving through the State Senate. AB 2943 is a wide-reaching piece of legislation that threatens churches and counselors with lawsuits for communicating the message that change from homosexuality or healing from gender identity confusion is possible. The bill uses the state’s consumer fraud statute as a means to penalize free speech on the issues of homosexuality and gender identity. It would impact the following for proclaiming a biblical view of homosexuality, and male and female, when a financial transaction takes place: Christian counselors Bookstores – whether in a building or online Christian schools and colleges Church conferences Publishers Medical and mental health care professionals Alliance Defending Freedom attorney Matt Sharp explains the implications: "California AB 2943 makes it unlawful for any person to sell books, counseling services, or anything else that helps someone overcome unwanted same-sex attraction or gender identity confusion. As a result, it could be a violation if a pastor encourages a congregant to visit the church book store to purchase books that help people address sexual issues, perhaps including the Bible itself, which teaches about the importance of sexual purity within the confines of marriage between a man and woman." If you have an opinion on the proposed legislation, please contact your state senator. The California Family Council has provided a link to contact your state Senator should you desire to ask him or her to oppose AB 2943 at https://californiafamily.ivolunteers.com/ContactOfficials/oppose-ab-2943?utm_source=California+Family+Alliance&utm_campaign=e00076bff6-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_04_23&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_a2a46f7a96-e00076bff6-49191729&mc_cid=e00076bff6&mc_eid=6150bfc779 I think this shows ultimately what this "war" is about. It's not a war about the right to have a sex change or the right to have a homosexual relationship, but a war over the minds of the people. It has clearly become a war over thought. I can't believe a state legislature would even pass such a bill. i would kick them all out on their cans for trying to take away my right of free speech.
Gray Posted May 7, 2018 Posted May 7, 2018 53 minutes ago, RevTestament said: I think this shows ultimately what this "war" is about. It's not a war about the right to have a sex change or the right to have a homosexual relationship, but a war over the minds of the people. It has clearly become a war over thought. I can't believe a state legislature would even pass such a bill. i would kick them all out on their cans for trying to take away my right of free speech. Next thing you know they're going to outlaw the practice of putting people to the water test for witchcraft. What is this world coming to?
RevTestament Posted May 7, 2018 Posted May 7, 2018 39 minutes ago, Gray said: Next thing you know they're going to outlaw the practice of putting people to the water test for witchcraft. What is this world coming to? Well, when they outlaw all the books talking about the practice of witchcraft, I'll say the world is coming to hell in a handbasket. But I am sure they would rather outlaw the sale of Bibles for condemning the practice of man lying with man, than outlaw books on witchcraft. 1
nuclearfuels Posted May 7, 2018 Posted May 7, 2018 Doesn't sound like an official email. Not sure CA is coming back regardless of whether that law passes or not.
