MormonLeaks: Former Mormon Mission President Admitting to Inappropriate Interactions with Women

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Just my own experience with family members and friends...the most truthful people you will ever meet..are recovering alcoholics..they live by it...or they will die by it.

I have a family member whose alcoholism has caused some brain damage and so I’m wary (not on their honesty but on their mental abilities if the abuse was severe enough). 

[Jeanne]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I have a family member whose alcoholism has caused some brain damage and so I’m wary (not on their honesty but on their mental abilities if the abuse was severe enough). 

Not many get to the brain damage stage before rehabilitation..IMO...but I am sorry that your family member went through this and its affects on others.  My sister was an alcoholic..she was kind..truthful..and then on New Year's Eve..her ex handed her a bottle.  She died that night after many months without alcohol.  This is not a good example anyway..and I admit that what may be my experience will not be the same as others. Because she faltered that night..she took her own life..

Edited March 21, 2018 by Jeanne

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, rockpond said:

All good and fair statements.

Does the possibility that the woman's accusations and Bishop's admissions are true give you any pause?

Before I read the local leadership had interviewed him, I was pretty certain something had happened.  With Taylor's independent 1980 commentary it seemed more likely he didn't relate to women in all positive or neutral ways, though of course she could have been misinterpreting his behaviour because of her own hangups and inflating what was going on.

Now I have read more material and am getting hints of dementia throughout (not following the woman's train of thought at all at times, but not asking for clarification; grandiose what appears to me set pieces; gushing over the woman when there is no reason for him to do so as in 'such a great writer' as if he knows her well; throwing out possibilities to identify her with a vague memory when he can't remember her so he can place her in some context; etc.), the Church reports he has been interviewed about the allegations, after reading the woman's comment that suggests at least some of her memories are "recovered" plus the final piece (so far) of him being on painkillers after surgery, I am more open to it being an almost complete creation (he obviously has some sexual thoughts, but who doesn't).

Otoh, he could be quite sharp and it could be a farce....but if he was on pain medication for heart surgery, I don't see him as likely capable of playing such a consistent game.  For me the medication removes the likelihood of it being an act.  Older people are much more susceptible to issues with opiates and other mind altering drugs.

He has undoubtedly had fantasies/sexual thoughts or he would not be describing inappropriate stuff; the problem is knowing if the fantasy is recent (and possibly triggered by being asked about an attempted rape and other stuff) or longterm and if longterm, ever acted upon.  I don't think that will be possible to prove.  If he is innocent and it is purely age/dementia, it is very sad and tragic.  If he isn't innocent of all claims, it is horrible for his family and unfortunate for him to encounter this (though if he has dementia he may not have a clue there is an actual problem), but this would be a consequence of his own actions at least to a certain extent ( if guilty of the extreme claims, it is his full responsibility imo).

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Not many get to the brain damage stage before rehabilitation..IMO...but I am sorry that your family member went through this and its affects on others.  My sister was an alcoholic..she was kind..truthful..and then on New Year's Eve..her ex handed her a bottle. 

That is just evil.  It must have affected you deeply.

[pogi]

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

She's not being accused on misconduct.  She is doing the accusing against another person.  All other things being equal, as between a "benefit of the doubt" for the accused and a "benefit of the doubt" for the accuser, the former has to predominate.  It has to.  

Put yourself in the crosshairs, Rockpond.  Suppose someone made unsubstantiated accusations of rape against you.  Or a loved one.  Wouldn't you want that "benefit of the doubt?"

Thanks,

-Smac

On the other hand, if it was your daughter making claims of rape from an ecclesiastical leader, would you want to give her the benefit of the doubt?

There are certainly many reasons to doubt her story, but there are also things that give me pause:

1) There is no apparent motive for her accusation.  She has never before sought monetary or legal ramifications (as she has in other cases), but instead just wanted to be heard and believed.  Why? Her motive is not to malign the church, otherwise she would have gone public.  She did not approve Mormonleaks or go to the media.  Instead she kept it private between her and her ecclesiastical leaders for all these years. 

2) If this did not occur, why would she single out Bishop specifically?  Why go after such a high ranking leader that you briefly met during a couple month stay at the MTC, if your purpose was not to malign the church?  What is the cause of her anger towards Bishop?  She threatened to kill him after all.  That doesn't come from nowhere.  Either she is crazy, or she might be telling the truth.  I don't have enough information yet to judge.  So I am not going to give anyone the benefit of the doubt in this case.  I think it is best that we all suspend judgment for both parties, until further information is revealed.

