Are families assigned, chosen, or random?

[asbestosman]

Given that families are central in the church--so much so that spouses are sealed to each other and to their children--how are these things determined for children?

Are children assigned to particular birth parents? Adoptive parents? Are children able to choose parents, or parents children whether on Earth or before? Can assignments be changed based on the actions of parents or external political / environmental changes before the children are conceived?

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, asbestosman said:

Given that families are central in the church--so much so that spouses are sealed to each other and to their children--how are these things determined for children?

Are children assigned to particular birth parents? Adoptive parents? Are children able to choose parents, or parents children whether on Earth or before? Can assignments be changed based on the actions of parents or external political / environmental changes before the children are conceived?

Wow, been awhile.

I suspect some are assigned, a few perhaps....the rest, who knows.  Maybe it is like organ transplants, there may be many matches and you go to the one that is first available/top of the list when it's time for you to be born.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

nevermind- misunderstanding

Edited March 27, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

Why who gets sent to whom...that is how I am interpreting the comment.  Hopefully he can clarify.

[mfbukowski]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Why who gets sent to whom...that is how I am interpreting the comment.  Hopefully he can clarify.

Agree.  At first I thought it was about whether or not one can choose one's "parents" even if not your natural parents for sealing purposes.

I can imagine some people might want to do that in certain cases of abuse etc.

[JLHPROF]

I believe there were familial covenants made before we came here but that adjustments have had to be made due to agency.

Brigham Young Vision

Be sure to tell the people to keep the Spirit of the Lord; and if they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in Heaven, before they came into the world. Our Father in Heaven organized the human family, but they are all disorganized and in great confusion.” Joseph then showed me the pattern, how they were in the beginning. This I cannot describe, but I saw it, and saw when the Priesthood had been taken from the earth, and how it must be joined together so as to make a perfect chain from Father Adam to his latest posterity.

John Taylor's Origin and Destiny of Woman

Thou being willing and anxious to imitate them, waiting and desirous to obtain a body, a resurrection and exaltation also, and having obtained permission, madest a covenant with one of thy kindred spirits to be thy guardian angel while in mortality, also with two others, male and female spirits, that thou wouldst come and take a tabernacle through their lineage, and become one of their offspring.  You also chose a kindred spirit whom you loved in the spirit world to be your head, stay, husband and protector on the earth and to exalt you in eternal worlds.  All these were arranged, likewise the spirits that should tabernacle through your lineage.

[Calm]

"Joseph then showed me the pattern, how they were in the beginning. This I cannot describe..."

Which would seem to suggest it was something very different from any family arrangement we have here on earth as that is describable, especially the ideal family and how the family trees branch forward and root backward.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Calm

[asbestosman]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Why who gets sent to whom...that is how I am interpreting the comment.

Yes, that is my question.

[asbestosman]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

I believe there were familial covenants made before we came here but that adjustments have had to be made due to agency.

That seems to fit most of what I've read / heard.

Quote

You also chose a kindred spirit whom you loved in the spirit world to be your head, stay, husband and protector on the earth and to exalt you in eternal worlds.  All these were arranged, likewise the spirits that should tabernacle through your lineage.

That seems to imply soulmates which, as I recall, was something Spencer W. Kimball declared was a myth.

Edited March 27, 2018 by asbestosman

[Thinking]

When I read the thread title, the soundtracks from Saturday's Warrior and My Turn On Earth started playing in my head.

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Thinking said:

When I read the thread title, the soundtracks from Saturday's Warrior and My Turn On Earth started playing in my head.

You may need therapy. Do not delay. Those songs can cause serious damage.

[CV75]

9 hours ago, asbestosman said:

Given that families are central in the church--so much so that spouses are sealed to each other and to their children--how are these things determined for children?

Are children assigned to particular birth parents? Adoptive parents? Are children able to choose parents, or parents children whether on Earth or before? Can assignments be changed based on the actions of parents or external political / environmental changes before the children are conceived?

Ultimately any sealing relationship must be ratified by the Holy Spirit of Promise in order to continue on eternally, and this will not happen without the the consent of all parties involved.

I think the families and circumstances through which we enter mortality also involves mutual consent. "[God] hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." (Acts 17:2-28)

As we know, not all that has been consented to plays out perfectly in this world, no more than all that we promised to honor and do. For example, those who give birth as a result of violence against their agency may not have consented to such an arrangement, and that reflects the horrors that can be perpetrated in a fallen world where Satan is not bound. Yet healing and proper order are offered in the long run through the Atonement of Christ.

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, asbestosman said:

That seems to imply soulmates which, as I recall, was something Spencer W. Kimball declared was a myth.