RevTestament Posted May 7, 2018 Posted May 7, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: I think this shows ultimately what this "war" is about. It's not a war about the right to have a sex change or the right to have a homosexual relationship, but a war over the minds of the people. It has clearly become a war over thought. I can't believe a state legislature would even pass such a bill. i would kick them all out on their cans for trying to take away my right of free speech. I have not actually yet read this bill, but some feel the claim that this bill would outlaw sales of Christian books are unfounded. Perhaps the bill needs to be clarified by the legislature. Some feel a broad interpretation of the law could apply to SOCE goods sold, which could include the Christian books. Anthony Samson, a Sacramento-based attorney, told Snopes that the bill does not apply to sales of books nor would it prevent people from speaking or writing freely about conversion therapy. The bill applies to such conversion therapy as a “commercial service in exchange for monetary compensation.” Still, outlawing a therapy which people want to buy seems like a nanny state run amok. It's not something I favor. Perhaps some favor the days of the Salem witch trials. Edited May 7, 2018 by RevTestament 1
Gray Posted May 7, 2018 Posted May 7, 2018 26 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Well, when they outlaw all the books talking about the practice of witchcraft, I'll say the world is coming to hell in a handbasket. But I am sure they would rather outlaw the sale of Bibles for condemning the practice of man lying with man, than outlaw books on witchcraft. According to the chain letter, a financial transaction is required before the fraudulent, deceptive and unethical practice of conversion therapy and advocacy actually carries penalties, so it looks like everyone's free speech rights are secure. Fraud isn't protected by free speech. The actual proposal: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180AB2943 1
RevTestament Posted May 7, 2018 Posted May 7, 2018 8 minutes ago, Gray said: According to the chain letter, a financial transaction is required before the fraudulent, deceptive and unethical practice of conversion therapy and advocacy actually carries penalties, so it looks like everyone's free speech rights are secure. Fraud isn't protected by free speech. The actual proposal: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180AB2943 The sale of a book talking about conversion therapy is a financial transaction - I suppose hence the reaction to this bill. As I alluded in my last post, perhaps this bill needs to be clarified so as not to impinge upon free speech rights. Nevertheless, I am not in favor of declaring conversion therapy fraudulent despite its high failure rate. It's nanny state-ish. I think they could reasonably outlaw certain forms of treatment, however, such as electroshock therapy as ineffective or inhumane. That is within the right of the state to regulate public health. i encourage Californians to look closely at this bill, and not rely on this chain mail. To respond more directly to the OP, I get chain mails that appear to be pirated from email lists of people I know, so it wouldn't surprise me if a stake email list got pirated rather than some stake member intentionally misusing the stake email.
ALarson Posted May 7, 2018 Posted May 7, 2018 14 hours ago, provoman said: I wonder if the Church promotes or supports conversion therapies. I certainly hope not. And, according to these, they don't: https://www.advocate.com/religion/2016/10/26/mormon-church-comes-out-against-lgbt-conversion-therapy-new-website Quote “Many people pray for years and do all they can to be obedient in an effort to reduce same-sex attraction, yet find they are still attracted to the same sex,” the website reads. “A change in attraction should not be expected or demanded as an outcome by parents or leaders.” This statement is a reference to conversion therapy, the widely condemned practice of seeking to “change” the sexuality or gender identity of LGBT youth. https://religionnews.com/2016/03/17/mormon-statement-officially-denounces-abusive-conversion-therapy-lgbts/ Quote “The Church denounces any therapy that subjects an individual to abusive practices,” said LDS spokesman Eric Hawkins. “We hope those who experience the complex realities of same-sex attraction find compassion and understanding from family members, professional counselors and church members.”
JAHS Posted May 7, 2018 Posted May 7, 2018 41 minutes ago, RevTestament said: The sale of a book talking about conversion therapy is a financial transaction - I suppose hence the reaction to this bill. As I alluded in my last post, perhaps this bill needs to be clarified so as not to impinge upon free speech rights. Nevertheless, I am not in favor of declaring conversion therapy fraudulent despite its high failure rate. It's nanny state-ish. I think they could reasonably outlaw certain forms of treatment, however, such as electroshock therapy as ineffective or inhumane. That is within the right of the state to regulate public health. i encourage Californians to look closely at this bill, and not rely on this chain mail. To respond more directly to the OP, I get chain mails that appear to be pirated from email lists of people I know, so it wouldn't surprise me if a stake email list got pirated rather than some stake member intentionally misusing the stake email. The person who sent the email to our stake members was the Stake LDS Public Affairs person. I wouldn't call it an abuse of the stake email he was just informing us of the issue. 1