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

That is just evil.  It must have affected you deeply.

It did...I will never forgive him..she had made big plans for her life and in her purse was tickets for her and mom for cruise!!  She felt her failure in that bottle..and took her own life. 

[ttribe]

53 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

"Latter-day Saints do not expect God to simply hand down information. He expects us to wrestle with the complications of life through prayerful searching and sound thinking."

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormon-and-modern

By implication, then, not one of the people who interviewed the man for each of his callings had engaged in "prayerful searching and sound thinking" as they exercised their duties and fulfilled their responsibilities to call a worthy person?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

sounds like they've been dealing with this since the 1980's, what is God waiting for?

Only if the woman's accusations are accurate unless I have missed something (I am behind and now am reading the thread backwards to catch up).  If fabricated, it is only since 2010 and there was no reason for them to do more (if she is lying, there is no legal way for the Church to get involved in forcing her to get care).

If Bishop is no longer on pain medication, he may be much more lucid.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Calm

[juliann]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

 

The most disturbing thing to me is the the idea that this girl is experienced with accusing men falsely of this particular crime. If that were true, then all credibility of the accuser would be lost and there would be no hope of prosecuting the case unless a more credible witness were to appear. 

 

What IS it with men calling a 55 year old woman a "girl"??? 

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Not many get to the brain damage stage before rehabilitation..IMO...but I am sorry that your family member went through this and its affects on others.  My sister was an alcoholic..she was kind..truthful..and then on New Year's Eve..her ex handed her a bottle.  She died that night after many months without alcohol.  This is not a good example anyway..and I admit that what may be my experience will not be the same as others. Because she faltered that night..she took her own life..

How sad!  I’m so sorry. Addiction is so hard to understand. 

My husband’s dad died because of cirrhosis of the liver in his 40s. Such a waste. 

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, pogi said:

On the other hand, if it was your daughter making claims of rape from an ecclesiastical leader, would you want to give her the benefit of the doubt?

There are certainly many reasons to doubt her story, but there are also things that give me pause:

1) There is no apparent motive for her accusation.  She has never before sought monetary or legal ramifications (as she has in other cases), but instead just wanted to be heard and believed.  Why? Her motive is not to malign the church, otherwise she would have gone public.  She did not approve Mormonleaks or go to the media.  Instead she kept it private between her and her ecclesiastical leaders for all these years. 

2) If this did not occur, why would she single out Bishop specifically?  Why go after such a high ranking leader that you briefly met during a couple month stay at the MTC, if your purpose was not to malign the church?  What is the cause of her anger towards Bishop?  She threatened to kill him after all.  That doesn't come from nowhere.  Either she is crazy, or she might be telling the truth.  I don't have enough information yet to judge.  So I am not going to give anyone the benefit of the doubt in this case.  I think it is best that we all suspend judgment for both parties, until further information is revealed.

1) this is according to her on the tape, right?  Therefore it may not be true.  Plus she herself could be mentally disturbed or have memory issues (I would really like to know if she was referring to this being a recovered memory), 2) she may be substituting him as someone safe for someone else she subconsciously is too afraid to confront (I am not saying this is likely, but just pointing out there may be motivation without him being guilty).

I am, I think, suspending judgement because I am in a "just don't know" state.  We definitely need more info to get to a place where judgment can be fair.  Unless other women come forward and their stories are credible, I don't see it as likely we will get there.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Calm

[ksfisher]

7 minutes ago, ttribe said:

By implication, then, not one of the people who interviewed the man for each of his callings had engaged in "prayerful searching and sound thinking" as they exercised their duties and fulfilled their responsibilities to call a worthy person?

You're presuming guilt.

As a general rule though, God does work through imperfect people.

[juliann]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

When I said disturbing, I was trying to imagine myself taking this girl's case. 

Just stop! A middle aged woman is not a "girl!" Be respectful.

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

It did...I will never forgive him..she had made big plans for her life and in her purse was tickets for her and mom for cruise!!  She felt her failure in that bottle..and took her own life. 

Oh Jeanne, I am so so sorry.

Life is such a hell sometimes.

[ttribe]

1 minute ago, ksfisher said:

You're presuming guilt.

As a general rule though, God does work through imperfect people.

Fine, apply this same question to George P. Lee.

I'm aware of the imperfection of people.  But, if there are repeated opportunities within the framework of the Church for the Spirit to intervene and stem the number of victims, where is the break down?