Kimball said it was a myth.  Taylor said it wasn't.  Both prophets.  No official revelation.

I see no reason we have to believe one prophet over the other.  It might be true, it might not.  But a third prophet Brigham Young saw families organized by God in vision of the premortal.

That would indicate previous covenant relationships as John Taylor described.  For me our premortal existence wasn't all that different from our lives here.  I lean towards Young and Taylor for a variety of reasons.  But you are welcome to lean Kimball if you want.

[JAHS]

 We know that people have been foreordained to fulfill certain roles in God's kingdom on earth (Abr 3: 22-23, D&C 138: 55). With regards to assignment to parents and families, people have speculated about this over the centuries, and mostly all we have are a few hints from the scriptures and prophets that there might have been be some reason for some people being placed in a certain family or condition on earth.

In Acts:
"And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;" (Acts 17:26)

So according to Paul many spirits may have been foreordained to specific nations and generations ("bounds of habitation"), as well as perhaps to families and to varied assignments, work, or missions on earth. Our pre-mortal spirits were just as different there as people are here, which might be a factor in determining when and under what conditions we are sent to earth. 

Also:
"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (Alma 13:28-29) 

God will not test us beyond our ability, which might mean that He will not send our spirits into a family or condition on earth that we cannot handle, based on who we were in the pre-mortal life. 

I know of no official doctrine that specifically tells us we made our own choice as to who our parents would be. There is evidence to indicate that there is, at least in certain cases, foreordination to favored families. President Harold B. Lee affirmed that, generally, we come to certain families as a reward or blessing for our premortal lives. Undoubtedly, premortal assignment to specific families is based also on what is best for individual and familial growth and development and what will best further the works and purposes of God.(Harold B. Lee, in Conference Report, October 1973, p. 7.)

While there is evidence of at least some degree of foreordination to families, President Joseph Fielding Smith taught that there was "no scriptural justification... for the belief that we had the privilege of choosing our parents and our life companions in the spirit world." (Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1972), p. 44). 

Addressing this issue in a talk given to seminary and institute teachers in 1966, Elder Harold B. Lee stated that "we have no revealed word" on the extent to which premortal choices of family members were made. He then cautioned that we should not accept or teach ideas that cannot be firmly established in the standard works or by inspired utterances of the living prophets. In 1971, the First Presidency once again declared that "we have no revealed word to the effect that when we were in the preexistent state we chose our parents and our husbands and wives." (The First Presidency, 1971, as cited in Steve F. Gilliland, "I Have a Question," Ensign, June 1977, p. 40.)

President Joseph Fielding Smith stated: "This belief has been advocated by some, and it is possible that in some instances it is true, but it would require too great a stretch of the imagination to believe it to be so in all, or even in the majority of cases. Most likely we came where those in authority decided to send us. Our agency may not have been exercised to the extent of making choice of parents and posterity." (Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, pp. 44-45). 

[hope_for_things]

11 hours ago, asbestosman said:

Given that families are central in the church--so much so that spouses are sealed to each other and to their children--how are these things determined for children?

Are children assigned to particular birth parents? Adoptive parents? Are children able to choose parents, or parents children whether on Earth or before? Can assignments be changed based on the actions of parents or external political / environmental changes before the children are conceived?

Saturday's Warrior theology is fun, and a big part of my childhood imaginations, but I can't think of any official church positions on any of these items.  

[Rain]

21 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Kimball said it was a myth.  Taylor said it wasn't.  Both prophets.  No official revelation.

I see no reason we have to believe one prophet over the other.  It might be true, it might not.  But a third prophet Brigham Young saw families organized by God in vision of the premortal.

That would indicate previous covenant relationships as John Taylor described.  For me our premortal existence wasn't all that different from our lives here.  I lean towards Young and Taylor for a variety of reasons.  But you are welcome to lean Kimball if you want.

Speaking only from my own experience here,  I think they all can be right. 

I strongly felt/feel that Heavenly Father thought my husband and I should be together through experiences I had. I also felt strongly that I was not to say anything to DH about this till after he asked me. 

Nearly 4 years later I wasn't sure that DH would ever desire that. I began to realize that though DH and I would work very well together that God would not override the agency of either of us and I felt at peace that there were others who would fit well with me as well. 

I finally prayed on a Sunday and asked if my impressions about DH were right and if they were I would wait, but if not I would like to know so I could find someone else. I feel blessed that he decided and asked that Saturday.