kllindley Posted May 7, 2018 Posted May 7, 2018 15 hours ago, provoman said: Seems more and more like it was a single stake where this happened. I wonder if the Church promotes or supports conversion therapies. 30 minutes ago, ALarson said: I certainly hope not. And, according to these, they don't: https://www.advocate.com/religion/2016/10/26/mormon-church-comes-out-against-lgbt-conversion-therapy-new-website https://religionnews.com/2016/03/17/mormon-statement-officially-denounces-abusive-conversion-therapy-lgbts/ So, this is an issue that I have a lot of personal and professional experience in. One of the major problems here is that there really is a major lack of communication and clarity around terms and intentions. For example, the idea of conversion therapy is a joke. The very few who might even remotely fit the criteria of claiming to turn gay people straight are widely recognized as extremists. But they aren't the target of legislation and activism like this. The actual wording gets very, very specific and therefore incredibly broad. It talks about ANY effort to change attraction or behavior. And any situation where money is involved with no religious exemptions. No supporters of this bill have even attempted to deny that counseling with a Bishop to reduce viewing gay pornography would be a violation of this law if that member pays tithing. The Church doesn't support efforts to turn LGBT individuals "straight." But they certainty do support efforts to repent and bring behavior in harmony with its teachings. That would be outlawed under this bill. 2
cinepro Posted May 7, 2018 Posted May 7, 2018 15 minutes ago, kllindley said: The Church doesn't support efforts to turn LGBT individuals "straight." But they certainty do support efforts to repent and bring behavior in harmony with its teachings. That would be outlawed under this bill. If so, we've come a long way in 20 years... Use gospel immersion to fight gay desires, LDS official says Granted, Evergreen folded a few years ago, but the ideas promoted for decades are not so easily eradicated from the culture or doctrines. As for the bill itself, it is really ground zero for a whole lot of questions about rights and freedoms, with no clear cut answer either way. Is "reparative therapy" harmful (or fraudulent) to the point that we need to the government to protect us from it? Is the pressure some people feel to try it so great that they've effectively given up their freedom to choose? 2
ALarson Posted May 7, 2018 Posted May 7, 2018 20 minutes ago, kllindley said: So, this is an issue that I have a lot of personal and professional experience in. One of the major problems here is that there really is a major lack of communication and clarity around terms and intentions. For example, the idea of conversion therapy is a joke. The very few who might even remotely fit the criteria of claiming to turn gay people straight are widely recognized as extremists. But they aren't the target of legislation and activism like this. The actual wording gets very, very specific and therefore incredibly broad. It talks about ANY effort to change attraction or behavior. And any situation where money is involved with no religious exemptions. No supporters of this bill have even attempted to deny that counseling with a Bishop to reduce viewing gay pornography would be a violation of this law if that member pays tithing. The Church doesn't support efforts to turn LGBT individuals "straight." But they certainty do support efforts to repent and bring behavior in harmony with its teachings. That would be outlawed under this bill. How could they outlaw encouraging repentance and living a celibate life? (Sincere question...I don't know much about this proposed law).
kllindley Posted May 7, 2018 Posted May 7, 2018 5 minutes ago, cinepro said: If so, we've come a long way in 20 years... Use gospel immersion to fight gay desires, LDS official says Granted, Evergreen folded a few years ago, but the ideas promoted for decades are not so easily eradicated from the culture or doctrines. As for the bill itself, it is really ground zero for a whole lot of questions about rights and freedoms, with no clear cut answer either way. Is "reparative therapy" harmful (or fraudulent) to the point that we need to the government to protect us from it? Is the pressure some people feel to try it so great that they've effectively given up their freedom to choose? Even Evergreen was not promoting conversion therapy, despite the attempts by the AP to make it sound that way. The focus was on overcoming behavior and decreasing desire. Desire is different from attraction. There is a lot of misinformation and lack of education around the topic. 2
kllindley Posted May 7, 2018 Posted May 7, 2018 12 minutes ago, ALarson said: How could they outlaw encouraging repentance and living a celibate life? (Sincere question...I don't know much about this proposed law). The bill defines “Sexual orientation change efforts” as “any practices that seek to change an individual’s sexual orientation. This includes efforts to change behaviors or gender expressions, or to eliminate or reduce sexual or romantic attractions or feelings toward individuals of the same sex” 2
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