[juliann]

The unmentioned villain here is Mormonleaks. This woman didn't release this. It sounds like she was doing the appropriate thing by using a lawyer. She is likely a troubled soul to begin with and now Mormonleaks has set her up for exposure and ridicule.  What they have done is repulsive and abusive.

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, juliann said:

Just stop! A middle aged woman is not a "girl!" Be respectful.

Yeah, my wife appreciates me calling her a girl on occasion. But other people, not so much. 

[Calm]

57 minutes ago, rockpond said:

It's interesting to me that so many people will assume he is innocent and just suffering from dementia (which IS a possible conclusion) but they won't give the same benefit of the doubt to the woman and accept that her version of events could be true.

Just because he is suffering from dementia does not mean he is innocent.

And the woman may be in the habit of accusing men because of the abuse...iirc, she had as a youth been abused by a relative (that is allegedly how she got to know Bishop well, though being counseled for that).  Abuse victims are frequently targeted multiple times by different people.  Their vulnerability makes them easy targets and people may find it hard to believe someone was a rape victim multiple times if they don't understand this.  Early abuse may have led to promiscuity or lying behaviour.  It can often be a vicious, self destructive cycle.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Calm

[Jeanne]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

How sad!  I’m so sorry. Addiction is so hard to understand. 

My husband’s dad died because of cirrhosis of the liver in his 40s. Such a waste. 

I am sorry for you father in law...it is a waste..of talent..and so many things.  I am lucky that I am "Aunt Jeanne Grandma" to the grand children she has never met.  I know that she would have done the same for me..take care of family.  Hugs..bluebell.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, juliann said:

The unmentioned villain here is Mormonleaks. This woman didn't release this. It sounds like she was doing the appropriate thing by using a lawyer. She is likely a troubled soul to begin with and now Mormonleaks has set her up for exposure and ridicule.  What they have done is repulsive and abusive.

Depends on how they got it, I suppose. Ryan isn’t the kind of person who would take advantage of someone like that. 

[6EQUJ5]

15 minutes ago, juliann said:

What IS it with men calling a 55 year old woman a "girl"??? 

 In my own mind I picture a "girl" or "young woman" simply because that's when the events happened and how she describes herself at that time. But of course, a 55 year old woman is certainly not a "girl."

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

On the other hand, if it was your daughter making claims of rape from an ecclesiastical leader, would you want to give her the benefit of the doubt?

Yes, but I would not expect anyone else to.  I would want those in authority to adhere to a presumption of innocence, due process obligations, the whole enchilada.

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

There are certainly many reasons to doubt her story, but there are also things that give me pause:

1) There is no apparent motive for her accusation. 

Yes, there is.  She apparently has a criminal history, including asserting sex assault allegations against ten other men.  That's an "apparent motive."

And then there's plenty of room for speculation about other potential motives, though.  Mental illness.  Confabulation.

Or she could be telling the truth.

We just don't know.

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

She has never before sought monetary or legal ramifications (as she has in other cases), but instead just wanted to be heard and believed.  Why? 

Perhaps she was still in Phase 1 of a plan, which was foiled when MormonLeaks released it without her consent.

Or perhaps she had no such plan, and instead "just wanted to beheard and believed."

We just don't know.

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

Her motive is not to malign the church, otherwise she would have gone public. 

Extortion/blackmail is not off the table, though, is it?  After all, maybe she just hadn't gone public yet, but her plan was preempted/spoiled when MormonLeaks released it without her consent.

Or perhaps she had no desire to malign the Church.

We just don't know.

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

She did not approve Mormonleaks or go to the media.  

So she says.  Maybe she regrets giving it to WikiLeaks, and so now denies doing so.

Maybe she shared the audio file with a friend, who in turn gave it to WikiLeaks.

Or perhaps she did not approve of MormonLeaks releasing it.

We just don't know.

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

Instead she kept it private between her and her ecclesiastical leaders for all these years. 

Well, perhaps not.  From page 74:

Quote

I have his number. I have your bishop's number. I have not reached out to anyone. I reached out to you, and I reached out to my attorney, and that's all I've done. Well that's not all I've done. I've contacted the police in [inaudible 02:39:26] who said that the statute of limitations has not run, and if I wanted to pursue a criminal investigation, I could, and my attorneys said if I wanted to continue with a private suit, I could. So I have done some background. But yeah, I didn't come here ignorant. I did some checking before I came.

This one creates a real credibility problem for her.

First, the statute of limitations has run.  

Second, I am very skeptical that "the police" told her that the statute of limitations has not run.