So it makes complete sense to me that there is a pattern of how families are organized and I don't think that goes against what President Kimball said. Soul mates imply to me that you can only truly be happy with one person.I think you can be truly happy with a number of people, but there is something in place that makes a "pattern" of it. 

Gospel according to Patty.

[strappinglad]

I have read the stories of young children who had NDEs and saw siblings waiting in the spirit world to come to the family. For what ever that is worth , it may be evidence of predetermined family connections. Personally, I think that is likely the exception rather than the rule.

[Stargazer]

32 minutes ago, Rain said:

Speaking only from my own experience here,  I think they all can be right. 

I strongly felt/feel that Heavenly Father thought my husband and I should be together through experiences I had. I also felt strongly that I was not to say anything to DH about this till after he asked me. 

Nearly 4 years later I wasn't sure that DH would ever desire that. I began to realize that though DH and I would work very well together that God would not override the agency of either of us and I felt at peace that there were others who would fit well with me as well. 

I finally prayed on a Sunday and asked if my impressions about DH were right and if they were I would wait, but if not I would like to know so I could find someone else. I feel blessed that he decided and asked that Saturday.

So it makes complete sense to me that there is a pattern of how families are organized and I don't think that goes against what President Kimball said. Soul mates imply to me that you can only truly be happy with one person.I think you can be truly happy with a number of people, but there is something in place that makes a "pattern" of it. 

Gospel according to Patty.

Lovely story!

I had two such experiences in my married life. The first with my late wife and the second with her who became my wife after I was widowed.  But you're right, I am sure I could have been happy with others, if it had come to that.

[The Nehor]

God knows who is going to who what with knowing the end from the beginning. I have my doubts about assignments given in premortality.

Birth Coordinator: ”Sam, you will be born to Rachel here afterJoe Bob here rapes her.”

All three: ”Wait.....what?”

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

God knows who is going to who what with knowing the end from the beginning. I have my doubts about assignments given in premortality.

Birth Coordinator: ”Sam, you will be born to Rachel here afterJoe Bob here rapes her.”

All three: ”Wait.....what?”

You write this to mock.  You don't think a spirit child is made aware their destination before being sent to earth?  

Or you don't believe God can know the future events of our life here?

For me, the more important question is a broader one. What effects did our premortal choices and actions have on our situation here.  We'd be foolish (and ignore scripture) to believe they didn't.

[rpn]

It is simply logically impossible for anyone to have determined before we came to earth what family everyone would be born into, if we were to have agency.   We know from the scriptures that there are a few who were sent to specific homes and/or lineages.  

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

You write this to mock.  You don't think a spirit child is made aware their destination before being sent to earth?  

Or you don't believe God can know the future events of our life here?

For me, the more important question is a broader one. What effects did our premortal choices and actions have on our situation here.  We'd be foolish (and ignore scripture) to believe they didn't.

I have no idea how much advance knowledge we get but the idea that we were all told long in advance how we would get here suggests God told us the whole ugly truth of everything in advance or that the plan was altered due to our sins. I know God knew it all in advance but it seems odd to say he told us everything in advance because if he did this is the kind of thing they were all told.

Edited March 27, 2018 by The Nehor

[asbestosman]

18 hours ago, Thinking said:

When I read the thread title, the soundtracks from Saturday's Warrior and My Turn On Earth started playing in my head.

Truth be told, I recently had a friend watch Saturday's Warrior with me. At least she used to be a friend. She also happens to be a big fan of adoption.

[mfbukowski]

When I first saw my wife she looked familiar and I looked familiar to her as well

We had  never met.  I knew we would be married on our first date and started  crying in the movie.  She thought I was  nuts.

Then she taught me Mormonism and eternal progression and it fit  perfectly with my philosophy.  Stick the fork in- we were both well done.

I still don't believe it happened.  But who knows- its only been 38 years so anything could  happen. 

She is the smartest  person I never met.  She  actually understands my philosophy after one explanation.  If we did not know each other before and covenant to find each other  here, I don't know how it could  have happened.

The first meeting was totally totally "by chance" while I was dropping off my existing girlfriend at work  (we had broken up but she needed a ride ) and lightning struck.

[asbestosman]

4 hours ago, rpn said:

It is simply logically impossible for anyone to have determined before we came to earth what family everyone would be born into, if we were to have agency.   We know from the scriptures that there are a few who were sent to specific homes and/or lineages.  

Indeed the scriptures do show that some families/lineages were foreordained. Yet that alone has implications for agency. Regardless of the answer to that riddle, I still wonder what the implications are of being adopted vs born into a family. Or indeed why Abraham might be born to apostate parents. Do we know anything about which adoptive parents Abraham might be sealed to?