Third, I am also very skeptical that "the police" would leave it up to the woman as to whether "to pursue a criminal investigation."  That's generally up to the police and the prosecutor.

Fourth, I am skeptical that she has spoken to the police, because of points 2 and 3 above.  In other words, she probably lied about this.

Fifth, I am likewise skeptical that "attorneys" have told her that she could pursue a civil suit 33 years after the assault.  And this, in turn, makes me skeptical that she spoke with attorneys at all, and so is lying (or else she is lying about what they said).

So if we believe her, then she didn't "{keep} in private between her and her ecclesiastical leaders," or else we don't believe her, in which she may have "kept it private between her and her ecclesiastical leaders for all these years."

In other words, the only way your assertion holds is if you assume the woman lied.  

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

2) If this did not occur, why would she single out Bishop specifically? 

"Single out?"  How do you figure?  What if she really does have a history of shakedowns (ten other men)?  

Or perhaps she singled him out because he did something wrong.

We just don't know.

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

Why go after such a high ranking leader that you briefly met during a couple month stay at the MTC, if your purpose was not to malign the church? 

Well, there's the whole shakedown angle.  Or mental illness.  Or confabulation.  Or some combination of these.

Or perhaps she is telling the truth.

We just don't know.

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

What is the cause of her anger towards Bishop?  She threatened to kill him after all.  That doesn't come from nowhere.  Either she is crazy, or she might be telling the truth. 

Or it could have been an aborted shakedown attempt.

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don't have enough information yet to judge. 

Agreed.  Better to withhold judgment, I think.

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

So I am not going to give anyone the benefit of the doubt in this case. 

I am.  I am giving Bro. Bishop a presumption of innocence.  As a practical matter.  I will otherwise leave this matter to those who have stewardship over him.

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think it is best that we all suspend judgment for both parties, until further information is revealed.

Agreed.

Thanks,

-Smac

[HappyJackWagon]

56 minutes ago, smac97 said:

She's not being accused on misconduct.  She is doing the accusing against another person.  All other things being equal, as between a "benefit of the doubt" for the accused and a "benefit of the doubt" for the accuser, the former has to predominate.  It has to.  

Put yourself in the crosshairs, Rockpond.  Suppose someone made unsubstantiated accusations of rape against you.  Or a loved one.  Wouldn't you want that "benefit of the doubt?"

Thanks,

-Smac

Are you sure about that? It seems she's being accused of all kinds of things; Manipulating an innocent old man, falsely accusing 10 other men etc. People seem willing to accept the accusations against her because it's impossible to think that her accusations against Bishop could be true. This woman is getting very little benefit of the doubt that she may be telling the truth.

 

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I am sorry for you father in law...it is a waste..of talent..and so many things.  I am lucky that I am "Aunt Jeanne Grandma" to the grand children she has never met.  I know that she would have done the same for me..take care of family.  Hugs..bluebell.

Hugs to you too as well. 💕

[Calm]

4 hours ago, cinepro said:

Maybe it's my lack of imagination, but I don't believe that even under those circumstances anyone would answer the question "Did you molest her?" by saying "yes" if "yes" wasn't the truthful answer.    

https://www.innocenceproject.org/causes/false-confessions-admissions/

"Astonishingly, more than 1 out of 4 people wrongfully convicted but later exonerated by DNA evidence made a false confession or incriminating statement..."

add-on:  I see this is already posted...to add something 'useful', I will suggest that the reason Bishop adds confession of other stuff may be because he is trying to be helpful and starts filling in gaps with stuff he can imagine he did (whether this is because he has dementia or because he really was that kind of person st heart, who knows).  If it is dementia, it becomes reality for him.  While the cases I am aware of are accusations against others, I can see it as possible one might turn paranoia on oneself.  I will have to do more research to see this is possible (I know of many TV shows based on the idea...old guys wandering in and confessing to murder where it turns out they were witnesses long ago, but that might be pure storytelling)

https://www.alz.org/care/alzheimers-dementia-suspicion-delusions.asp

"Delusions (firmly held beliefs in things that are not real) may occur in middle- to late-stage Alzheimer's. Confusion and memory loss — such as the inability to remember certain people or objects — can contribute to these untrue beliefs. A person with Alzheimer's may believe a family member is stealing his or her possessions or that he or she is being followed by the police. Although not grounded in reality, the situation is very real to the person with dementia. Keep in mind that a person with dementia is trying to make sense of his or her world with declining cognitive function."

Or he may be guilty.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Calm